Replies

1. 
   Rich14 | Dec 31, 2004 09:48am | #1

   John,

   Your observation that lacquer "seems like a nice finish," has to be the understatement of the year. Aside from shellac, lacquer, properly applied is the finest finish you can put on the surface of wood. But, like shellac, it takes a lot of practice to learn to do it right.

   Poly was invented to fill the needs that shellac and lacquer can't answer and that is extreme abrasion resistance at the expense of delicate beauty.

   The classic lacquer preparation is nitrocellulose (more properly, cellulose nitrate). It can be applied as thin as a wipe on oil look, or as deep and heavy as a traditional "piano finish." It is beautiful and durable and resistant to alcohol, water and alkalai. But it can be scratched and it yellows with age. Yellowing is fine on darker woods, but a lot of finishers don't like the effect on light woods, especially maple.

   Acrylic-cellulose acetate butyrate (Acrylic-CAB) is a more modern, water-white, non yellowing lacquer. It's also more durable than nitrocellulose.

   Both of the above can be used by novices to learn lacquer finishing with both traditional spray equipment as well as HVLP up to the highest degerees of competence.

   A recently-developed class of lacquers are the catalyzed types which require professional gear and know-how. Catalyzed laquers are the most durable.

   Meticulous surface preparation of the wood is necessary, as laquer will reveal the smallest of imperfections. Sand to 320 and inspect for sanding imperfections by wetting the wood with mineral spirits or alcohol. Keep working until no dings, nicks or scratches remain. Seal the surface with the lacquer manufacturer's recommendation of "lacquer sanding sealer." These sealers usually contain stearates which make sanding very easy. They also contain resins other than the lacquer itself such as vinyl or alkyds which hold the wood fibers for final sanding of any remaining raised grain. These resins also promote adhesion of the lacquer to the wood. De-waxed shellac is also a very good lacquer sanding sealer but is harder to use than a lacquer's matching lacquer sanding sealer.

   You don't have to sand between every coat of laquer, as each successive coat "burns into" (disolves) the underlying layer. Ultimately, the built-up lacquer film is one continuous coat thicker than each application by the number of applications. But you can't apply lacquer with no sanding at all. A good method of work is to spray 3 thin coats, each about 20 minutes apart. After the third coat, let the finish harden overnight and sand with 400 grit open coat paper. Repeat 3 additional coats, wait overnight and sand again. Then apply 3 more coats, let stand for several days, if not weeks, and sand with 600 grit wet or dry, lubricated with water plus a drop of dishwater detergent per quart. Then 800 grit, then 1200 grit, then automotive rubbing compound then polishing compound and swirl remover. For a satin finish, stop rubbing at 600 grit.

   There are numerous books, articles here and articles on the internet fully describing every nuance of lacquer application.

   Good luck.

   Rich

1. 
   WillGeorge | Dec 31, 2004 02:01pm | #3

   'I have never used it' (should I be quiet?) but I understand Minwax has a brushing lacquer filler and Clear Brushing Lacquer. I just thought it could be useful to you. I have emailed minwax on several questions about their products and have always received a answer (may take awhile). I just thought it may be easier to start with than spraying for starters. But then again I never got spraying down pat and usually end up with a mess.

   I wanted to try the prushing lacquer product but I can't find it locally..  I'll keep looking..

    

1. 
   ryang | Dec 31, 2004 06:41pm | #4

   I must disagree about brushing on laquer.  The fact that laquer is sprayed on is one of it's best attributes, as you never have to worry about brush marks.  I've always found spraying to be quite easy, and less time consuming than brushing or wiping too.  Here's my basic process:

   -prep sand to perfection (or until you start to question your mental health), spray one one coat, do a really light sanding, do another coat, sand, maybe one more coat, and then leave it for at least a week.  After a week, rub it out with the finest steel wool you can find (though wet sanding, as stated previously, would also be a good choice).  I also apply a good coat of wax on top of laquer, because it seems to mellow the finish out a bit.

    

2. 
   Rich14 | Dec 31, 2004 09:19pm | #7

   Will,I agree with Ryan that brushing lacquer defeats one of its best properties. Any lacquer can be brushed, but most lacquers are formulated to be sprayed. The combination of solvents and thinners is made to evaporate in a sequence and timing that lets the film level itself and avoid sags and runs in a way that is characteristic for each type.Deft Clear Finish is a brushing (or spraying) lacquer that is available at any Ace, Lowes or Home Depot.Spraying is not that hard. It's really a shame that so many people are afraid of it or continue to have poor results with it. It's sort of like riding a bike. You can't do it, you can't do it, you can't do it. Then one time things fall in place and you have one of those, "Oh, so this is how it's done, why didn't anybody tell me to do it like this in the first place?" experiences. From that point you only fall off the bike a few more times before bike riding (or lacquer spraying) becomes something you do without really thinking about all the little details that make it happen.There are several "secrets" to spraying. Not that they are secrets in the sense that professional finishers won't divulge them, but secrets in the sense that until you do it in a very, very particular way, it just dosen't work. Do it right and it works every single time. In fact, it's really very, very hard to do it wrong. Spraying is so superior to any (and I really mean ANY) other method of applying a surface film to wood, that once you learn how to do it, you won't want to brush ever again.The first secret is that you must position yourself so that you see the spray hitting the surface of the wood. This sounds so simple and obvious as not to need comment. But every time I've helped someone who was having trouble spraying, the first problem EVERY TIME was that he just could NOT properly see the spray hitting the wood.It requires that you position lights or the work, or both JUST EXACTLY AT THE RIGHT ANGLE so that you can see the spray GOING DIRECTLY ON THE WOOD. Get your line of sight just a degree off line and you cannot see what you absolutely must see for the entire sweep of the spray gun along the piece being finished. Watch a pro spraying. It may not be immediately obvious, but what he's doing is constantly moving his head or shoulders so he keeps the light and the position of the spray just exactly right in his line of sight as he moves the gun along the work.This is the behavior that needs to become second nature for spraying to be successful. I think that most beginners become so nervous as they push that button on the spray can or pull the trigger on a gun, afraid that the spray is too close or too far, or that they need to keep the gun moving, that they completely look away from the point of spray contact.The second secret is to spray LIGHTLY. This is made possible by the first rule to keep the point of contact visually. Once you can actually see the spray going down, JUST WET THE SURFACE as you move along. Make sure it just wets, and no more. Don't leave any dry spots, but JUST BARELY WET THE SURFACE. Much more is going down than you may think. Don't try to build the film. It will level itself to a much flatter, complete covered appearance than it looks at first. Come back in 20-30 minutes for the next coat (up to a maximum of 3 before letting it harden for a day or so then sand/scuff).Again, watching a pro, it will seem like he is moving very quickly and putting down very little finish. That's exactly right. Beginners linger and worry the process much too much. He's covering the surface, just right, at just the right distance to just wet it. No powdery spray (spraying too far from the work), no visible puddles (spraying too close or too long), only a moving line of just-wet-looking wood.Rich

1. 
   vern | Jan 01, 2005 07:58am | #8

   Rich I hope Walt reads your thread I think you are doing about the same as I , but I use Deft semi-gloss- I actually fill grain with it because it is high in solids,, I cut it 1 to 1 with a cheapie laquer thinner 3 thin coats --knock off the birds and airplanes with 0000 , vacuum off and 3 more thin coats{somewheres between a dust coat and a wet coat) depending on what is being sprayed I mean moldings can be steeled wooled and flat surfaces of smooth wood I start my process of micro mesh ( slap a 360 disc on my randon-orbital for the start of filling open grain surfaces ) Go back to 0000 steel wool for a moment-- to avoid the white dust getting into pores cracks etc where you really don't want it -- I use Behelan's wool lub --in fact wool lub will leave a luxurious feeling to your finnish-- but don't dilute as it sugests-- if micro mesh has a strange ring in your ear it because you are missing out on one or I should say the finest tool in your finishing arsnel-- I can put a semi or a glass mirror finish using friendly Deft there are nine levels of micro mesh up to 12000--I live in Florida and I shoot with it raining out side I use a Greco gun and single stage turbine HVLP and as a bonus when I get through spraying I just hang up my gun till the next time I need it --when I add stain to Deft as a toner I have to clean it ==finishing is no longer a problemmaking sawdusthappy new year

   Edited 1/1/2005 12:00 am ET by vern

1. 
   Rich14 | Jan 01, 2005 07:43pm | #9

   Vern,Where do you get your micromesh?How is it that you don't need to clean your gun after spraying Deft?Rich

2. 
   vern | Jan 01, 2005 11:22pm | #12

   Rich I am not in the shop right now but when I get back from OUTBACK I will give you an number to call-- when true grit stopped handling it I gave them like 450 for all they had left and it will probable last me the rest of my life .. it may sound a little pricey to you but the darn stuff lasts forever it was developed to clean airplane windowa and found its way to us . remember I cut Deft one to one [equal parts] with lacquer thinner-- I just started leaving the gun to the next time and done it ever since,, probably ever 3to4 months I take it apart but only when it desn't work right. I might not use it for two weeks or even longer or I might use it ever other day --all depends gotta gomaking sawdust

3. 
   vern | Jan 03, 2005 11:39pm | #13

   Rich-- the number for micro=surface 1-800 225 3006 ext244 Frank Poma he is the man I talked to at the IWF show in Atlanta - his e-mail is [email protected] their address Micro-Surface Finishing Products 1217 West third Street. PO Box 70 Wilton. IA 52778 If you get some ,get their sample kit because you need all the levels to see how it works and I can give you some suggestions from my experience . I do have another number 1563 732 3240 or fax1563 732 3390 or mobile 1 563 299 1646 one of these should get them !making sawdust

2. 
   Jellyrug | Dec 31, 2004 08:58pm | #5

   Rich,

   Lacquer is my favorite finish.

   The positive attributes is the ease of repairing a damaged finish, or going back and fixing mistakes. As it dries so quick, you can finish a job in little time, starting from sanding sealer, to four coats of lacquer.

   I use a De Vilbiss Finishline III HVLP gun, with a 60gal 12 CFM compressor and use different nozzle sizes depending on the nature or area I have to spray. I spray in a normal three car garage, leaving a big door open, with a fan positioned in a side door, giving good cross ventilation (California). I use a good NIOSH approved mask for organic vapors.

   I must say though, using lacquer, in my view if you only do this ONCE IN A WHILE, a standard $40 spray gun does the job fine and a lot easier than HVLP. HVLP has it's advantages, but it is not easy and takes a lot of practise. It's about pressure settings, nozzle sizes, material viscosity, outside temperature affecting how quick your finish dries, humidity, with side effects etc.

1. 
   Rich14 | Jan 01, 2005 08:23pm | #10

   Jellyrug,"I must say though, using lacquer, in my view if you only do this ONCE IN A WHILE, a standard $40 spray gun does the job fine and a lot easier than HVLP."Yup. I do my work (for the time being) in our 2 car garage. I have an old, tiny Devilbiss conventional gun and a cheapo Home Depot pancake compressor. The only work I do now is for my family - maybe a piece every 2-3 months. This equipment far exceeds my needs. Although I can't wait until I have a "dedicated" shop again, just for the space - maybe another year or so.I have seen guys use a spray can in a pinch, off the shelf from Ace, and put down as fine a finish as it gets.Don't know about spraying with the garage door open and fan blowing, though. As it is, it's difficult enough to keep the larger bugs and low-flying birds out of the finish. I would have a ton of grit if I kept the door open. I close the door and wait about an hour for the air to really settle out, then spray a few minutes at a time. I figure I've lost about 50 IQ points over the years by killing off brain cells with solvent fumes. And since I only started at 90 to begin with, I have to ration the rest!Rich

1. 
   WillGeorge | Jan 01, 2005 09:16pm | #11

   I'm not sure how to respond to all of you for your comments..  Gee, I brush because I never got the hang of spraying on wood..  I have painted a few cars with lacquer but long ago..  Turned out pretty good if I don't say so myself  but WOOD..  Geeeee  I guess I need to practice with your suggestions..

   Thanks for all the Info..

   HAPPY NEW YEAR ALL!

2. 
   notDusty | Dec 31, 2004 11:27am | #2

               Hi J ,

       There are 3 basic choices of spray equipment , conventional , hvlp and airless. I have about 30 years experience with lacquers and spraying. The previous post was chalk full of information . There are different ways to accomplish a great finish . I personally put a very light mist coat of sanding sealer on then within minutes come back over it with more of a wet coat. When dry I then sand with worn out used 220 paper until smooth. Depending on the nature of the job you can repeat this process or go directly to your finish lacquer. The room temp will determine the time when the sealer can be sanded. The reason I suggest sanding between coats is it gives you a chance to knock down the boogers and imperfections that rise up through the sealer.I would caution you about using alcohol as a rub down as this may raise the grain and make for a rough surface. I too use water white or non yellowing sealers and top coats. However there is little we can do to prevent the wood from yellowing.This occurs mostly from uv rays I suppose. Usually the inside of a cabinet door will not be yellowed like the outside of the door. I started with a conventional cup gun and now use an airless.When applied properly no rubout is needed on this type of finish . Remember it is not so much the room temp as the moisture that can cause blushing and other related problems. Lastly some lacquers are what is called self sealing , meaning you only use one product all the way through, but the lacquer is a harder material to sand than sealer is .

                   good  luck and happy finishing              dusty

3. 
   Paul_Snyder | Dec 31, 2004 09:08pm | #6

   Just to add a little to the great info you've already received;

   • Lacquer dries much faster than polyurethane but isn't nearly as durable. There's a comparison of the properties of various finishes at this link - Comparing Finishes.
   • You do need a supply of fresh air, an exhaust fan (spray booth), and a respirator when using lacquer. Here's an article on respirators - Choosing a respirator. In Jeff Jewitt's book, Great Wood Finishes, he has plans for a portable spray booth you can build.
   • Sanding sealer is not a requirement for lacquer, it's self sealing. For kitchen and bath cabinetry where mositure can be a problem, vinyl sealer is recommended. Here's an article on sealers - Sealers.
   • You should have a supply of lacquer thinner and lacquer retarder to work with lacquer. Lacquer retarder is a slower evaporating lacquer thinner that helps to eliminate blush when the humidity is high. It only takes a very small amount of retarder.
   • Use a quality brand of lacquer and stick with the same brand for your thinners to ensure compatibility. Lacquers are not all formulated the same way and the manufacturer provides thinners that work with their product. There are lots of exceptions to this rule, but you can get into that later.
   • Lacquer is not only beautiful, it's very versatile. It forms a film even when highly thinned, can be tinted with dyes and/or pigments for toning and shading, and works well with glazes.
   • Sanding between coats is not required unless you need to remove nibs or level the surface of the finish.
   • Lacquer rubs out very well.

   Paul S
   Website

1. 
   JMartinsky | Jan 04, 2005 04:45pm | #14

   WOW! I want to thank all who offerred thier input. I had NO idea what I was starting!I've been doing this proffessionally for a while now and it looks like I still have a ton to learn.Thanks Again!John

2. 
   user-5880422 | Jan 04, 2005 06:20pm | #15

   I've fully switched to water-based laquer (primarily Fuhr products), not only is it safer on me, the environment, and my shop (no fire hazard), it does away with having to have solvents around. The results are just as good as any solvent based lacquer I've used.

    

1. 
   Paul_Snyder | Jan 04, 2005 07:45pm | #16

   I didn't know Fuhr had a water-base lacquer Jeff. Going back a few years, I used their finishes for over a year (around 350 gallons of the water-base varnish) but had some problems I couldn't resolve so I switched to Target Coatings (http://www.targetcoatings.com). Target has a water-base that has 100% burn-in between coats just like lacquer (or shellac).

   At the shop, I'm set up with a spray booth and everything I need to spray any type of finish so the safety issue is covered. Some of the finishes I do need to be very durable and some don't so I need to be able to use whatever the job requires. Here's a chart that shows how different finishes compare to one another - Finish Comparison Chart. Water-base falls under the TR3 heading and as long as you don't need more durability, it's a great option.Paul S
   Website

1. 
   user-5880422 | Jan 04, 2005 08:30pm | #17

   Paul,

   I still have some Target PSL (which I guess is now called Oxford), but have been getting great results from Fuhr's #555 waterclear lacquer. Because I like the Fuhr varnishes a lot (#355, #380), I've pretty much gone single source. I agree with you that solvent lacquers varnishes are superior to waterborne finishes, but incrementally and typically not appreciated by the end user. Maybe it's just that the work I do doesn't bring out the extra points on a solvent lacquer, your work may be more sensitive to it.

   Over the last year I have made a strong effort to consume fewer solvents in my shop so I've been using waterborne whenever possible and learning how to maximize the results (I even used a Bona waterborne urethane when I refinished the floors in my own house, after 14 months of wear and tear I can say that I'll never go back to a solvent-based urethane!)