Replies

1. 
   SgianDubh | Feb 01, 2003 09:03pm | #1

   What kind of lacquer?

   Sprayed acid catalysed lacquer such as pre-cat or a catalysed varnish can sometimes present difficulties because the manufacturer’s recommend the final combined coat thickness of these finishing products should not exceed 5 mils (equal to one thousandth of an inch or 0.0254 mm) Five coats of these types of lacquers might exceed this recommendation, and excessive coating thickness usually results in cracking, which shows up months after the job is complete. Generally, you should apply no more than three coats, and two is probably better.

   Nitrocellulose lacquer is the exception in this family of finishes and can be applied layer upon layer and later rubbed down.

   You may not be using any of these types of lacquer, and if that's the case this contribution is superfluous. Slainte.

   Website                                          The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh

1. 
   2002sheds | Feb 01, 2003 10:35pm | #3

   Hi RichardJ,

   Thanks for your message. The brand is Deft, but it does not specifically say that it is nitrocellulose. The ingredients listed (xylene, alphatic hydrocarbons, ketones and glycol ethers) are all solvents and drying agents, or at least I think they are.

   The reason I am wondering about the rubbing out aspect at all is the quality of the spraying equipment that I have available, which is the entry-level Campbell Hausfield HVLP system. I'm concerned that the overall quality of the finish may need attention after I'm done spraying.

   Thanks in advance for any response that you may give.

   Two Sheds

1. 
   SgianDubh | Feb 02, 2003 11:24am | #11

   Sheds, I'm not familiar with the Deft brand, so I don't believe I can give you good advice. Slainte.Website                                          The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh

2. 
   Drewpeacock | Feb 02, 2003 05:11pm | #12

   Just out of interest, what do the autobody shops use?

   I know "months" is completely out of the question for them and the finishes are really quite acceptable.

   Bob

1. 
   LarryPile | Feb 02, 2003 06:02pm | #13

   As an ex-auto painter (Circa 1980) we used acrylic lacquer..not nitro..I'll bet Deft is an acrylic....

   We'd paint a coat or two about every 30-45 minutes..but remember that a car is BIG..it takes 15 minutes to get around the whole car..so add that time for a small project.

   We'd then allow to dry for a minimum of 48 hours for a full redo..and 8-24 hours for a small spot repair.

   Then we'd use 400 and then 600 and buff out to "read your name in the paint" gloss.

   With cars, the thinner the finish, the better..the car vibrates, the sun bakes, the paint cracks.....

   Nowadays, they're using two-part low VOC epoxy paints that you don't want to use at home....at least not without a booth, force-air respirator, etc..

   As I refinish furniture, I hold true to thin coats of lacquer, let each dry 30 minutes and then let the whole thing dry for a few days.  Usually folks who have a piece of furniture built or refinished recognize that quality takes time..take that time.

   For a wonderful semi-gloss finish, I wet-sand the dry lacquer thoroughly with 400, then 600, then rub with #0000 steel wool...with the grain and then use that same steel wool to rub wax into the finish..and try to polish the excess wax off before it dries.  This leaves a semi-gloss finish that people want to run their hands over.

   Good luck

   lp

1. 
   Drewpeacock | Feb 02, 2003 07:04pm | #14

   I have been doing very similar to what you suggest albeit empirically.

   It's good to get some reassurance froma pro.

   I have been using a 5" car buffing tool with rubbing compound to get the final patina. You have to go lightly and keep the surface slightly moist but it's sure quick.

   bob

1. 
   mwestenberg | Feb 03, 2003 05:43am | #15

   The Deft finish is nitro-based unless you're using one of their polyurethane finishes.  I would also advise waiting at least 2 days if you want to rub-out.  Longer is better but I don't have any experience beyound the above.  This finish does release odor for several weeks, so maybe Steinway has something there!

2. 
   2002sheds | Feb 03, 2003 07:08pm | #16

   Thanks, Larry,

   The lacquer I'm spraying is Deft nitrocellulose. I've now sprayed the first coat of lacquer on the table, and it has dried for 12 hours at this point. There are tiny flecks that are higher gloss than the layer "beneath" it. Was this caused by the gun Campbell Hausfield gun that came with the kit)? Spraying technique? Or is it normal?

   Do I need to rub out each layer, and if so, how quickly? (The consensus seems to be a few days...) I'm asking this because of the comments in this thread about each layer "melting" the one before it. In that logic, I'd only rub out the last layer. Thoughts? Thanks in advance for any reply.

   Two Sheds

1. 
   jackplane | Feb 03, 2003 11:44pm | #17

   I've got the same(probably) or similar Campbell Hausfield HVLP.I've shot more than 5,sometimes around 6 or 7 coats of nitro lacquer in one day, no problems.

   With low enough humidity <60%,warm enough air temp.,you can finsh a piece in one day,but I like to let it dry overnight,then sand/smooth and shoot a topcoat the next morning.

2. 
   Elcoholic | Feb 03, 2003 11:58pm | #18

   If there's dust, bugs or hair sand them out as you go.  If it's mild orange peel just rub at the end when everthing's cured out.  Deft is a brushing lacquer, it's rearded so brush marks have longer to flowout.  It's also spendy.  Try to find Lilly at a paint store, they have a wide variety of nitro and CAB type lacquers.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking

   Life is tough.  It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne

3. 
   LarryPile | Feb 04, 2003 05:09am | #19

   In a perfect world, I'd shoot 2-3 coats of nitro lacquer, let dry overnight and scuff with 400 grit, scotchbrite or even #0000 steel wool (DON'T use steel wool w/water based finishes... = rust city).  All you're doing is removing some of the inevitable dust nibs and "crap" that gets between coats. 

   Whoever told you that the "new" coats melt into the "old" coats is correct.  This is the case with Nitro & Acrylic lacquers and shellac.  NOT the case with Poly and other Varnishes...can't say about Catalyzed lacquer, etc.  You're not sanding for adhesion, you're getting rid of bumps, etc.

   Repeat this 2-3 times..you want a thick enough film so that you can sand down and polish without going through to the stain/color coats.

   When I use shellac or lacquer I also do something that works well (I can't believe I'm telling ALL of my secrets...grin):  I'll do the coats, sand, wait, do some more coats, sand, wait and then do my final coats, allow to dry for as long as I can stand it....a week is ideal...at least a couple of days and then WET sand with 600 grit..ultra fine wet-or-dry paper and finally spray either lacquer thinner or alcohol...for lacquer or shellac.  This latter step "melts" the final, very fine sanding scratches and makes your rubbing out a bit easier and cleaner.  I then use #0000 steel wool and BriWax for a semi-gloss finish or buff with auto rubbing compound (but be careful...it's really sandpaper in liquid form) and then wax.....

   I've also had excellent luck brushing on shellac and doing the above.  Take a look at the Knots Gallery...some Arts & Crafts picture frames I just finished.  The finish is very nice.

   Good luck.  E-mail me at [email protected] if you'd like to discuss or ask more questions.

   lp

4. 
   PlaneWood | Feb 04, 2003 08:59am | #20

   I like Deft Clear Wood Finish (i.e. - lacquer) cause of the 'warm' touch it has.  A Deft rep told me that was because they add mineral soaps to it.

   Also, being a so-called brushing lacquer, it is a little slower and is less prone to blushing in high humidity climites.  Something that is critital in these tropical conditions around here.  I don't think I have ever brushed any of it on.  Never thin it.  May add retarder occasionally as need dictates.

   I have found that thicker coats wind up looking better.  I have a motorized 'turner' that turns my handles and knobs at 30 rpm to prevents the runs.

   It is also readily available around here at Walmart, HD, Lowe's, Ace hardware, and similar stores. 

   When doing furniture pieces I will generally put on 5 heavy coats (heaviest on top, of course); doing one coat each day and buffing with a clean cotton cloth before applying the next coat.  Light sanding is required to get rid of debris marks that might happen.   Final buffing generally a couple of weeks after last coat with an electric buffer.

   I do the spraying with an el-cheapo Campbell Hausfeld quart spray gun and always do the spraying in a breeze or with a low fan blowing over the piece (to help prevent blushing).   That last tid bit was passed to me by an elderly furniture refinisher with 40 years of experience in the Houston area   (he retired from Ethan Allen)

   And thats my 2 cents worth!

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_KatyPlaneWood

5. 
   2002sheds | Feb 05, 2003 08:51pm | #23

   Larry, All,

   Thanks for more great information! I ended up spraying, buffing with cotton when dry, spraying again, etc. I'm up to three coats at this point, and the warmth of the lacquer is really adding a nice color to the table.

   Thanks also for the vote of confidence in the entry-level Campbell Hausfield system. It helped tremendously to have a "picture" of how it might turn out.

   Most importantly, I want to thank everyone who took time to write in and give their advice. It allowed me avoid some of the boneheaded things I've done in the past, and your tips are helping me enjoy the most difficult aspect of furniture making for me- the finishing process. Thank you so much!

   Two Sheds

6. 
   LarryPile | Feb 06, 2003 05:30am | #24

   Be sure to post some pictures in the Gallery.  We all can learn from each others' successes and failures!

   lp

2. 
   HowardAcheson | Feb 01, 2003 09:46pm | #2

   The longer the better. Steinway piano waits 5-6 months before they finish the finish. From a practical point of view, for nitro lacquer we used to wait about 48 hours if the project was kept in a temperature of 70 degrees or higher.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 2/1/2003 2:26:42 PM ET by Howie

1. 
   2002sheds | Feb 01, 2003 10:38pm | #4

   Thanks, Howie,

   If the family I built this for (friends) are eager to have this table in their dining room, is it okay to transport once the finish is dry, and later go over to their house to rub it out?

   Thanks,

   Two Sheds

1. 
   RW | Feb 01, 2003 11:19pm | #5

   If it doesn't say pre cat, its nitro. You'll get 20 opinions from 10 people, I wait 30 days before rubbing out. Having done so, I'd consider waiting 4 months a realistic time period for what one would try to achieve with a grand piano.

   You can transport, but dont let it hit anything, and I'd keep even packing blankets off it for a week. I've seen blankets come off of a table that was dry for over a week before it shipped and you could see every little thread in that cloth, finely imprinted onto the surface. Course, they laid the table on its top and shipped it a thousand miles, which might have added . . .

   You can rub it out in their house, but why in the world would you want to? I wouldn't give it out until it's done. Like buying a car and the dealer says "yeah, it's almost there. You can use it for awhile and we'll just swing by and paint it in your garage next month". From the professionalism aspect, that rubs me wrong, pun intended." Clothes make the man. Naked people have litte or no influence in society" - Mark Twain

1. 
   2002sheds | Feb 01, 2003 11:52pm | #6

   Hi RW,

   Thanks for your response- good points all around. It's great to have resources out there like yourself, and it's much appreciated.

   Thanks,

   Two Sheds

2. 
   HowardAcheson | Feb 02, 2003 02:18am | #10

   Lots of good info from others. Before the finishing question can be answered we need to know the gloss of the finish you plan to attain and what type of finishing process you plan to follow.

   I won't resist moving the items before final rubbing out. As has been mentioned, the slightest thing can leave its impression on the surface. I too have seen items ruined by just a blanket.

3. 
   StanleyNiemiec | Feb 02, 2003 01:19am | #7

   The answer that was given  --  the longer the better is absolutely correct if you are going for a high gloss effect.  If you are going for a softer looking finish sheen, you don't have to wait as long.

   Lacquer (nitrocellulose) finishes "set" wholly by solvent evaporation so you have to make a judgement based on how much laccquer you apply, how much time you leave between coats, and how much solvent you add. 

   I try to add the least amount of solvent thinner as absolutely possible and I like to spray heavy.  The master finisher I worked with when I started in the trade, continually used to say that if you are not getting runs, you are not putting enough on.

   I use no sanding sealer but I sand between coats of lacquer.  The first coat I will sand with 180 grit paper (depending of the wood).  Mostly I am dealing with fiber pop and imperfections I have not seem on the raw wood.  Second and third coat, I go to 220 paper and I use a nylon pad (green) after sanding.  Fourth coat should require only a minimal sand with 320 paper and a quick going over with a white nylon pad.  And for the last coat, I spray to uniformly wet the surface, wait about 5+ minutes so that most of the solvent has flashed off (but the finish is still very soft) and then I spray a heavy final coat.  By wetting the surface, I am actually resoluablizing all the previous coats so that when I spray my last coat the entire finish is softened (plastic), mixes and has good viscosity so that I have very few drips, runs or sags. 

   What you have to remember is that lacquer flows and it still flows when it seems dry to the touch.  You want to insure that before you rub out your finish, the flow/plasticity of the finish has ceased.  As far as I am concerned this is entire dependent on ambient temperature.  I depend on finish flow/plasticity to give me a smooth final coat.  If you don't let the finish fully dry before you do your rub out, then with futher finish flow/shrinkage, pores will show  --  you will level the finish when you rub it out but with the shrinkage/flow, if done too early, finish will continue to move into the pores.

   How you rub out also makes a difference.  If you use power equipment, considerable heat will be generated.  If the finish is still soft, the heat will further soften it and if too soft, too hot, you can make a real mess.  I'm certain that Steinway waits as long as it does because they are using power equipment and want a surface that is as hard as possible.

   This is really a silly question but before you get too much advise, you ought to mention how you plan to rub out  --  the steps and the method.  For example, are you going to wet sand?  Pumice, rottenstone, or commercial rubbing compounds?  What is the final sheen you are attempting to obtain.?  This latter determination is critical because if you are going for a rubbed high gloss effect (god knows why), the practice is entirely different that if you are seeking a rubbed satin sheen.

1. 
   BKCBUILDER | Feb 02, 2003 01:33am | #8

    We call gloss finish..."The Value City look" cause value city is the cheap furniture place in town. If you can't make it good, at least make it shine.

    I'd ditch the Deft, and get a pre-cat laquer. I shoot 3 coats of sealer, sand after first and third, then 2 coats of finish laquer. I spread them over 2 days, because as mentioned, it "sucks back" after a few days, so the finish you initially see for a few days is not the finish that is there 2 weeks down the road. On most trim, doors etc.  we never "rub out" they are left alone (but then again we are using "rubbed effect , satin sheen laq"). Furniture, we usually wait a few weeks, and rub them out with a piece of brown grocery bag. It will cut and smooth any fine dust, without leaving any sand scratches or need to further polish. It will also kill any gloss places, and leave a uniform satin sheen. Want shine, rub harder.

     I think the cheap cambell hausfield unit will surprise you, but if ou try to rush 5 coats in one day, you may be disappointed.

2. 
   2002sheds | Feb 02, 2003 01:36am | #9

   NIEMIC1,

   Thank you for your message- it was very helpful. To answer your question, I was planning on rubbing out the finish by hand, using 220 or above wet sandpaper, to get a semi-gloss or satin finish. I was planning on waiting only 45 minutes between coats, but will take your advice on the sanding bewteen coats.

   I'm hoping to spray this tomorrow, in my garage with the doors open, and fans pushing the air out. I live in Northern California, and we are expecting 63 degree temps with no rain.

   Is the time in between coats too short? Or is it a matter of interpretation, as you seem to indicate.

   Thanks in advance for your reply.

   Two Sheds

4. 
   Splintie | Feb 04, 2003 10:03pm | #21

   Well, after all this, i would advise not to use Deft lacquer as a dining (?) table top finish, but it looks like i'm too late. Deft is just too soft for this kind of use.

   As to Stanley's comment about spraying it heavy enough to get runs, i'm baffled, unless it was a joke. I spray a light "set" coat first, both to make the wood fibers stand up so they can be sanded back, and to avoid bleeding out any of the color of the natural wood or the applied stain. Some woods, like padauk, bleed badly into the lacquer if coated heavily which means a muddier finish to look through.

1. 
   jackplane | Feb 05, 2003 05:40pm | #22

   Splintie, I agree.If you see runs you've got a problem.Big one.IMO, best to apply light coats, unless one enjoys sanding and refinishing.