Replies

1. 
   MarkRoderick | May 25, 2004 03:16pm | #1

   This might be entirely unfair, but I figure that all Laguna tools must be overpriced by about 25% relative to the competition because they have to pay for all that glitzy advertising. I mean, if you looked at their financial statements you'd see a huge number for advertising costs, and that number has to be offset by some increase in price. I'm just guessing that 25% is about right. So that rules out Laguna for me.

1. 
   jazzdogg | May 26, 2004 07:57pm | #5

   "This might be entirely unfair, but I figure that all Laguna tools must be overpriced by about 25% relative to the competition because they have to pay for all that glitzy advertising. I mean, if you looked at their financial statements you'd see a huge number for advertising costs, and that number has to be offset by some increase in price. I'm just guessing that 25% is about right. So that rules out Laguna for me."

   Mark,

   The words unfair and illogical both spring to mind.

   All businesses make decisions re: the mix of expenses that suit their business model, and I find it illogical to examine common-size expense distribution as a way to decide whether prices are reasonable.  For example, Grizzly's advertising expenses are probably among the highest in the industry, but they offset this cost by, among other things, choosing to limit distribution cost, not attending WW trade shows, etc.

   Fast food joints and fine dining restaurants will both feed you, but their income statements and balance sheets are markedly different. The same is true for Ritz-Carlton hotels versus Motel 6, and for businesses that sell tools.

   In the end, it's the marketplace that determines prices: supply & demand, not expenses.

   -Jazzdogg-

   Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.

1. 
   MarkRoderick | May 26, 2004 08:36pm | #6

   The thing is, we're not comparing apples and oranges as between a fine restaurant and a fast food place. There, I would agree the comparison of expense line items is meaningless.

   Here's we're comparing apples to apples - two manufacturers/distributors of middle-market woodworking tools.

   In that situation, I don't think it's completely illogical to look at expense items. For example, if Grizzly maintained its corporate headquarters at Two Maiden Lane in Manhattan, I'd think that maybe their rent was something I didn't want to subsidize too heavily.

   I agree that Grizzly advertises, but you're right about their also cutting other costs such as distribution costs. The fact that they are almost always the low-cost producer suggests that they are managing their income statement effectively.

   Laguna, on the other hand, is always the high-cost producer, whether in bandsaws or tablesaws or anything else, and I have to believe a significant chunk of the differential is due to their abnormally glitzy and intense marketing campaigns, which are really out of the ordinary in the industry. Laguna really seems to be a marketing-driven company. It's not apparent to me that they offset this with savings in any other aspect of their business, so I'm figuring that it must be dropping to the bottom line.

   Anyway, that's my impression. Could be totally wrong.

2. 
   Walnutburl | May 25, 2004 04:58pm | #2

   I was just at the Laguna web site yesterday and was looking at their message boards. Seems their support is lacking to me... might be worth a look. Several disaster stories and the only way they are getting any support is to post on the message board.

1. 
   mcfdesign | May 26, 2004 04:37am | #3

   There's a good idea—I didn't even think about their forum.

   It sounds like they have some problems with the cross cutting sled, easy switching between ripping and cutting and so forth. In reading that forum I realized that combining the two functions on the table saw would have to be done somehow as to make switching between the two either instantaneous or nearly so, at least for me given how I work.

   Thanks for the input. I'd still like to hear from anyone who owns one, though.

   Matt

1. 
   pem | May 26, 2004 04:44pm | #4

   I purchased the laguna table saw some time ago but due to wiring problems in an old building and getting our permits done for some remodeling work being done we have not used it yet.  I should have it up and running in 1 to 2 weeks and can follow up then.  Everyone in the shop are looking forward to using it.  They all watched the vidio and inspected the machine and are looking forward to seeing if it is as good as it looks.  I had Laguna give me the names of a few people that owned one before I purschased it since it was a new product.  They were all happy with the machine.  One person had a problem with the fit of one part but said he received good service getting it taken care of.  I have the unit with the sliding table.  In a  related manner, I was wondering if anyone has used the new Dado blade from Freud that you dial up the size instead of shims?  This saw has a built in dado and was interested in fitting it with this blade.   Thank You   

3. 
   Michmesquite | May 27, 2004 12:23am | #7

   Matt

   I am somewhat biased here inasmuch as I am a MiniMax owner.

   I think you should look at the MiniMax SC3U @ $4,800 and the Felder K700 ECO (guess is about $5,500 - 6,000). (I have the MM CU300 Smart combo and very pleased with the fit-n-finish and operation.)

   I looked at the Laguna stuff side by side with the MiniMax and Felder stuff and found the quality of the MiniMax to be better and the quality of the Felder to be much better when compared to the Laguna saws. I went with MiniMax for price reasons.

   MiniMax has a reputation for superb customer service. Both Felder and Laguna tend to be off in that regard (tour their SIG's).

   In any case, whichever way you go, go now, because the Euro is getting very strong and prices are rising across the board on the European stuff. I bought my CU300S 18 months ago for less than $8,000. It is now $10,995.

   _________________________________

   Michael in San Jose

   "In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted." Bertrand Russell 

1. 
   mcfdesign | May 27, 2004 04:42am | #8

   Good advice about the Euro, and I thank you. The prices of the machines you talked about are probably out of my range though, and are quite a bit higher than the Laguna (or the Powermatic, for that matter.) I agree with you that Laguna's customer service is lacking lately, although it used to be pretty good. I don't know if they are currently understaffed or what, but getting through on the phone to them lately has been difficult.

   Thanks again for your post.

   Matt

1. 
   bakesale1 | May 27, 2004 09:22pm | #13

   If you like Euro style saws, you might look for a used Inca.  There's a great store in So Cal, Eagle Tools, that often has used machines.  The Inca is a Swiss Machine, 12" inches with a 1"arbor and a very precise fence.  On some older models you can get a mortising attachment.  They don't have the sliding table though.

4. 
   ktmguy | May 27, 2004 06:42am | #9

   Dear Matt I bought a LT16HD as well and I was so happy with it I wanted to tour the show room. I happened to be in LA and I stopped in (BIG MISTAKE). First off you have to have an appiontment and second I don't think I have ever met anyone so stuck on themself. After talking for a while with them I decided not to buy anything from them again. I just bought a Rojec from http://www.techmark.com for less than half the price of a Laguna TS. Also the service was great. I had a minor issue with a hold down clamp and instead of shipping it back they paid me to take it to a local machinest. 

1. 
   mcfdesign | May 27, 2004 06:57am | #10

   Thanks for the input; just how much was it? How easily do you switch from cross-cutting to ripping?

   Also, the correct site address is http://www.tech-mark.com, although you are better off going straight to http://www.rojekusa.com/PHP/index.php

   By the way, if you have any troubles with the guides on your 16HD, as I have for years, you might consider spending the $225 and upgrading to their new ceramic guides. I find them to be much better, and much more easily set.

   Matt

1. 
   Michmesquite | May 27, 2004 07:39am | #11

   The Euro-style guides are the only complaint I have on my MM16. Talk is Laguna will be marketing the new ceramic guides for the MM BS series._________________________________

   Michael in San Jose

   "In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted." Bertrand Russell 

2. 
   ktmguy | May 27, 2004 07:42am | #12

   Mine came with the ceramic guides, and yes they work great.As for the Rojek, I paid 1500.00 for a 1998 brand new one that had a flaw in it, but was recently fixed by Tech Mark. They have another one available. It's a PK300V I believe, it comes with scoring attachment, sliding table. All you have to do to switch from ripping to cross cutting is unscrew a knob and remove the cross cut fence.  If you would like to contact them, let me know and I will give you their number. You should talk to Todd. Very nice people.

5. 
   RodWolfy | Jun 01, 2004 08:21am | #14

   Hey Matt, I had a Jet Cabinet Saw (50" table), 6" jointer, and a portable planer. I wanted a sliding table saw and so I was looking at adding an Excaliber for $700. However, I found that I would have to have the saw fixed in place as the sliding table needed to be supported full time. I also wanted to get an 8" jointer and a stationary planer.

   I looked around and found a used Felder. It had an awesome sliding table, 12" jointer/planer (4 knife cutterhead) and a 3 hp shaper with a tilting arbor. As a benefit, the sliding table can be used with the shaper too. Changeover is 1 to 3 minutes depending on the tool. The whole thing takes up about the same space as the cabinet saw and the 6" jointer if they were placed side by side. As an added benefit, I got about $2000 in tooling and accessories (shaper heads, 3 extra outfeed tables, jointer blades, etc).

   What I reasoned was that a table saw like the Laguna or a PM66 w/ Excaliber was around $3000. A 12" jointer was around $2500. A 3hp shaper w/ tilting arbor and sliding table was around $2500+. I got all of them on one machine that is easier to roll around than the Jet Cabinet Saw was with HTC moble base. I can just roll it over to the wall and my wife can park the van when needed.

   You might want to save your money and look at the used classifieds. Also, check with the Felder Owners Group on Yahoo. There are several owners in NY that would be happy to have you stop in and play with one of their machines. I tried one locally before I bought and was amazed!

   The best part was that I got the whole thing for $5000. I had enough left over to purchase an Agazzani 20".

6. 
   ssittler | Jun 01, 2004 11:57pm | #15

   Matt,

   I've owned the Laguna 16HD bandsaw and the Robland combination saw/shaper/planer-jointer for six years.  The bandsaw is fine, and so is the jointer-planer.  You can make setting the knives easier by using a pin-indexing jig and 2-edged blades to fit it.  It was not difficult to drill and tap the head to fit in 8-32 setscrews and they can very easily be brought to close tolerances, and stay there with locktite.

   There are 3 problems with the table saw:

   1.  Adjusting the blade parallel to the milled dovetail-shaped miter guide slot on the table is nearly impossible even with the little fitting they sent when I complained.  The mitre guage is contemptible, but un-necessary with a sliding so that's not too bad; but you won't like trying to get anything to slide parallel to the blade using that slot!

   2.  The fences are a bit lightweight, but easy to adjust and seem not to stray once tightened.

   3. Setting the sliding table level with the table and the slide parallel to the blade is involved, but it too is stable once tightened down.  That said the machine is stable, solid, powerful.  I'd get a Felder, and do without the shaper, were I to start afresh.