Replies

1. 
   sbonder | Dec 14, 2002 12:05am | #1

   Stories like this kept me from buying from Laguna.  The one constant is always the horrible attitude of the Laguna folks.  Even when people are slamming Delta for some problem, they generally admit the folks tried to help, even if they could not.  Thanks for your posting.  You were clearly trying to hold back and give just the facts as you saw them.  I have no doubt that Laguna has its side of the story, but too many of these stories for me to buy from them.

2. 
   robert1 | Dec 14, 2002 02:31am | #2

   I woodwork for fun. I have had my share of equipment difficulties as well but I would not expect to have to put up with this type of belligerent behavior. Such an experience can easily take all of the fun out of woodworking. I think a company that acts this way, should join the ranks of Montgomery Ward and Kmart.

3. 
   Vibart2 | Dec 14, 2002 03:23am | #3

   It sounds like they have their cranial cavity up their anal orifice . If their not careful their cranial cavity  will rise up to the top of that stinking mess & end up looking like it's back where it belongs but still just as empty as their bank account.

1. 
   JohnCabot | Dec 14, 2002 03:40am | #4

   Mike: I want to commend you for sharing with us your experience with the Laguna people. Few days ago I asked, in thi Forum, for help in selecting the next Bandsaw, since th Makita I have is giving me fits.  I was tempted to buy a Laguna, thanks to your letter I am now steering clear of that brand.

   You do a service to your fellow co-workers in demanding quality, if we do not make a fuss when we get inferior tools you can be sure that the quality will go, down the tubes, rapidly

   Have a nice Holyday.

   John Cabot

1. 
   nicobie | Dec 14, 2002 03:46am | #5

   The same happened with me.

   I ended up with a Minimax, and would do it over again.

   The proof is in the puddin'

1. 
   b1gcountry | Dec 16, 2002 07:34pm | #14

   Hi, I just read your post on knots about the Minimax...I'm considering the Minimax 16, and I was curious if this was the machine you have? They have a special this month for the MM16, mobility kit and other stuff for $1595. I don't want to buy this saw now, but also don't want to miss the deal. Do you know if they offer this deal often, or if this is more of a now or never type thing?

   THanks

   Tom

1. 
   nicobie | Dec 16, 2002 08:27pm | #15

   Yes I bought a Minimax 16 in sept. and have been very happy with it. I had to pay $1695 for mine. It too came with a mobility kit and a mitre guage (POS). The special you are talking about is the first special I've ever heard of. However I've read on the forums of folks at shows paying $1540.

   I don't think you can go wrong buying this saw. The proof is in the puddin'

2. 
   MSDMSD | Dec 17, 2002 12:18am | #16

   Are you saying you would not purchase the Minimax again?  The only reason I ask is because I have been looking around for a new band saw(BS).  My first choice was a Laguna BS but then after asking around I changed my mind.  I am now considering the Minimax.  I saw the Minimax at a Woodworking Show in Las Vegas and was impressed on how it was built.  I would appreciate your input since you own one.  Thank you - MSD

1. 
   bakesale1 | Dec 17, 2002 01:57am | #17

   I've heard horror stories from several very experienced woodworkers both about the treatment they received from Laguna and the quality of their products.  I saw the Laguna 16" BS standing side-by-side with the Agazzani Band Saw.  There was no comparison between the two.  The Laguna couldn't stand half the tension on the blade that the Agazzani.

   I have no financial affiliation with this shop but have found that Jesse Baragan at Eagle tools in Altadena to be very helpful and to see top quality equipment.  If you're considering the Laguna BS, contact Eagle tools and check out the Agazzani.

   Eric from Oakland.

2. 
   musick | Dec 17, 2002 07:25pm | #18

   Don't overlook Agazzani. I called Mini Max, Laguna, and Eagle Tools (Agazzani). Found Jesse at Eagle Tools to be the straightest dealer in the bunch, told me what he could do right up front without a lot of haggling. Unfortunately couldn't view all three saws before purchasing, but after reading all reviews I could find feel very comfortable selecting Agazzani. Have the delivery company scheduled to drop off a 24" Agazzani this friday so can give you my first impressions next week.

3. 
   nicobie | Dec 17, 2002 09:20pm | #19

   NO... just the opposite.

   I would buy a Minimax 16 again. I really like the tool. The Mitre guage is a POS so don't pay extra for it. Everything else is great!The proof is in the puddin'

4. 
   twotowers | Jan 05, 2003 11:06pm | #31

   Mike, Wow what a story. If you paid by credit card, and you had documented this I bet you could get your money back. Laguna would have been stuck on the pick up costs as well.

   Jim

4. 
   Ricky_Yu | Dec 14, 2002 11:24am | #6

   Recently at the woodworking show, I was checking out some of the Laguna tools and I put my name on their mailing list. I'm not really in the market for any big purchases, but I am trying to familiarize myself with some of the European brands. A few days later, one of their representatives called me, and I requested one of their catalogs. The catalog arrived promptly, and a short time thereafter, another rep called me with a quality control survey inquiring about the level of attention I received from the first guy. Then she thanked me for participating by sending out a t-shirt (still haven't arrived yet). It seems like they are doing a good job of service when it comes to attracting customers. Once they have you as a customer, however, I can't say firsthand, though Mike's story is certainly shocking and troubling.

1. 
   emerckx | Dec 15, 2002 04:36am | #7

   Ricky,

   I have the Laguna 16 SEC.  I had some trouble getting it to resaw when I first got the machine.  The tech rep was excellent, spent considerable time on the phone with me.  Turned out I had a bad blade.  They replaced it for free, and the machine has worked great since.  It was the best customer support interaction I've had.  Sorry to hear others haven't had as good an experience.

1. 
   Jimma | Dec 15, 2002 07:10pm | #8

   I have the same model you do and also had trouble with the blade they supplied -- a one-inch stellite resaw blade. It wouldn't track right and kept jumping out of the Carter bearing guides and hitting the guard. I called and they sent a replacement blade (a 3/4 inch stellite) which also wouldn't stay in the guides. They sent another which was a little better, but kept giving me problems. At this point I didn't know which was the problem, the blade or the saw. So I tried a couple of Timberwolf blades and didn't have any difficulty, which made me wary of the blades supplied by Laguna (if you buy a stellite blade from them it's about $1 per inch). Yesterday I was going to saw some rough logs that I had dried for several years and thought the stellite blade would be a good choice due to the tough material and wide kerf of the blade, and it still kept jumping from the track. I finished the job with the Timberwolf. Conclusion? The 16 SEC is a good machine, Laguna's blades are not and they should have stopped supplying them. Makes you distrust their whole operation. Was this your experience also?

1. 
   emerckx | Dec 16, 2002 05:00am | #10

   Jim,

   I had trouble with a 1" resaw blade that they supplied. It stayed put on the wheels, tracked fine, just wouldn't cut straight, no matter what I did. I began to distrust my skill...I had resawed just fine on my old 14" saw. They sent me another blade that was better, but when I finally decided that it was the blades, I bought the timberwolf blades from suffolk machinery and the saw has worked fine since. The 1/4" blade that I got from Laguna has worked just fine. Laguna blades must not be very good. The tech support was quite curteous, and worked hard for me. They were willing to take the saw back at their expense, but fortunately it didn't come to that. I think the saw is pretty good. The table needed some work...it is a rought grind. I'm awaiting a fence upgrade, though I've tweaked their fence to be serviceable. All said, I'm happy with the saw.

   Mike

1. 
   Jimma | Dec 16, 2002 04:46pm | #11

   Yup. That's about par for them, I guess. Does your table have a U.S. miter gauge track -- 3/4 by 3/8 -- or a European one? Mine has the non-US type and it's a real pain. Guess I could haul it off to a machine shop to get it fixed, but I sure didn't know it was non-standard when I bought it.

2. 
   emerckx | Dec 16, 2002 04:51pm | #12

   My Unisaw miter guage fits it just fine. Maybe mine is a newer model...it's less than a year old.

3. 
   Jimma | Dec 16, 2002 05:10pm | #13

   I guess they changed it. Mine is about five years old. Thanks for the info. Those Timberwolf blades are really great, aren't they?

2. 
   user-135888 | Dec 23, 2002 01:23pm | #22

   Hi

   I've seen the other band saws and don't think there any better, ask yourself this is a door going to help me saw better, should I have two dust ports, Fit and finish better, I doubt it (mine is perfect). Also I bought my saw at a show they threw in a 1" carbide blade $1080 out the door and I paid tax too. good deal. I love this thing. the guy at eagle he ok,  he gave me a bad deal on a sr5.

   john g 

5. 
   JamesC67 | Dec 15, 2002 08:05pm | #9

   Mike, I personally have never purchased any tools from this company for the same reasons that you speak of.  Although I have had the same type of problems with Delta. With them I had very major type problems but on the other hand I've had to call Jet on minor problems the attitudes in both cases were very rude and  unhelpfull.  But on the other hand I was so sick of dealing with american made companies I decided to try Grizzly tools when I decided to buy a new table saw.  First of all when the tools were delivered the driver said that the company gave special instructions that the tools were to be uncrated and inspected not only by me but by him too and that if anything at all was wrong that said tool would be sent back at griz's expence.   After I got the tools set up in the shop I noticed the inner tightening knob on the miter adjusting wheel was missing from the inventory of parts when I called the rep was very curtiouse and helpfull infact he asked if I wanted a new saw or just the part personally I couldn't see sending a new saw for just that little knob (aspecially as heavy as this @#$%*&@% thing is ) I was very impressed when the part came the next day the rep sent it express delivery. The next day after the part came the rep called to find out if the part was delivered and to see if he could be of any further help I asked a couple minor questions about the set up of the jointer that I purchased at the same time of the saw he was very helpful and answered my questions.  As far as tools go I'm not real sure if one is a great deal better than the others I've used Jet,Delta,Powermatic and way at the lower end of tools I've also used craftsman and skil but I have to say for my money and experiance I think from now on I'll be sticking with Grizzly.  Others  probably have horor stories about them but until I do like I said I'll continue to buy Griz.

   Thank you all and Happy Holidays

   J.Clark

6. 
   woodctr | Dec 17, 2002 09:50pm | #20

   Mike,  Thaks for your letter.  I too am in the market for a good bandsaw and was considering Laguna.  After hearing of your trials, I believe I will steer clear of them.  It appears that their inconsideration of you will cost them many bucks from people like us.

   Take care.

   Al

1. 
   MSDMSD | Dec 18, 2002 05:21am | #21

   Al,

   I was also thinking about the Laguna BS.  I changed my mind when I saw the Mini Max at a Woodworking Show in Las Vegas.  The rep for Mini Max was friendly, answered all my questions, and showed me pictures of the Laguna BS.  As the rep and I went through the pictures it was obvious that the Mini Max was of better quality.

   My next question is how does the Mini Max compare to the Agazzani put out by Eagle Tools? 

   Enjoy the Holiday.

   MSD

7. 
   NOTRIX1 | Dec 23, 2002 07:59pm | #23

   How Crazy!!

   It's so arrogant that these comapnies think there is no competition for the business.

   I've always had great service from Delta and Porte Cable. I've purchased several Contractor saws and called in buy a manual and wrenches. These are 20+ year old machines and I received a manual, and in the PC case wrenches and collets as well, within 2 days! Both were used items that Delta and PC made not a penny on but treated me like a king.

   After break where I had no shop I've been retooling and while I looked a Jet I kept that Delta service in my back pocket and that tipped the scales as I bought a brand new Contractors saw from Delta. Sure enough I couldn't figure out the back lash adjustment and a tech spent 15 minutes with me as I laid undert the saw with cell phone basically walikg me through it and explaining what the manual didn't.

   Simple business logic. Even more important nowadays that we can reach millions with our complaints. I''m sure I'll remember this thread if ever tempted to buy Laguna.

   Thanks!

   W

1. 
   jazzdogg | Dec 24, 2002 08:18am | #24

   Three questions:

   1. What's it going to take for otherwise excellent companies, e.g., Delta, to improve the quality and comprehensiveness of the documentation that accompanies their machines, obviating the need for telephone calls placed from under a machine?

   2. Have any of you seen the ad for the lever that you retrofit to your bandsaw to "instantly" release/apply pressure to the BS blade?

   3. Do any of you know of an outfit that provides such a gizmo as a factory option?

   Thanks,

   Jazzdogg

1. 
   rslatm | Dec 24, 2002 04:31pm | #26

   1. I don't believe you will ever stop the phone calls to companies about machines. Mainly it's a level of comfort and expertise on machines. Perhaps if you had to take a class before you were allowed to purchase tools you would eliminate or minimize  the calls.

   2,3. carterproducts.com is the only one to have such a bandsaw gizmo to release blade tension.  I've never seen a saw that came with that feature in my 30  years of tool purchasing and repair.

2. 
   Vibart2 | Jan 01, 2003 08:39pm | #27

   Just thought I'd mention that some of the latest Grizzly saws come with this quick blade tension release as part of the saw.

1. 
   jazzdogg | Jan 02, 2003 12:48am | #28

   Arch & Bart - thanks for your responses.  If the tension-relief lever (or whatever it's called) works as advertised it ought to be available on other bandsaws in the future - unless it raises the price too much.

   Jazzdogg

3. 
   Dazz | Jan 08, 2003 12:15am | #35

   FYI - I saw the "new" Delta 14" Shopmaster bandsaw recently, and it  has a tension release lever built in, as well as a 4" dust collector port cast into the lower wheel housing. The price has been dropped to the $400 range, too. I believe it's essentially the same saw (with the above improvements) as the 14" we all know.  Makes me cringe to think I paid $700 for it!

1. 
   jazzdogg | Jan 08, 2003 08:26am | #36

   Dazz,

   Holy Coolblocks, Batman! An improved Delta 14" bandsaw at a reduced price?

   I don't know how things are in your neck of the woods, but where I live, Home Despot discontinued displaying Delta stationary tools when they got in bed with Ridgid. Maybe the improvements and price reductions are a response to dropping market share (and a pathetic economy).

   Or, being a cynic at heart, perhaps they've de-contented (to use an automotive euphamism for reducing quality) some of their products while adding conspicuous improvements, like 4" dust collection ports, to tempt the buying public with eye candy.

   Have you had a chance to eyball the "shopmaster" up close to see whether the quality is still ok? No plastic blade housings or cheap bearings in evidence?

   If the quality has been upheld while adding worthwhile improvements, fan-farking-tastic!

   Thanks for the update. Back to the bat cave,

   Jazzdogg

1. 
   Dazz | Jan 09, 2003 10:20pm | #37

   Jazzdog,

      I can't say that I closely examined the new Delta Shopmaster bandsaw, so I couldn't comment on the quality of things such as bearings.  I saw (no pun intended) the new machine at a Woodworkers' Warehouse (TrendLines) store in Massachusetts,  but didn't spend a lot of time on it. But the manager told me it was virtually the same saw, with enhancements. I believe it's now being advertised in magazines, selling for around $449 or so.  The cast iron was painted black, as I recall, and the quick-release lever pivoted in a hole in the upper arm of the casting; it seemed simpler than the Carter add-on.  And the dust port should be a big improvement, too- hopefully it will grab the dust before it gets scrunched between the blade and tire.  But, best of all, a far better price !!  My understanding is that Delta merely slapped the 'Shopmaster' name on its existing products, and lowered their prices. Time will tell.

   Now, care to explain the moniker "Jazzdog" ?

2. 
   jazzdogg | Jan 09, 2003 11:07pm | #39

   Thanks for the feedback, Dazz. Shall I infer from your post, and from the fact that I couldn't find any reference to a Shopmaster saw on the Delta website that they're marketing a new product line a la Senco's Accuset line; as though Lexus had come first and subsequently introduced the Toyota product line?

   Now, care to explain the moniker "Jazzdog" ?

   Well, Dazz, It's actually pretty simple. When my wife was alive, she was a dog fanatic and one of my chief avocations was playing jazz bass. I made up the name "Jazzdoggs" first as an e-mail address, then used it as the name for my woodworking business. My wife's friends used to ask what "the Jazzdogg" was up to (Where was I playing music? What was I building? Was I behaving?), and, what started as an inside joke among her friends eventually became a nickname of sorts. Now that she's gone, the Jazzdogg moniker is also a bit of a touchstone with the past.

   Now, as to Dazz... ?

3. 
   Dazz | Jan 14, 2003 05:43pm | #40

   Jazzdogg,

    The origin of 'Dazz' is similar .... I make a living as a database techie and software writer. One day years ago a co-worker was reading a sports magazine that had a feature story about a basketball player (can't remember who), and it referred to him as the "Dazzlin' Dude". Well, they started calling me that as a joke because I wrote a nifty little software package for us, and that then got shortened to "dazz". And that stuck.

   I don't know any more about the Delta Shopmaster line than what I've already written, but I'm sure you'll be seeing it soon at a 'toy store' near you.

8. 
   nikkiwood | Dec 24, 2002 09:26am | #25

   I would like to applaud you for taking the time to tell us about your experience with Laguna. They are smart enough marketeers to understand the traditional importance of "word-of-mouth". This forum magnifies that impact.

   For my part, I bought a bandsaw from this outfit a couple of years ago, and while I was fortunate not to have the kind of problems you have had, I too experienced, at times, an attitude that could only be descri ed as sarcastic and supercilious.

   I would urge you to also write a short, concise letter to the woodworking magazines where these people advertise -- esp. American Woodworker, Fine Woodworking, and Wood.

   Good luck, and thank you again.

9. 
   Inletjoe | Jan 02, 2003 07:28am | #29

   To all,

    Like Mike ,I purchased tools from Laguna over the past several years and will not be back.The band saw they used to sell is what I have and their rep told me that he might be able to get some parts.Their X31 came with a manual that only they can understand and then they developed a new manual for $25.00 that was of general info which any owner would know by figuring out himself.The ripping fence didnt allign level with the table,thats why they now offer the Knapp fence (Only $572.00 plus frt and 3 month wait)Attitude---Get in line! I had to buy this thing so that I could use the saw and joiner wih some precision.But $572.00 plus.No rebate just attatude.

      At the International Woodworking show in Atlanta this past August I stopped by their booth to look at their new lathe and table saw.After that unpleasant experience,I went over to the Jet booth and bought the Powermatic lathe which I love.I also purchase a saw and air purifier and they sent the wrong purifier and when I called they took care of it right away with no attatude.Well, thats about it. I am done with Laguna . Hello !

10. 
    joe.roth | Jan 05, 2003 05:04pm | #30

    I am very sorry to hear of your problems with Laguna tools. My story is a little different. I purchased a bs from them early last year at a woodworking show. When I called to check on availability the week after the show I was told they oversold  their stock but they had a more that ample supply in transit and it might be a week or 10 days before I could get delivery. I told them I was in a bit of a need-we all want our toys asap-and that I had a project that I needed it for- the truth. So they took one off their showroom floor and dusted it off and I took a quick look at it and took it home. Once it was home and I started to check it out I found that the fence had been scored from the blade being to close, and called them. They sent a new one out overnight shipping, and I live only 25 minutes driving time away from their offices. Once the new fence was received I was prepared to send the damaged one back when a delivery service knocked on the door ready to pick it up. Soooooo I would give a little balance to this discussion by saying my experience with them was quite customer orientated and satisfying.

    Happy New Year to all

    Joe

11. 
    chairmake1 | Jan 07, 2003 02:09am | #32

    Mike-

    It sounds like you;'ve really had the run around with Laguna and your purchase and I hope that things will settle down for you and this all will pass.

    I've bought several pcs. of equipment from Laguna , but I have nothing but an excellant experince. The bandsaw and the other equipment all preform above average and when I did have a problem the fix and the conversation was just a phone call away - thenk goodness as I'm in Texas and it's a long way to Calif.-

    There are always more than two sides to a story and I'm sure that tempers ran hot in both directions - especilly with the list of problems that you have had with this pcs. of equipment.

    I hope all of this works out to your advantage.

    Robert Phillips

12. 
    billballeza | Jan 07, 2003 02:30am | #33

    Man, what a horror story. You're to be congratulated for your restraint. I buy tools from three sources only.. and service is the reason. When it comes to tech help, returns and refunds, and friendliness; you can't beat Sears, Home Depot and The Cutting Edge. Some people look down on Craftsman and Rigid and Ryobi but, as they say, to each his own.

    bill

13. 
    wop | Jan 07, 2003 02:54am | #34

       If you are interested in high end have a look at Felder. I got a combination machine from them two years ago after two previous Mini-max machines. Felder machines are in a class by themselves. The only time I had a tecnical problem the distributer had an engineer from the company in Austria call me back and resolve the problem in  no time.

                                       Philip

    P.S. Felder band saws are made here in Italy as such I recommend Agazzani instead it is the second best on the market here.

14. 
    hoffman | Jan 09, 2003 10:46pm | #38

    Mike the reasons you state are the reasons I bought a Wilke.They offer excellent support and a high quality product.I have their 22 inch bandsaw and have no complaints and I am picky son of a gun. Dan