Hello folks, just wanted to see if anyone else out there has had dealings with Laguna Tools.
I purchased an X31 combination machine from them over a year ago, when it arrived, it was missing parts and some parts arrived damaged. Worst of all there were no, I repeat NO set up instructions for this machine sent with it. The operator’s manual that was shipped with it was smaller and less informative than the one I recieved with my Dewalt cordless drill.
What they show on the website is NOT the machine you recieve, they sent it out with a cheap stamped steel mitre guide on the sliding fence, not the cast iron one show in the photo.
I have tried for over a year to get the issues resolved with this machine, first with the sales person, then customer service.
Anyone else had dealings with this company?
James
Replies
My experience has been variable, but I've never had major issues, either. Looks like you might have a bait-and-switch problem if what you bought isn't what you got. If I were you I'd try for the top guy and not give up til I got him. Those other guys just have jobs, not ownership.
I purchased a Laguna 16" bandsaw and will admit never having set up a bandsaw before that the instructions were very confusing and I couldn't get it to track correctly. I went to the Ontario CA woodworking show and started to let the owner Torbin have a earful when he asked where I lived which was 15 min away so he came to my house after the show. It turned out my top wheel was out of balance and he sent me a new one, I'll still admit the instructions suck for a beginner to understand but thats great customer service and the bandsaw is now my favorite tool. Call Torbin about your problem.
Hmmmmmmm
I wonder what your customer service experience would have been if you didn't live 15 minutes away and hadn't managed to get to the owner.
Good customer service is when companies bend over backwards if you live in Nunavut and can only get through to an operator.
Still its great you got your problem solved.
JustJames, I have to be carefull out of respect for this web-site not to go off the deep end when it comes to Laguna tools. I made the mistake of purchasing one of thier band saws lt-18 almost 9 years ago. If having everything wrong and learning from mistakes may have contributed to my level of bandsawmanship. Question(?) how can anything as simple as a band saw have problems Answer Laguna. What they sent me was not what was seen on the demo video. What they unloaded on me was Sagitarius manufactured band saw, What they did not tell was that they had switched manufacturers and were unlaoding their stock of poorly made saws on an unsuspecting public.Follows my list of greivence
It was delivered with a table that was warped 3/16" (out feed end)
Sand in the rack and pinion for raising upper guide.
Not coplaner(I had to adjust the factory set on lower wheel)
4point table leveling in stead of trunion.
A fence that wouldn't fasten to table 90 degrees AKA plumb, besides
if your into band saws a rigid fence set up wont allow for blade
drift so whats the point anyway of including a rigid fence? Perhaps
European craftmanship??
Overencumbered with different types of hardware from everything from
upper and lower guides to table set.
Very poor access to lower guides
Low quality guides.
I found Laguna to have an arrogant condesending management backed by ####duplictous sales staff.I made the mistake of purchasing a variable pitch re-saw blade that no one in the eastern US can sharpen. My litany of complaints fell on deaf ears. I made contact with 2 of thier employees that were professionals and they were fired eventually. The name of the game with Laguna is after market and in speaking with
various manufactures of guides they all have former laguna customers trying to uprade thier band saws out side the laguna company.
If I go on I'll get stuck between teretz and primal screaming. In short my experience with laguna causes me to wonder if the owners ever worked wood and that its a case of slick advertising trading european junk for american dollars
Bufun
I had (have, because you have to live with some of them forever) a couple of the same issues. The one that really bugs me is the miter gauge track -- it is a shallow metric slot that's wider than 3/4 so you can't just get it reground and, of course, that means I have to live with little toy miter gauge they provided. The documentation that came with it is made up from different photocopied pages from obviously different tools. I'd never do business with them again.
How much wider than 3/4 is it? I remember a kit that used holes bored through any miter gauge and used setscrews and cool block type slugs to take up slop. Might be something to consider, I think it would probably work if the gap is not too large.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Plain and simple folks: Laguna SUCKS. How many more stories do we need to hear? They are like a bunch of shady used car salesman types who are so happy to sell you a machine - any machine they can flog you - but god help you if you have a problem afterwards and need what the company euphemistically refers to as "customer support".I hope Hoffmann in Germany has the fine sense to disassociate their fine products from Laguna, but last I saw Laguna were there sales reps for N. America.I look forward to the day when the negative experiences so many have had with this company drown out the incessant marketing campaign that clearly is keeping them afloat and looking for the next sucker.I really can't be too strong in my words condemning the company - I wonder if any Laguna people will read this and actually take steps to correct their corporate culture in the aims of actually servicing customers properly. Probably not.
Nice suggestion, but I've taken to using workarounds when I need the function -- like various jigs. It's not a major handicap, but then I felt it was like a shortcoming of the tool that was simply undisclosed by the sales types. I never suspected a shallow metric slot and a six-inch miter gauge would be shipped with a $1200 band saw. A machine shop told me they could make a new slot for a standard miter gauge, but the thin amount of iron left might cause the table to warp. It's just not worth it and it isn't needed for most of the stuff I do (like resawing).
Jimma, somebody wrote in that Torbin is a nice guy and isn't aware of whats going on. I think thats part of the scam. another question that comes to peoples minds is "if it wasn't right why did you keep it?" In my case the saw was put to immediate use diagonally ripping pressure treated 6bys for a contract job and it was only as I got into the tool did I begin to discover its limitations So, like Opie in the crack den I felt things would eventually work out. To make a long story short I ventured into free form or organic style work and became adept at this style to the point that galleries like some of my boxes. This was a result of overcomming the factory fubas and becomming aware of the eccentricies of accurately setting up and tuning the Lt-18 I had purchased. The process I went through I refer as my musical period, since I cant get static on a radio but tuning up that band saw was like learning how to play an instrument. One of the most important strides I made was switching to timberwolf blades since they are tensioned visually. Timberwolf blades allowed me to advance to a higher level and kept me fairly sane. In conclusion, if you read from others the history of complaints about Laguna one can easily assume that when cornered they act innocent. I ,however, feel that the owners cant be that out of touch with the day to day realities of their bussiness and if you look at the advertising Torbin makes a big deal out of his awards for woodworking. My point being if he's such a hot-licks worker, why does he allow over and over again his name to be associated with dissatisfaction and junk craftsmanship? My conclusion "Its a Scam"
There have bitter complaints over the years around here about the customer service at Laguna.
I bought one of their 16" bandsaws some years ago, and every time I had some issue with it, I was dealt with in what could only be described as a supercilious manner.
Then about a year or so ago -- about the same time MiniMax started to make serious inroads in the market -- I got a call from one of their people, wanting to know "how everything is going". He answered all my questions, apologized profusely for past sins, and sent me an expensive blade in recompense.
The irony here is that the person who owns and built the business, Torben Helshoj, is a good and decent guy. Nobody can understand why he seems to employ customer service people who are snide jerks.
The moral of this story is that you should go through the regular channels to solve your Laguna problems, but keep careful notes. If you don't get satisfaction, I would write him Torben) a careful letter spelling out the problems and what you want him to do. I would save your rants for Knots, but at the same time I would tell him you frequent a variety of woodworking forums, and you would prefer to get the problem fixed, rather than be forced to vent your frustrations on these internet woodworking forums.
In the past disgruntled individual consumers were of little concern to those trying to sell products to the large audience of woodworkers. I think they are finally beginning to realize that many of us come to these forums to better inform our buying decisions, and seeing stories like yours aired on a public forum does not do much for their cause.
Good luck.
********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Funny thing about trying to work through the channels at Laguna's "customer service" they keep changing the head of the department. Today I spoke with Amber Farahani, the new and improved head of customer service. She assured me she was different than all the past people in charge, but she also stated that Laguna Tools has NEVER taken a machine back due to lack of customer satisfaction or legal actions. They consider it "humorous" people trying to publicize they lack of service.
I do fully intend to continue to post all the problems with this company in hopes that potential buyers will look else where for they woodworking equipment, and save themselves the hardships of dealing with Laguna Tools.
Today Amber once again emailed me photos of X31 machines in an effort to identify missing parts of my machine. Why can't they just have a Shipping invoice listing all parts that where shipped, or supposed to be shipped with their equipment. She also reluctantly offered to send out a factory tech to help with the machine once we identified all missing parts.
If I as an ex firefighter, had put out fires like Laguna Tools deals with service issues, I'm afraid we would end up with a much larger fire than Chicago and San Fransico put together.
Or you could buy from another manufacturer until Laguna gets its act together. Maybe they could send some of their CS people to Lee Valley for schooling... After they establish that they are serious about CS for 2-3 years, then they can reap the benefits.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
It sounds like the issue is much deeper than customer service. Most machines are made outside North America - and they are usually made in "contract" shops - few tools manufacturers have their own captive manufacturing facilities in Asia.
So the firms that market/sell here can be divided into two groups - those who design, contract and then monitor the manufacturing operation. Examples are the big names - Delta, Jet/Powermatic, General, Grizzly, etc.
Then you have the second group - they don't design or engineer or monitor manufacturing - they buy product designed and built for whoever wants to buy them. I have a hunch you would be hard pressed to find a serious design or mechanical engineer in the Laguna office. And I have a further hunch that the majority of their employees have never really assembled and used their machines for any period of time.
As I said in an earlier post, lots of red flags - time to look at more reliable equipment!
As far as I can tell, Laguna sells good machines, but this CS problem has been going on for years. Even if Torben Helshoj is a fine fella and a good marketeer, as the owner, he is also the one responsible for creating the culture at Laguna and the resultant miserable CS. It's hard to figure out how they have managed to maintain their business with such a persistent, bad rep for CS. You just can't expect to sell these big machines by mail order unless you back up the enterprise with first rate CS.Certainly, I would never buy another machine from them, and I always counsel would-be buyers to look elsewhere.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Call the manufacturer and tell them the problem you are having with the distributor. I did that once with a company that was in England and got a letter of apology along with what I requested. They also told me they would speak with the distributor. I had a tool back in nine days from the time I sent it from my home in CA to England and back.
Complaints about Laguna have been bouncing around for some time. So there is one red flag. Go to their web site and you will find several of their "hot Links" don't work - attention to detail - another red flag. Buying machinery today is hard to do - most machines are now made outside North America, so you are now very dependant upon the US distribution operation, be it Laguna or Grizzly or Delta or Jet/Powermatic/WMH or General.
One of the big fallacies with "tool tests and reviews" is that they only look at out of the box machines. That's only part of the story. What about looking at the machines after a year of use - is the owner still satisfied and would they buy again from the vendor?
It would be great if Taunton teamed with a major survey operation like JD Power to do that "year later" follow-up as well as gauge customer service and frequency of repair. None of these items by themselves are perfect but the more you know about a machine - data, not just anecdotes - is important in making an informed decision. Taunton could distinguish themselves in the woodworking and construction business by providing - even selling - that kind of info.
In the meantime, buyer beware. Before I buy any tool or machine, I visit shops that use them continuously to get a good idea what works and what doesn't. And a great place to check portable tools is a contractor's rental shop - they can't tolerate machines that give up easily or are difficult to get parts. You have to do your homework. And just a little bit of homework on Laguna shows too many red flags at least for my money and time.
I'm a professional woodworker with over 30 years experience in buying, setting up and daily using shop equipment. I bought a Laguna Bandsaw 6 yrs ago - those sharp black adds must have subliminally seduced me. The worst tool I have ever purchased. Since then, I have sought to invent the word for something that is so shoddily produced that it simply will not perform the function it is designed to do.
Long short, when the motor went, again, I did get them to admit that their "customer service dept" is any salesperson with nothing to do - there was no customer service. All marketing, no backup.
On Woodweb, there is a current thread on panel saws that relates this "nice guy" Torben as telling a prospective buyer inquiring about tolerances that it is "just wood, what can you expect?" Ironically, Laguna used to (may still have) a forum on their site with all sorts of complaints about the product, the people, the service - you name it. There it all was in black and gray, all over their own site. Occasionally, Torben's wife would get on the site and screech at a few posters in retaliation. Real family business. It also took 5 e-mail requests from me to get them to stop spamming me with ads, and I never signed up to get any e-mails from them.
I now know they prey (no better word) on the woodworker that is moving from hobby to serious hobby or semi- pro to pro, and know they will only sell the unsuspecting schmo one or two pieces. These buyers will be less likely to complain because they simply don't have much experience with "serious equipment" - as they told me. But, as the demographics show, if one or two pcs to every woodworker x $xxxx equals huge bucks for that nice Torben, with a slew of poor equipment in his wake.
Dave Sochar
Acorn Woodworks, Inc.
About three years ago I bought a Knapp Combi 410T from Laguna. Benjamin, Torben’s brother sold it to me. After unpacking and installing the machine we started to hook it up. When we opened up the cover to the electrical panel we discovered that we had received a three phase 220 volt version. We called Laguna. After a few back and forth calls that took about one hour we had a commitment from the Laguna crew that a phase converter had been ordered and would be on its way the next day.
When it arrived two days later, we called an electrician. He hooked up the converter, took about five hours. We turned on the machine and it worked fine. A couple of days later a check from Laguna covering our expense for the electrician etc. arrived in the mail.
A year later I bought a Laguna 24 band saw. All I can say about it is that I will not part from it, no matter what. It is a superior machine. All my dealings with Laguna have been very satisfying.
Am I the only one in this whole wide world that can say that?
Stig
Valley Center, California
I can't answer your question, except to say it is often a matter of numbers and stats. I don't have numbers for Laguna. From admittedly anecdotal experience some manufacturers- such as Lie-Nielsen, Lee Valley and General seem to have very few complaints. There is also a reporting bias, as people are more likely to report bad experiences than good ones. Lastly, there are some customers who cannot be "serviced". They may raise extreme demands and be essentially impossible to please.I don't think that where or by whom the machine is manufactured makes too much difference. Apple makes well designed, innovative products at different factories- but their customer service is frequently criticized. Lee Valley sells products that are manufactued by others, but they always seem to stand behind them- as does LL Bean. As a result, I am much more likely to purchase something sight unseen from these vendors, as I know I can work a return if I need to. Since that doesn't happen very often, the vendors make out quite well.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Let's hear it for Lee Valley and BOO, HISSS Laguna Tools
Lee Valley has great customer service. My shop is filled with items that work as intended from them. I have a friend who wasn't happy with a turning product and had tried to make it work in the usual woodworker style. At IWF last week they said send it back we will pay shipping we appreciate your business. The owner of Lee Valley has talked with me about his products and philosophy at IWF and that company is great from the top down!
Laguna is a different story. Their salesmen put down other products and bug the H--- out of you with calls and messages and push resaw, resaw, resaw. They sickened me to a point that I just dropped the urge to upgrade my bandsaw until a year later I saw an Agazzani B 20. Great saw. It's the Powermatic 66 of Italian bandsaws. We had a dealer in GA 100 miles away that had the saw in stock for a year. The price was too high and they provided no real reason to do business with them, so I purchased it from Eagle Tools in CA and paid shipping to GA. I try to vote for a company with my business.
After $380 shipping it was $75 less than buying it from Redmond Machinery in Atlanta. Jesse and the people at Eagle test the tool, make sure everything is square, crate it in 175 lbs. of plywood after it has been cleaned and shrinkwrapped. I put a blade on, tensioned it and started to cut. It was smooth as silk! They also went to an electrical vendor across the street and bought a 10 foot cord and attached it to say thank you for your business.
Eagle Tools, Lee Valley and Highland Hardware in Atlanta are my favorites. They care!
I was wondering if someone would mention Agazzani on this thread. Three yrs ago I was about to but a Laguna, but decided to shop around after hearing so many reports of spotty after sales service. Eagle tools in LA is 2 hrs away from me so drove down there one day. The salesman (John Wee) seemed more of a fellow woodworker than a salesman; just showed me the machine (Agazzani 18") and demonstrated how it worked. It was an end of year model so he gave me a discount and threw in 2 extra blades. He also loaded it into my pick-up for me so I didn't pay anything for shipping. It works great and I am happy I bought it. Gary
I bought a General 6" jointer from Eagle Tools near LA and found them to be great to deal with.
The specific problems I had mostly dealt with their use of a European rated voltage motor, with a big ol' capacitor stuck on to get it to run. It did run, and got so hot it baked the motor's paint off. Nothing like the smell of something burning in a brand new 5,000s/f shop! They tried to bill me over $65.00 plus overnight for a capacitor that when it did arrive 5 days later, did not even fit in the housing. I got one at Grainger's for about $12.00.
The second motor was different voltage again, and was wired up differently. Got it working so we could see all the guides smoke. The five blades they gave me all broke on the weld with less than two hours on each. It is so obvious that Laguna is making it up as they go along. There is no plan other than sell, sell, sell.
We replaced the motor, replaced the guides with Carter, found some good blades, tuned the damn thing up and now use it daily.
Laguna has behaved very badly for years. When someone says "the market will sort things out," - how long will it take?
Dave S
To All,
I actually had money down on a Laguna TSS table saw this week. As a result of what I have learned from this current discussion about Laguna equipment and service ,and others in the past on this site, I have cancelled my order and am looking at other Co's for my table saw purchase. There was just to much smoke and red flags for me to go ahead with this purchase and I'm not even in the business of making a living at woodworking. I did find a few posts on this site and on the Laguna site who have had positive experiences with their customer service. I think what broke the camels back for me was when I came across a positive post from a College that was using their saws. I happened to be out talking with an employee at the local Rockler Store and was mentioning to him that I was looking for another table saw as an upgrade to my powermatic 66. It just so happened that this employee also worked at ,or at one time worked at this same College. He told me that that their table saws did work well when they worked. He said that those positive comments must have come from a student who attended there or were made after they started having problems. He told me they had one of their Laguna table saws go down and it took a whole year to get the part from them so it could be fixed. As I stated before I am not doing this for a living , but even I wouldn't want to be out the use of my table saw for a whole year. let alone a few months. Sorry Laguna. I hope at least some of your employees are reading all these posts so that it will instill change within your Co. One previous post on this site mentioned that most of the employees that work at Laguna don't actually work with their equipment as woodworkers. I mentioned the service problem they are having to an employee of a competitor Co. and he told me that part of the problem is that they only have one Tech guy so that makes it difficult for them to put out all the fires.
Edited 8/29/2006 5:37 pm ET by brownman
Congratulations! You definitely made the right decision to stay away from Laguna. Kudos.
Brownman, If my cathartic tirade contributed in any small way to your decision than my day has been made, Lagunas treatment of myself pushed major dumb btoons on me and Ive made a point of telling anyone who likes working wood to stayaway from that bunch. I love this web-site.
Bufun
I've been lurking on this thread since it began and would like to add my two cents. Brownman, congratulations on following your instincts and canceling your order. I have learned that life is too short to mess around with companies that don't back up their merchandise. There is always someone who will make a quality tool who will offer good CS and may be cheaper to boot. I buy on EBay a bit, and I won't even consider someone if their feedback is less than 99%, unless there are extenuating circumstances. If you dig into their feedbacks, you will find a hit and miss operation. There are too many other vendors with 100% feedback and you don't need to waste your time with someone who may not deliver on their promise/merchandise.
I was VERY close to buying a Laguna 14SE bandsaw, and have been very impressed by the reviews given by FWW on their tools. I won't even consider them now. Why has FWW not stepped in here on this thread? Of course if FWW had a problem, I'm sure Laguna would be there pronto! Good luck with your purchase and caveat emptor! Tom
"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
I, too, was planning on buying a Laguna TS after reading the cabinet saw review in FWW, which indicated that the TS is manufactured to such tight tolerances. After reading all the comments about the problems Laguna has shipping a complete, useable machine, I have changed my mind and will be looking for a Powermatic 2000 instead. Thanks to all who have shared their experiences with the company.
I have owned my Powermatic 66 for about 15 years now and I absolutely love it. Powermatic makes a great saw. You know that for years the Powermatic 66 was the Standard work horse in most cabinet shops for many years until they all went with the European panel saws. Check on Amazon.com for prices. I bought mine through them and got free shipping and didn't have to pay taxes. I really want to have a saw with a good quality sliding table for squaring up panels, but I decided I could wait another year or so. A really good upgrade for the fence that comes with the Powermatic would be the digital measuring system from Accurate Technologies. They are holding their discount on these from the IWF wood show thru Thursday of this week, if your interested. I'm probably going to get one myself. With them you can make very accurate repeatable cuts among other things.
Good information. Thanks.
I would urge you to send an email to Laguna (directly to Torben Helshoj, if you can get his address) telling him what happened to you and why you made the decision not to buy from them.You might also include a link to this thread. Doing so would enhance the power of Knots and other wwing forums, which I think is a good thing.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Thanks for the suggestion. It is a good one .I'll be sure and do this.
Danny
Go to Laguna's site and find the link to their forums. Torben has authored a few selected responses, and his name is underlined as a link. He will likely be on vacation now that the Atlanta show is over, so don't expect a fast response. His wife also handles some extreme customer handling.
" His wife also handles some extreme customer handling."
That she does . . .
Everyone, just to keep you informed, if you're still interested, I'm following some of your advice, still after more than a YEAR. This week after speaking with their "new" customer service department head Amber, my sales person Carl Knapp called me outta the blue to discuss my X31 machine. An hour on the phone with him, we still hadn't resolved the issues, or come up with any solution, he kept saying how easy it is for him to set up the machine yet he still didn't offer to send out a tech person to help get the problems resolved.
He did however finally give me the owner's wife's email address and Greg Golblat's email address. So I've sent off emails to both of them requesting a refund for my machine due to lack of confidence in their equipment and their service department. I'll keep you posted on the outcome, not that I expect anything other than another Laguna Tools shuffle.
I too have read the tool reviews in Fine woodworking, and Fine Homebuilding and wondered why there couldn't be a follow up on those reviews, because I wouldn't want to buy another thing from Laguna even if it did have a wonderful review due to the poor customer service from the company.
Have a SAFE and Happy Labor day everyone.
>>my sales person Carl Knapp called me outta the blue to discuss my X31 machine.<<
How funny. Carl was the salesperson at MiniMax who sold me my MM16 before he turned to the dark side. He was nice enough then :)
Pete
I have owned a General 350 table saw for 22 years and it has never given me any trouble. At the time it was cheaper than a Delta unisaw. Their tools are at http://www.general.ca
After reading all this that Rikon is looking better all the time
Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
This has to be the CRAZIEST company I've EVER dealt with. After yet another phone call from Carl Knapp, at least a 30 minute call about how it was terrible that I had resorted to posting things on the internet about this, and how it has "upset" Catherine, the owner's wife. Apparently they all have decided not to communicate with me anymore.
After the phone call from Carl about how Catherine had not recieved my email, even though I used the direct link to her address suppied to me by Carl, and even though I had CC both Carl Knapp and Greg G on this, no one at the company seemed to follow up on this, until Catherine apparently stumbled onto this, or my posting on their website.
After my 30 minutes of listening to Carl, we ended the conversation without resolving anything. Carl did mention, "what if I posted comments about your cabinetmaking online" to which I asked, when have I ever built any cabinets for you or your company? I explained to him that in my 20 years of building cabinets for a number of people I have NEVER repeat NEVER had a customer complaint that I did not correct anything they asked me to, whether it cost me more money or not. Its just the kind of person I am. I do Zero advertising, yet I'm constantly booked with work, its amazing what word of mouth does for you.
Now my goal I suppose will be to make sure as many people know about this so that they do not have to go through this. If you do a google on X31's you'll find a wonderful article from the Rosary Shop in CA and their experience with this company and their lack of follow up and customer service and lack of knowledge about their equipment.
I still leave the door open for the people at Laguna Tools to try to make this right, and actually supply the missing/damaged parts, and a tech person to come check out the machine, but I don't hold my breathe on this.
To me its amazing that a company's customer service is dependant upon the owner's wife's temperment and whether she finds a discussion board article about her company. If she's worried about their reputation perhaps she should "FIX" her customer service department so that her customer's don't have to resort to this.
I think I've been MORE than understanding and not seeking legal remedies to this. Any woodworking attorney's out there with advice?
I'm waiting on replacement parts from Laguna for my two saws delivered August 4th...this thread is making me more and more nervous. Still, I hope for a happy ending soon.I'd say the customer service has been poor to reasonable. The product is great is some ways and awfull in others. For this kind of money I expect better and can see why their reputation is so bad and their product so rarely seen. I've saved the saw shipping crate, just in case the parts I need turn out to back ordered or some such nonsense.
This thread reminds me of what I once said over 40 years ago. If you want to buy junk then go to the junk yard and get it for junk prices. Scrap iron is sold by the ton.
Have you called or sent an Email to the manufacturer. There is always the better business bureau and the courts. Send them a registered letter explaining the problem and what you expect giving them a reasonable time to fix the problem and if it is not fixed by a certain date then you will carry out some legal action. Then do it.
While it is not normal policy for a company to post a reply to a series of comments made about a product, employee or the corporation in general, Laguna Tools is making an exception due to the negative comments made by JustJames.We do not believe that public forums are the place to resolve issues and would have preferred to keep the communication private and professional.
JustJames is a Laguna Tools customer with a number of issues that we have spent the last week researching with numerous employees. Regrettably due to the long holiday weekend and business circumstances it has taken an unusual amount of time to fully investigate some of this customers threats and comments.
Today JustJames has received by fax and an e-mail a copy of our response to his e-mails and postings on the Internet. To the best of our knowledge we have addressed all of this customers issues and we have requested that JustJames put in writing any other items of concern.
Laguna Tools may not be a perfect company - and we recognize that employees may make mistakes and once these are brought to our attention these errors will be addressed. We value our customers and encourage customers to put in writing any legitimate concerns which will be thoroughly reviewed by the management of the company.
Both Torben and I are hands-on business people who take much pride in the company, our products and employees. Our goal is to achieve 100% customer service satisfaction and although this might be considered an unrealistic goal it is one we strive for on a daily basis. We send hundreds of customer surveys each month and in the most recent evaluation have reached above 95% in customer satisfaction and customer service for the products purchased through our company.
It is our sincere goal to assist JustJames and his issues to an amicible resolution.
Torben and Catherine Helshoj
Well, that takes care of Justjames for sure!
Now, how about the 2-4-6-8 years of complaints as referenced in this and other forums?
What percentage of the company's resources are full time dedicated to customer service?
And the big one, How can so many people be so wrong about Laguna?
Dave Sochar (Laguna LT 18, 2 failed motors, bad capacitors, switches, etc. 1999)
Acorn Woodworks, Inc
Some observations on your comments:"We do not believe that public forums are the place to resolve issues and would have preferred to keep the communication private and professional."I'm sure JustJames would have preferred to keep the communication private and professional. However, as he stated in his first post, these issues have been going on for over a year. Obviously the private and professional route wasn't giving him satisfaction. "Regrettably due to the long holiday weekend and business circumstances it has taken an unusual amount of time to fully investigate some of this customers threats and comments."An unhappy customer IS a business circumstance."We send hundreds of customer surveys each month and in the most recent evaluation have reached above 95% in customer satisfaction and customer service for the products purchased through our company."This means that approximately 1 out of 20 of your customers are dissatisfied. That's a lot.
Memo
To: Catherinehelshojlaguna
From: GlauconRe: Your recent post1. While it is possible for a single customer to be dissatisfied, and even unreasonable, the quantity and tenor of the supporting posts by others strongly indicate that Laguna does not provide adequate customer service.2. It is unlikely that your tepid excuses for this (apparently) long standing problem will satisfy either James or potential customers on Knots.3. It is unlikely that serious WWrs will pay Laguna's price point, when other manufacturers make and support machines better for less. Why would someone pay more for the uncertainty of you CS and parts supply chain?4. A modest suggestion: why not train and support your CS employees so that they can provide better service? You could send them to Canada on a contract to Lee Valley. They seem to know how to do customer service, perhaps they can teach you how to do it as well.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
>We value our customers and encourage customers to put in writing any legitimate concerns <
If you don't mind me saying so (and I'm sure you don't since you've chosen to participate in this public forum sponsored by Taunton), that's a load of BS.
Here's a suggestion to improve your reputation (and I'm sure that you're open to a suggestion since, once again you've chosen to engage the good people on this forum):
Hire people that can take the information over the phone and be knowledgeable enough to respond to it. Then fix the customer's problem.
No need to thank me. You're quite welcome. Sincerely, Ed Harrison
CatherineI'm a Quality Control Inspector in Aerospace (in case anyone wondered about the screen name) . While I realize you are trying to put a better face on the situation between yourselves and JustJames. It has come a bit late, comes across as defensive, and gives the appearance that it is largely JustJames's fault. In "Quality" it was always known that a happy customer will tell about 7 people about their experience, and an unhappy customer will tell 22. A 3 to 1 ratio and that was the driving reason why it was so important to satisfy the customer especially for 'word of mouth' business. That was before the internet. Now a disgruntled customer has the ability to reach tens of thousands, if not millions. It becomes imperative for a business to do more to keep the customer happy. Something that, judging by the number of posters that have backed up JustJames, you have been unable always accomplish. The damage to your company has also started to show by the people that have reconsidered or cancelled orders.You are going to need to take this entire experience and try to make the needed changes to the way the entire quality culture at Laguna is handled, from the machines themselves, to delivery and customer service.I would suggest that you always have people quickly monitoring the various forums using their search function (the word Laguna should be enough) each day to be there to follow and respond to problems and questions before they become major and damaging. A quick and helpful pro-active response by Laguna will do far more to further your company than having to go on the defensive when it's gotten out of hand. You stated that "it is not normal policy" to comment on forums. It should be! It has become the way most of us disseminate information good and bad. If a company chooses to ignore it it may end up as road kill on the info highway.
One last thought:As to whether posting on internet forums should be normal policy for a company, you might want to look at Rob Lee's participation on WoodCentral. His company happens to be Lee Valley Tools, and he has engendered a lot of goodwill by actively participating on that forum. There are many posts on that forum about the excellent customer service that Lee Valley provides. Certainly, the fact that Lee Valley Tools seems to respond quickly to customer complaints is a key factor, but then the satisfied customers go on to post about their positive experience, and that must have something to do with Mr. Lee's participation on the internet.You can make your own decision about what kind of PR you want to have for Laguna Tools, but the freedom to tell others about their experience, positive or negative, with any company is a fact of life that the internet provides, and participation in this communication can be a positive thing.
Several years ago I worked in management for the largest hardwood distributor in the US. The owner demanded that we take care of the customer. His philosophy was that the customer is the reason we exist. The company was awarded one of the top awards ever given to a business for ethics in business in America.When a customer buys a product he buys it in good faith trusting that it will work and do what the company claims it will do. You as the representative should do everything possible to make the customer happy or give him his money back. There is not a company who makes every product perfect. Nobody likes getting a bad product. When a bad product is purchased it is up to the company's representative to take care of the customer.THe first rule in business is "The customer is always right." You have not mastered that. Instead you have clearly shown your true colors by blaming an inferior product on the customer. I would avoid buying the greatest product ever built if you handled it, simply because of your attitude. Obviously you do not understand how important customer service is to the success of your business. When people do not get satisfaction with a company they often take it elsewhere or an open forum like this. Obviously this forum has gotten your attention. If you had taken care of your customers they would not have posted negative comments on this forum. Do you really think they are all liars and enjoy complaining about your dealership?
Got ya, Nine years ago I made the mistake of buying from Laguna(see#5this posting).One of your representatives called me and asked if I would be interested in demonstrating your product to potential buyers, at that time I told your representative my list of wrongs! (see #5 & #15 this posting). After that not a beep from Laguna!!!! The only people that helped me straighten out my situation with Laguna were fired!!! I made myself a promise that I would make sure that everywoodworker here in my part of Appalachia would hear about how Laguna treated me and would stay away from your product. I keep on seeing your advertisements in the magazine and am amazed more people didn't take the time to hammer you with complaints. In hind sight I realize two things. #1 you are paying the magazines advertising dollars and #2 Laguna always ignored its dissatified customers because to do otherwise would be an addmittance of its failed and devious bussiness practices. Lo & Behold, this forum bothers you? this is called Freedom of Speech! and its about time you and yours are called to task for taking the money and running the way you do. My generation of Americans had a name for this and its called "PayBack" and your time has come! You all should be ashamed of what you have done-bufun
Looks like your arrogant posting got a reaction:
lagunasucks.com.
Congratulations.
Laguna Tools would do FWW and the public a favor if they did not advertise in the magazine.
As an owner of a Laguna machine, a long time subscriber to FWW, and a long time participant at Knots, I would like to make these comments:1) I appreciate your willingness to step up and offer a comment in this thread. 2) I have met and talked with Torben at two different woodworking shows. He was terrific.3) After those conversations, and a discussion with Mark Duginske seeking his recommendations, I bought one of your 16" bandsaws. 4) I had some minor problems with it, and was appalled with the snotty, arrogant people I spoke with in CS. The general tone was that I was stupid and the problems were of my own making. Duginske finally was the one who walked me through the parts I needed and what I had to do to get the machine to function properly.5) In most businesses, the CEO sets the tone and establishes the culture of the organization. I was mystified how Torben, a person who is smart, shrewd, knowledgeable, and helpful -- could create a customer service organization that seems so antithetical to the values and personality I perceived him to have.6) I never knew you were a principal in the business; but reading your response here to JustJames has been illuminating. 7) I certainly understand why you would prefer to keep communications with dissatisfied customers private. But you seem to forget that these internet forums have created a whole new reality for businesses such as yours. Each of us can now share our problems and complaints among a very large community of machine-buying woodworkers. You may not like it, but it has made many of us more discerning buyers -- no longer dependent solely on advertising, magazine reviews, and advice from our immediate acquaintances.8) Everybody around here points to Lee Valley as the paragon of customer service, and they are about as good as it is possible to be. Moreover, as this word has been passed around over the past couple of years in this and other woodworking forums, I would guess they have seen a substantial increase in sales. 9) So rather than offer threats or exert pressure on Taunton, I would urge you to take advantage of the "new reality" -- as Lee Valley has -- and clean-up you own organization. Then in a year or two, all of us around here will be talking about what a remarkable turn-around there has been at Laguna.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
You are absolutely right. I am a part of a internet message board on another subject and regularly people post about someone they had good dealings with. The majority are very positive. What I find interesting is that I am now in a position of influence to direct people to work or not work for a particular company. One company that comes is a company I worked for after the company I was working for bought them and destroyed what was there for about 90 years and then had to sell the company again. Many of the original workers have now returned after being away because of the idiots in the other company. But the other company is trying to hire people I have influence over. Of course you can imagine what I tell them.
Fellow forum folks:I submit that most of the satisfied Laguna customers I know are happily using their tools right now instead of fanning the flames of defamation and disinformation on this forum.I'm sure that James has a legitimate complaint and regrettably was not satisfied. I believe that the Helshoj's have a high level of interest in handling such problems in an honorable fashion and will address customer service problems in their company directly when they are properly made aware. Like many companies, perhaps they have been challenged by employees who failed to meet expectations and cost valuable customer relationships. In the spirit of continual improvement, they continue to pursue quality in customer service with the HELP of the customer.I purchased a Robland X-31 from LT over a decade ago and used it with great success. Recently I upgraded it to a Knapp Signature Series that is my shop's pride. It works flawlessly alongside my 10 year old LT16 bandsaw, drum sander, sliding tables and other Laguna tools and accessories. The company provided excellent sales, service and support whenever I requested it. Shipping across the country was always flawless. Although some hurdles existed concerning the manuals provided by the manufacturer, I found excellent support from LT and their customer base. Even though designed for the experienced professional in a small shop, even a beginner can thrive with these tools.(Caveat emptor: There are numerous challenges to acquiring and using specialty equipment from ANY foreign country. This warrants further detail in another venue. Kudos to importers and customers who can make it work successfully at all, much less the first time. Anyone who has lived in those places understands what I mean.)I have had occasion to speak with a number of Laguna Tools customers who are confirmed evangelists and keep their productive LT shops in superb operating condition. After mentioning this thread to a couple of them and comparing our LT experience, I was met with shrugged shoulders. They didn't see a need to reply. After the excellent treatment I have always received from Torben, Catherine and their crew, however, I could not stand by.Anyone engaging here in the acts of 'forum terrorism' should challenge themselves: start your own company importing expensive tools from uncompromising, unyielding overseas manufacturers, stay in business for a couple of decades, don't have one single problem, and then write a book. I'll read it. Meanwhile, I'm not so interested in reading a bunch of irresponsible flaming. If you're dissatisfied, take care of your business in a honorable way. If you're not involved, then remain so. This is much more embarrassing to you than to Laguna Tools. Using the internet to promulgate libel and slander is irresponsible and willfully destructive.Finally: Carl Knapp is one of the most helpful woodworking experts you could ever hope to talk to and he willingly volunteers his knowledge to all comers. Picking apart a conversation in order to discredit him is a selfish act of disrespect. He doesn't deserve that. If you feel ashamed, that's why. If you don't, you should.
Jeff, I am sure that you have been satisfied with laguna. The thing is many people have stepped up and told about problems with laguna. I do not have any experience with laguna,but I have lots of customer service experience. The theme that I see in these reports is that laguna has not created a culture of service in which front line people are allowed to resolve problems.The only people who are reporting success with laguna are people who eventually got to the owners for help.Can you imagine having this conversation "Excuse me ,Mr. Ford my new Taurus makes a whistling noise at 70mph and the dealer has not or cannot provide an owners manual."Sure if Mr.Ford takes care of you he's a great guy but where does that leave his people and customers. I tell my people to take care of customers, if they need to do something for a customer that requires my approval then I tell them to get it.Then take care of their income source. If I have to deal with the customer for them then they have not only failed but they have taught the customer that they cant help them. If the customer needs anything else including future purchases they go to someone who can help them.
In the words of one of our recent presidents: I feel your pain. I have many years experience teaching customer alignment to individuals who do not recognize that they even have customers. Some never get it.I also work to improve my skills with customer service representatives. With a cool clear head and a respectable demeanor, I communicate my needs and generally achieve my reasonable goals. I thank them when they help. I follow up the chain of command if I'm not satisfied. I believe that good customer alignment is only achieved on a 2 way street. I have watched in shock as fellow customers attempt to gain ground with the CS rep by whining, complaining, yelling and casting dispersions on everything from the company's management to the rep's genealogy. Good luck with that approach!LT is not FOMOCO. They don't manufacture the Knapps and Roblands, they import and distribute them to those who desire higher quality than is domestically available. In recent years, LT has worked hard to bring customer desires to the attention of the manufacturer. In typical Austrian fashion, customer alignment is a difficult concept at best. They're very good at what they do, but not inclined to change their ways. Even so, LT's quest for quality and their pioneering bandsaw improvements have raised the bar for the whole market. (I know: they sell much better ones now than what I bought 10 years ago.)Read Charlie B's take on acquiring quality Euro-tools in the responding 'good support' thread, then take a look at his extensive web postings. I have subscribed to the Yahoo x-31 group for years and have greatly benefited from his involvement. (Check out how he's helping with James' problem.) In spite of your expectations of the importer, you're buying an expensive kt and a way of life, not a TV.I don't make any money defending the honor of Laguna Tools, but I do admire their efforts in the face of monumental tasks. Consider the problems with shipping alone, much less volatility in the currency exchange, or dealing with a dent on a 3000#, $20,000 machine after it arrives from Europe, running a warehouse, maintaining inventory, marketing a foreign product in the US and you haven't even scratched the surface. I am convinced that they have helped me come into ownership of the finest machines available on the planet for my purposes, and I couldn't have done it without them. Anybody who has had to get a job done in a foreign country knows the value of a good expediter., Just like acquiring European exotic cars and motorcycles, buying a Knapp has never been like buying a 'turn-key' Ford Taurus at your neighborhood dealer. Thanks to LT, it has gotten much easier over the last 20 years, though. You have just entered a whole new world of business when you leave the comfort of America. Not everybody on the planet cares how many petite marshmallows you get in your cocoa. You're buying a high-end commercial quality tool with features unavailable anywhere else. It's not easy. If you want a Chinese Grizzly or "built-to-our-specifications-overseas" Delta, go get one. They've got plenty. Let's use this forum to help, not flame each other. It's much easier to gripe and criicize, but that only creates ill will. Is there room for improvement between us and LT? You bet. We know it and they know it. They're working on their end. Let's take positive steps towards a 2 way street and quit setting roadside bombs for everybody else. Most of us here know better.Thanks John Renzetti!Jeff
Jeff,
The problem with your argument is that numerous other importers don't have the customer service problems LT apparently has. Blaming problems on what the manufacturer supplied or didn't isn't enough. Other importers prepare manuals and do other things that take care of the American customer.
No matter how nice the owners are, that doesn't mean they know how to ensure good customer service -- even if they are well intentioned.
IMHO,
Alan - planesaw
Hey Jeff, bad logic.Buy the best and get the worst service. I dont think so. As far as your import car analogy goes ,not. People who buy High end imports want high end service.I have dealt with them.
chopperpilotjeff, nobody is flaming anybody but its definitely hot in the kitchen. These folks do not respond to the gaping awe concerning the machines they have sold to some of us, I have talked to thier reps and yes I have talked to the family aka torbens little brother, when I read him my list of complaints (see # 5 & #15) he told me he didnt want to do bussiness with me. I gently reminded him that he already was. The last one was a expatriated Brit that after hearing my list, asked if I wanted to buy another machine. Laguna just don't get it. What you dont get is that any company worth its salt backs its product 100% If you have 1,000 satisfied customers and 1.001 isn't happy and the complaint is reasonable, you take IMMEDIATE ACTION to satisfy said customer. JustJames was left hanging in the wind for a year. I'd be curious if you were treated the same as he what you response would be. I have not read anything on this forum that would in my opinion be considered mean spirited and or demeaning. What we have here is the ability(finally) for some of us who have been extremely frustrated by the lack of responsible behavior by laguna to air our grievences.-bufun
chopperpilot, youre in the air. time to come on the ground, do you think this kind of response is a function of hobbyist woodworkers who have a disposible trust fund??, bored with lots of time on thier hands to partake of malicous internet gossip??. This is born of frustration on the behalf of lot of us that have tried in vain to remedy thier problems with Laguna to no avail. If it wasn't for forums like this there would be no checks and balances for dealing with manufacturers who do not respond to complaints from dissatisfied workers. and finally i humped a prc-25 with a react plt. outside Danang 1971-i know how important communications has to be. This bunch has shut down any time they have to deal with problems from a lot of us.-bufun
hi All, I wasn't going to reply here because I try to stay away from firefights, but I have to agree with Jeff about Carl Knapp. I've known Carl since his days at Minimax and now with Laguna. I've never heard one bad thing said about him, unit now. Everyone I've ever talked to that has dealt with Carl has always had good things to say about him.
Catherine, Torben's wife, has taken some hits here because of her reply. Email is a lousy way to communicate. I got to know Catherine a few years ago when she organized a magazine drive to send Woodworking magazines to their customers who were serving in Iraq. Since next year I'll be on the receiving end of those magazines I got to know her during the time I was shipping the magazines (slipped in a couple of Felder catalogs and hats also). I don't find her nor Torben to be as depicted here. I bought an LT16 bandsaw from them a few years ago and it performed as advertised. Quick delivery and any questions I had were answered by the sales rep.
I hope James gets his problems taken care of and glad Charlie B is in the picture. I may have misinterpreted or misunderstood part of what James was saying, but did you look at the X31 or any of the others before buying it. Also the guys from the X-31 group on yahoo that have just posted here are for real and have been posters over there for awhile.
Looks like there's a number of Vietnam and other vets here. That's good. And Befun, if I put any rockets from my Cobra gunship too close to you, I apologize. :) Welcome home, bro.
take care, John Renzetti (CW5, still in, but just flying airplanes)
I’m sure you do not work in a customer service type business. I DO NOT <!----><!---->CARE<!----> about the problems they have with their manufacturers, that is what their job is, protect the one who pay the bills, you know the customers.
<!----><!----> <!---->
This is not flaming, this how its’ done in <!----><!---->America<!----><!---->, (thank God too). Bad service equals no business. I’m sure LT competitors are loving this thread and power to them.
A few things:1. I don't own a Laguna tool, though I have considered purchasing their BS.2. At a certain level, any type of tool is based on a few concepts: in other words, a TS is a circular blade, trunion mounts; a BS employs tires and guides, etc.3. Their are basically three level of tools- entry level for the beginner or those on tight budgets or intending to use it occasionally; mid-level for serious amateurs and pros and premium level for production shops and pros who intend to work a tool hard or exploit advanced capabilities.4. For a tool to command a premium price it must be either a) rugged, long lasting and able to with stand hard, frequent sometimes punishing use or b) offer advanced capabilities that justify the price (sliders, for example). A final requirement for a premium tool is good parts and service since, if a production shop is buying the rig, it needs to know that it can be fixed on very short notice, because down time = lost revenue.I can see why a production shop might want a European sliding TS, particularly if they work with a good deal of sheet goods or stock that can be handled easily this way. This can cut production time, and less time means more money. Probably there are things on some of the premium BS that justify their high prices.As far as Laguna goes, it is hard to see how they can be pitched as a premium tool for the pro market if they cannot be reliably serviced, and if parts are such a problem. Even a well made machine that arrives in perfect condition will break at some point. If parts or help are difficult to obtain, we are looking at a 750 lb (sorry, 340 kg) paperweight.I don't buy the argument that European firms don't do CS the way Americans expect. You can't play in the US sandbox if you don't match the other firms (American, Canadian, Japanese, Taiwanese, etc) CS. Ask Pugeot.GlauconIf you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Edited 9/11/2006 7:11 am ET by Glaucon
WOW! You have successfully blown yourself up! Talk about how to destroy a business, you could write a book, you may need to now. Not much iron movin’ out the door these days I bet.
<!----><!----> <!---->
My thought is that your socialist European approach to business has caught up with you, too bad. Well, maybe the guys at Steel City Tools could pick up your line and do a much better job representing it.
<!----> <!---->
Just the observation of a long time sales professional.
It is my hope that posting unsolved Laguna problems in the "light of day" will cause the problem to be solved. When the sun shines, heat is soon to follow....
When good money is sent to a company and the item paid for arrives in nonworking condition, is shipped with missing parts, with poor quality control, and a shallow depth of repair/replacement parts, the company had better show in the light of day that they solved the problems!
I've always liked the saying:
"People change, not because the see the light, but because they feel the heat."
Bill
Edited 9/9/2006 11:13 pm ET by BilljustBill
"We do not believe that public forums are the place to resolve issues and would have preferred to keep the communication private and professional."
I was really pushing to get a brand new 18/20 inch band saw from Laguna. I sent in about three requests for information of which no materials were recieved. I can deal with this. I was just about to call and see what happened and if nothing happened then that would be that, but from the sounds of it why waste my time yet again.
Like I said, if a company has a bad record of customer service I can deal with that and not give them my business, but the quote above is riddiculus and should have never been posted. Amazon.com has their own forum right there! It is one of the reasons that I shop there and frequent it. You should not only be ashamed, but embarassed by this "reply." Did this customer not try to reasonobly solve this problem? Did he not represent the situation in the Knots? If you had handled yourself with the same composure that this person did would you and he be in this situation now?
All that I can say that is certain is that I will not be purchasing one of your tools and from the sounds of it not many others will not as well. Its unfortunet because the tools that you produce seem to be rated rather highly.
Sincerely,
Nick
Torben and Catherine Helshoj,
<!----><!----> <!---->
I’m glad that you responded to this despite the fact that it seems that you can never win with a forum like this; some people are going to complain no matter what you do.
<!----> <!---->
I have already ordered my TSS saw and I’m confident that the saw will be delivered as promised.
<!----> <!---->
Naturally, I will report out to this group if my faith in Laguna was justified or not. Let’s hope that it was…
<!----> <!---->
Kind Regards,
<!----> <!---->
Frank
festool4, Iam very happy that you have had a positive experience with laguna. However, as you may have noticed many of us have not! This is a case of freedom of speech and to make it look like a contest with your comment, "You can never win on a forum like this", is erroneous and misleading. You and two others are the only ones out of 123 postings that have had a positive experience with Laguna. If it was not for forums of this nature lagunas lack of quality control, duplicitous bussiness practices(see my postings#'s 5,15 & others)and lack of cutomer support would run unchecked, but in the interest of fair play and concern for your concern for the feelings of the laguna owners. why don't you contact others such as your self who have had positive experiences with laguna and post thier comments on this site?? I will happily wait for your postings-GoodWorkings-bufun
Actually, I have only ordered a TSS saw. Time will tell if my experience with Laguna will be a good one or not. Am I taking a risk considering the issues that you guys are experiencing? No doubt about it.
<!----><!----> <!---->
Some of you are claiming freedom of speech, but in my opinion, you’re actually repressing it. Anyone who comes to this forum claiming to have a positive experience with Laguna is being attacked or called a “Plant.” People tend to avoid conflict and when they read how others are attacked, they are going to avoid saying anything at all.
<!----> <!---->
You have to understand that just because someone has had a positive experience with a company doesn’t negate the fact that you didn’t. It is rather obvious to me that Laguna has some major issues to resolve: One is they need to stop delivering equipment with the wrong or missing parts. This seems to happen a majority of the time. Secondly, they need to resolve these issues with their existing customers.
<!----> <!---->
I like to remain positive, but I would be willing to bet that my saw will arrive with missing parts, but at the same time I confident they will eventually get the right parts to me. If they don’t, they will be hearing from me, over and over and over again, until I get the service that I need. I will speed-dial their customer service department if I have to. I can be very persistent with I want something.
<!----> <!---->
Ok, so why did I purchase a TSS saw when there are so many other choices out there? Well, the fact is there really weren’t that many choices for me. I wanted the following features: A riving knife, a factory sliding table, and being able to use standard American blades. (I’m not that impressed with aftermarket sliders especially if you have to move the saw from time to time). Here are some of the saws that I looked at:
<!----> <!---->
Powermatic – a great saw, but no factory sliding table.
<!----> <!---->
SawStop – also a very nice saw, but no factory sliding table.
<!----> <!---->
<!----><!----><!---->Steel<!----> <!---->City<!----><!---->, Delta, General and many others - no riving knife or sliding table.
<!----> <!---->
Grizzly – they have a European style saw, but the customer service on these saws sounds worse than what you are going through. Their standard American style saws apparently are a completely different story—people seem to love them (once again, no factory slider).
<!----> <!---->
Hammer – a very high quality product but they seem to nickel and dime you to death. You want to be able to use dado blades, that is extra. You want to rip to 49 inches, that is extra. You want micro adjust on the rip fence, that is extra. You want to use standard American blades—too bad. Oh, and don’t get in a hurry. Delivery time is between three to four months. Finally, the price difference between a Hammer and Laguna will practically purchase any of the saws on top of this list.
<!----> <!---->
So long story-short. I’m continuing with my purchase—wish me luck. It sounds like I many need it. :o)
Festool4,
I think you have completely misunderstood the process that has taken place here. Accusing those who have expressed themselves as "supressing" freedom of speech is absurd. If I disagree with you and in that disagreement express my belief that you are defending a company with no good reason and I call you a "plant," that in no way prevents you from fully expressing your opinion of my opinion.
That's how this works. In fact the annonymity of the Net prevents any real intimidation and allows much more freedom of expression than otherwise.
The information posted in this thread has been very helpful to others regarding the very real issues of customer service with Laguna.
It surprises me that you are willing to do business with a company from whom you anticipate missing parts and with whom you are prepared to do phone battle. Good luck with that! Anyone forced into that position is the loser.
Now, let me play the role of "plant" for a company whom I believe you have misrepresented with regard to their sales practice - Hammer.
I do not agree that they "nickel and dime you to death." They have prices for every piece of equipment. You can buy a table saw at the "advertised price" with the equipment listed as included. You can also buy "accessory" equipment for the machine.
I will agree that accessory equipment is often needed for basic operations and should be included in the main "package." An equally valid argument from Hammer is that they sell to knowledgeable workers and they adhere to the philosophy that each is capable of configuring their purchase to their needs, without getting equipment superfluous to their operation.
I recently evaluated a number of combo machines, and I will admit that when I attempted to put together the Hammer package that I wanted, I began to get a bit put off by the necessity of pulling together information from all over the catalog.
Well, I called the salesman, said I had a price for another machine that came "complete," no need to outfit it with all the items that were "accessories" in the Hammer catalog. I told him I wanted an all-inclusive price and did not want any surprises later regarding missing, necessary "accessories."
He said, "No problem, tell me how you want the machine configured." I did. He had a written price quote in seconds (emailed it to me while we talked). It was significantly below the price of the other guys. We concluded the deal on the spot. He has remained in touch with me during this waiting period as the machine is being readied and shipped from Austria. He has kept me advised of the progress and has assured me that he and tech support are ready to help during arrival and any time after I receive the equipment.
Rich
Edited 1/12/2007 12:55 pm ET by Rich14
In my opinion, if Hammer made two simple changes they would make a lot more sales: 1) Offer a general purpose saw package that included a 49” rip fence and the dado blade prep package.
2) Stock saws here in the states so the customer doesn’t have to wait 3 or 4 months to get them. Perhaps even make it possible to customize them here in the states.
<!----><!----> <!---->
Is Hammer completely off my future shopping list? Certainly not… Their jointer / planner package looks like the best deal on the market.
Number 1 sounds like it could happen (but prolly won't). Number 2, is very unlikely, EVER. Yes, the jointer/planer is a great deal. Rich
That is their choice, of course. If <!----><!----><!---->Toyota<!----><!----> can assemble the entire vehicle here and keep the quality up, Hammer could at least set up the saw here.
Well, in response to this whole mess of posts.I was ready to order both the TSS and an 18" bandsaw from Laguna about 8 months ago. Due to other forums (sawmill, etc) I decided to wait on my purchases since the posts seems to refer negatively upon Laguna.Website after website seems to have too many negative experiences with Laguna. For my money, I will go with a better CS department. We are buying a new house now, so my purchases have been delayed. But you can bet I'm not shopping anything Laguna.I know there are some happy Laguna buyers, but the dissatisfied ones outweigh the positives.I'm looking for a BS and a new TS. You can bet my money is going toward the MM16 and either a Sawstop or a MM/Felder slider.Woodworking is one of the pristine examples of "you get what you pay for".This whole discussion is similar to many others concerning the lack of customer service at Laguna.A word to Laguna..........Fix your problems. Air the complaints and the resolutions on-line. Hiding the problems makes you a poor company. Why do you fear on-line forums to show that your customer service is second-to-none?
Edited 1/15/2007 11:29 am ET by amazon
MM16 is a great choice. The Felder/Hammer is in a completely different class compaired to the Sawstop. If you can afford it, go with the Hammer. If you go with the Sawstop, I would add the Jessem slider.
http://www.jessem.com/mast_r_slide.htm
I would also check out Popular Woodworking, January 2007. They talk about some issues they found with the Sawstop.
Festool4
Overall, I find it truely amazing that Laguna didn't end this thread on a positive note. It would be a world of difference if the same Laguna reps/owners could sum up the responses with a solid "we'll get it taken take of". Yet, we have nothing. I don't know how this company continues its business. How on earth they say, "Keep this off the forums" is beyond me.That's more than a red flag.I encourage the Laguna reps/owners to respond. Because, simply, your company is dying in customer support, and you have nothing to say.
Festool4,
It sounds like you've gone through the same exact process I've gone through in your thinking and research to obtain ####quality saw with a sliding table. I went round and round with Felder Group for months in my hopes to purchase a saw from their Hammer line. In the end I decided that the cost of their unit,even though it is of high quality,was just to far outside of what I perceived as a good value. I know that they have been trying to tap into the small professional woodworker shop and serious hobbyist market. I don't think they 're quite there yet, at least not in my opinion. I too have considered purchasing the TSS for the same reasons you listed. I had money down on a unit but canceled after reading so much negative about their service. I'd appreciate if you'd let me know how your experience goes with your TSS. For know I have decided to brake down my panels with either the Eurekazone or Festool system and square up smaller panels with the Jessem slider attachment. I realize that the Jessem slider is pretty much a light duty slider and that's OK with me as I'm not into any kind of production. I'm only making a hand full of pieces a year, so hopefully this will work for me for now, without forking out huge amounts of cash for a real sliding, panel scoring saw. Good Luck and keep my posted. Dan
Proof positive: I had my first discussion with our local Mini Max rep today. I guess he also sells Laguna which would explain his lack of response when I told him I would be buying no Laguna products due to their customer service issues. If I'm gonna buy a bandsaw to last me for life, then I'll be needing to call someone back every few years as issues arise. Having heard mostly good things about Mini Max, Agazzani, and Bridgewood's CS - Laguna is out. I think the new MM16 is gonna be in.
And again, to those considering this thread as damaging gossip, know that this thread was far from the first I'd heard of folk's first hand complaints - just poke around on the net & there's plenty to find. It's a new age. Companies that don't take care of their own better have something else mighty attractive to compensate or risk becoming dinosours. We'll remember your pretty advertisements & paint jobs.
well said and enough said!
MM16 is the way to go... unless of course, you can afford a MM20...
Festool4
Dan
<!----><!----> <!---->
I will let you know how it works out. My saw should arrive late this week or early next week. I love my Festool saw—it cuts such a pretty edge. Also I discovered that Forrest will sharpen Festool blades. I will let you know how that works out as well.
<!----> <!---->
I have taken a serious look at the Jessem slides, but it is a little small, doesn't have a serious holddown, and you have to cut the main rails on your saw.
<!----> <!---->
Of course, should I ever win the lottery, I will have a shop full of Hammer products, shy of the bandsaw, of course. I think MiniMax is the only way to go there. If you are in love with Laguna’s guides and resaw blades. No problem, they work flawlessly on a MiniMax.
<!----> <!---->
Have a good day,
<!----> <!---->
Frank
I was looking at a Laguna TSS.
I went to Felder because the Laguna sales guy was incapable of addressing my questions about simple things such as bearings in the slider: size quantity etc. I asked him to look at a tech spec sheet or manual, he said there were none in the USA, so I asked him to ask a tech service guy and he said there were none in the USA.OK Great.
So I called Felder and asked the Felder guy the same questions. He took his phone to a parts storage area grabbed a micrometer and a tech manual and answered all my questions pronto. The laguna people were incapable of speaking to anything that wasn't in the glossy brochures - which is bloody little. The Felder people had technical and parts and initiative. The decision suddenly was obvious.
I bought a Laguna 18 and had nothing but good experience. They have called me several times since the machine was delivered, once right after delivery, again in a month, and again in 6 months, to see if everything was working as expected. I have resawn 15" hard maple and 12" beech to 1/8", using their carbide blade and was very pleased. Only need light cleaning up and thickness was excellent throughout.
Larry
I don't usually have time for this type of comment... but your good service probably came after they got dragged over the coals on several WW forums they do monitor. I have a feeling they have changed direction in the last year as you sometimes have to get hit in the face with a 2 x 4 before you get your head of of your *ss and start caring about the customer after the sale.
With IWF coming up here in Atlanta in August... I will drop by their booth to see them. I expect to find a new attitude as I have a feeling that the bad press they brought upon themselves was taken to heart and they wanted to stay afloat in a highly competitive market. There was really never a question about their product other than minor quirks you find with any machinery line all the way to the top.
Enjoy your saw as it's a good one indeed..
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 6/15/2008 11:44 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Yes, and I think they might have gotten their "head where the sun doesn't shine" when the dollar kept moving in down relative to the Euro, and they suddenly found themselves in a cost crunch (mine came from Italy). The problem with cost cutting is you never know when you've gone too far and driven the customers away. It doesn't make any difference what your costs are when you're not selling anything.
Larry
Yep... kind of like one of those "King of the Mountain" deals... you rule the top and forget how you got there.. and others are always trying to push you off because they want to be the "king". Getting there is one thing.. staying there is another day and another story.
Regards...
Sarge..
James, pure reason says that there must be some resolution in hand. We who both care and face similar needs are eager to know. If it is a private settlement then just a comment of things are working out or I will get it settled or no response yet would suffice. To steal a phrase of a good guy Mr.L. Thanks Paddy the concerned. Email if you must.
Edited 9/29/2006 11:43 pm ET by PADDYDAHAT
Currently working with LT to resolve the issues to our mutual satisfaction and will post the final outcome as soon as things are finalized. Thanks
I have a LT18 for a couple of years and have not had any trouble with it but I am a hobbiest and don't get a lot of time to be in the shop. What kind of problems have you all had with Laguna's bandsaws? Does it show up after many hours on the machine or only when doing "tricky" or very fine cuts?
KDM
Kenneth Duke Masters
The Bill of Rights December 15 1791 NRA Endowment Member
LEAA Life Member
CRPA Member
dukeone, this is bufun, check out my postings on my lt-18, #5  this topic.
Let's hear it for FWW letting free speech take place on this forum. They could easily do what I've seen on other forums and "weenie out!"
This technology is a great equalizer in the marketplace in overcoming slick marketing and high pressure salespeople hiding behind as Clark Howard calls it the "No Customer Service Department."
Thanks Knots and FWW.
Don't be surprised if Taunton receives complaints from Laguna regarding advertising in FWW while Knots carries threads such as this.
A customer gets no service in over a year, airs his complaints, then gets chastised by the salesman that his actions upset the owner?! Unbelievable!
That Laguna is a poorly-run business has clearly been indicated by the many posts here. But the nature of the post by their CEO strongly reinforces that impression. It was hostile, defensive, arrogant, invoked patently lame excuses and blamed the customer.
How stupid!
Rich
Edited 9/8/2006 4:37 pm ET by Rich14
Well, I'm wondering if Laguna advertises in the publications of the provider of this forum. I'm also wondering if our fellow poster Catherine Helshoj might contact said publication's advertisers concerning some negative statements regarding her company. Surely in this fine land of free speech and open exchange, this conflict of interest will be tolerated for what it is - free and open exchange in the marketplace.
So, am I wrong for betting this thread vanishes over the weekend - gone by Monday AM? I know internet betting is illegal, but does anyone wish to place a wager?
Dave S
So, am I wrong for betting this thread vanishes over the weekend
Acornw,
I sincerely hope you are wrong. My regard for this forum would be irreparably damaged if I returned on Monday to find no trace of this thread.Rennie
A man is a fool if he drinks before he reaches the age of 50, and a fool if he doesn't afterward. Frank Lloyd Wright
Once I made a post on Beaver Pond concerning Georgia Public Television dropping all of the woodworking shows (American Woodshop, Woodright's Shop, Router Workshop) except Norm in favor of "The Handy Mam."
The monitor yanked the posting.
This is a real test of FWW to see if it is really a publication by woodworkers for woodworkers. My quess is that they will not censure this thread because it is a free market discussion among woodworkers. That's the only customer they have.
My impressions of Laguna were formed in an attempt to buy a bandsaw from them for over a year and being sickened by their pushy salespeople who constantly put down all the other competitive saws.
FWW has done more than enough to rate them highest in every head to head bandsaw comparison. In think they were in honest in their conclusions but the comparison didn't cover customer service for the poor soul who gets less than what they'd paid for (no manuel, poorly tuned, missing parts saw). First of all the saw that is shipped should not need customer service. If you are unlucky enough to need them they should bend over backward to help, because that is their only job.
Maybe a qualified woodworker/ quality control professional should do a study of customer service and send the study to FWW for publication.
Hi James/people
I live in the Netherlands and own a Knapp KFS and a Robland xsd310 planer,I have only praise for Robland when it comes to service,I have had pretty heated discussions with the dutch importer over both machines ,one where the importer refused to believe that Knapp has a two year warranty,I phoned robland and they put it right,within 15 minutes the importer was on the line and the repair was organised.So it goes to show most of these importers want your cash but when it comes to following up with a bit of service you can go and take a bath in something brown.I wonder how long it will be before laguna tries to litigate for defamation
A friend of our family invested $40K in a partnership in a cabinet shop in 1964 and recently sold his partnership interest for something in the neighborhood of $10 million. To say that they grew the business and recapitalized several times over in that 40 year period would be an understatement.
I would have loved to have seen that man's reaction if some LT salesman had sold them some equipment and then fed them some of the BS lines that Jeff the Chopper Pilot put out. I think the ones about, "You're leaving the comfort of the USA now so it's normal that you have to go to some web site support group/ fan club and learn how to put the thing togther and what parts you need;" and "You need to feel sorry for LT and sort of sympathize with them because what they do to make money is so difficult and you probably can't even understand it anyway,..." Yeah, I would have loved to see what this very successful large cabinet shop operator would have said to that line of thinking,...it would have been humorous, I can tell you that,...
But what really would've caused a minor nuclear explosion would have been if they thought they bought one thing and rec'd something else, as Just James is claiming, and then the owners of the company had said "we need to see your claims in writing." They would've gotten it in writing but the State Attorney General would've gotten it as well. As far as I know, the State Attorney Generals in all 50 states are very interested in "bait and switch" in commercial activities. They "make their bones" off of that stuff,... Just a thought,...
I wonder if Jeff the Chopper Pilot knows Jay the Jet Plane? Really nice of him to come on this forum and tell us not only what his opinion was but how he's involved in customer service too! and how we should act and think and express our own opinions.
Ed, retired chopper pilot
Things certainly have gotten quiet, the calm before the storm??-bufun
<<...."the calm before the storm??">>I doubt it; I think the issue just played itself out. But I am heartened to see Taunton did not see fit to squelch this thread, as some (including me) suspected they would.Things are considerably tamer around here now than they were 3-4 years ago.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
This is for all to read, but I don't know how to send to "all". I'm reluctant to post this because of all the accusations flying around, but here goes.I have an LT 16 I got about 6 years ago at a woodworking show in Chicago. Originally, I ordered their base model, but when I got it, I returned it because it had a very rough finish on the table, and there were some other issues as well. I can't remember them now, of course. Bottom line, I upgraded to the LT 16. They picked up the other saw in a timely fashion and the new one seemed to be just fine. They also sent me a set of ceramic guides at no charge and (I think) another blade because I complained about the first saw.Ironically, the day after I read the thread about customer service problems with Laguna, my saw wouldn't start. Some sort of electrical problem, I assumed. I anxiously called their customer service and spoke with Juan, one of their tech support reps. He walked me through the problem and determined it was a bad coil that is supposed to activate the "on" switch. He ordered a new coil, which I received about a week later and it did fix the problem.I will say that I've never been completely happy with the saw's performance. It's okay, but not really worth the $1700.00 or so I paid 6 years ago. The ceramic guides are not very good and the power doesn't seem to be there, especially for a supposed 3 hp. I had gotten it primarily for resawing and it doesn't handle wide boards very well- bogs down easily.At one time, I considered trading up to a 20" model and had worked out a deal with their rep to get the new saw with a carbide blade. However, the salesman subsequently said I had misunderstood and the carbide blade was not part of the deal. At least that's how I remember it. Getting older, you know. Consequently, I never bought the bigger saw.All in all, I haven't been particularly satisfied with the performance of this saw and would probably not buy another one without a compelling reason. However, my recent (last week) experience with tech support has been very positive. At least Juan seems to be on the ball. He solved my problem quickly and was very courteous and professional in his demeanor.
wooddood, I bought a LT-18 fron laguna 9yrs ago. what they did was unload a ssaggitarius manufactured bandsaw on me after they had switched manufacturers. I bought at that time for re-saw because I thought that re-saw capability would allow me to keep my overhead down by scrounging my own wood. (see post 5 & 15). anyhow I felt a 3hp drive should be able to handle anything. The best thing that happened to me was timberwolf blades since they tension visually, Iam looking at carter guides at this time because laguna guides are so mickey mouse. Caretr will hopefully enable me to avoid having to change guides every time I go from3/16" to 1". Your comment about the horse power on your saw rings true with me, however Iam in the process of re-sawing white oak for a stereo cabinet today and have giving much thought to a combination of embracing single point fences and another workers concept of re-sawing. I have studied blade drifts and adjustable fences and have fabricated after market tables and said fences, but today will be a real test concerning the power of my tool. I feel that re-sawing is an art that depends a lot on the operator just as much as sharpening does on the worker. So Iam looking forward to todays experiment and will let you know how it turns out. I have been very successfull with this saw(after changing to Timberwol blades) with organic or freeform bowes utilizing Lois Venturas lamination concept(Building Beautifull Boxes with the Bandsaw-Popular WoodWorking), some of my glue-ups are 8" thick. Finally, I will bet you dollars to dough-nut that that carbide blade they wanted you to buy was a variable pitch that theyve had instock a while and did not mention that it cant be re-sharpened in the eastern USA, there was one guy in Calif. that did them a 50 bucks a pop. Mine cost me $165.00 and the good folks at laguna that unloaded on me failed to mention the itsy-bitsy resharpening problem. I'll tell you how my re-sawing experience works out after Im finished in the labratory. Nya Ha-Ha! GoodWorkings-the bufun
When you reply, there will be drop-down menu in the "to" box, and you can direct your response to anyone you select, including "all."I can't remember hearing a lot of complaints about the machines sold by Laguna (onbly the customer service). In your case, you should try one of those Timberwolf blades; they do seem to make a difference.I have the same machine you do The guides are passable, but I have been meaning to call somebody selling the Carter guides to see what it would cost to get a replacement set. Everyone around here who has installed them seems to feel they are a cut or two above everything else.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Thanks. I've been using Timberwolf and they do seem to work better. I'll check out the Carter guides.
From 05 forum " This year's ffw tool guide rates them both well. Three bandsaws tied for best overall The Delta 28-248-$1000, The Laguna LT14-$945, and the Powermatic PWBS-14CS-$855. You can buy two or three extra blades for the difference in price. The resaw capcity of the Laguna was 8 5/8. 2 and 3/8 inches more than the powermatic and a couple inches more than the Delta. The Laguna doesn't take a riser block The blade tension psi for the powermatic was 9,500 well below the Laguna and Delta rating of 15,000 psi. The Laguna LT14SE is now available and has a 12 inch resaw capacity. The Lagunas also require a 230v circuit.
The Laguna LT14 was the Reader's Choice award winner too."
FWW 11/3 rated this Laguna the pick of the litter in band saw comparisons. I bought one and haven't had any troubles with it. Some one mentioned the instruction manual. I found this one clear This one was clear and well written. Someone bitched about the low quality motor. This one has a Baldor motor. Isn't that supposed to be a top line motoer?
your posting said "someone bitched about poor motoer quality" -not nice" However Iam very happy you had a positive experience with this company. There are however some of us that have not recieved the same treatment in quality of machinery for our dollars. I wonder if you would be as content with your tool if you experienced what others such as myself have?(#5,#15). Look at it this way, myself and others have been the marketing experiments that eventually led to your purchase of a tool that does what its supposed to do. I have been working wood since I was 15 yrs old at that time the shop I was in consisted of myself and another 15 yr old we were making rustic plaques. We filled orders for every major eastern U.S. city from Baltimore, north up the coast. we shipped to England and France. Iam now 56, I have worked wood fron timber to reidential to historic restoration to high production shop. I know what I'm talking about and yet I still get excited every time I work because the more I do, the more I learn. Iam glad your experience withlaguna was as it should be, I wish myself and others had recieved the same respect for our dollars, GoodWorkings-bufun
Laguna tools is just a poorly run company as was just shown again. Yesterday I received an email ad from Laguna that plainly offered free shipping on several machines as their SEPTEMBER SPECIALS. Today I received an email ad from Laguna retracting their free shipping.
I don't care if they sell a 16 inch bandsaw that will resaw 3 feet, I am glad I bought my bandsaw from another company. Sales people who run down their competition, poor customer relations and now "we made a mistake pricing." The preponderance of unhappy posts here and other forums says it all about Laguna tools.
For me they absolutely took the fun out of buying a new bandsaw. Isn't this supposed to be fun?
JustJames,
I know this is an old discussion, but I had a Laguna experience I might as well add here...
I while back, I made the mistake of giving my name and number to a Laguna rep at a woodworking show. Since then, I get regular, annoying phone calls and e-mails from them pushing hard to make me buy one of their machines. No matter how many times I tell them I already have a band saw and I'm not in the market for a new one, they keep telling me about "amazing deals."
The other day, one of Laguna's reps left a long, long, long sales pitch on my answering machine.
It seems this is unusual in the woodworking world. I have never had another company do this kind of hard sell. Does this technique actually work? I'd think they are losing more people than they are gaining this way!
Edited 11/24/2006 2:04 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
Since you have been getting the calls for some time now, did you think to call their sales or CS departments about this? CS will probably get more done than calling sales but they are just doing their job, really.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I've actually told the person on the phone I was not interested and to stop calling. Likewise with the e-mails.I haven't taken the time to make a complaint to their customer-service department because it doesn't rise above the level of "slightly annoying." Plus, as you said, the reps are just trying to make a living. I can sympathize with them.
Edited 11/24/2006 2:05 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
Wednesday the lower thrust bearing on my Laguna 16" bandsaw broke. With some misgivings, mostly due to the rants about them here, I called their customer service. Within a few minutes they had the part ready to send out to me even though my bansaw is over eight years old. They even had the account information from my original purchase on their computer. Initially the rep tried to talk me into upgrading to their new guides, but they didn't persist when I said I only needed to get back to work ASAP. Not a bad experience at all.
I am honestly glad to hear this. I have had little but snotty, supercilious "tude" from the CS people I have dealt with in the past. I have some issues with my Laguna BS that I just have to deal with, and have been putting it off because of that. Maybe all our carping has had some effect. Do you remember the name of the rep you spoke to? I'll ask for him/her.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Sorry, but I didn't get the guy's name. Maybe you should wait until I actually receive the parts to make sure they sent them. I gave them my credit card number over the phone. I thought 65 bucks was pretty high for a thrust bearing (Euro guide lower assembly) for my LT16HD, but there wasn't a choice and the machine is down.
Next time you need a thrust bearing,which is just a ball or needle bearing,open the yellow pages. Look up Power Transmission, most towns have at least one supplier within driving distance. You will pay less than $10.00 for the same thing.These suppliers sell bearings,pulleys , chain sprockets,drive belts, etc.
mike
But will it fit the Laguna assembly?
Is there a number on the old bearing?
------------------------------------
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer (1891)
No -- it's a kind of hokey thing where the shaft of the assembly simply rotates in a steel sleeve. Reminds me of a babbett and shaft bearing. The machine is Italian (Meber) with a Laguna logo silkscreened on the side of the cabinet.
Sounds like Laguna's the only game in town for you. I would be shocked and amazed if the bearing houses in the yellow pages could help you.------------------------------------
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer (1891)
Take the bearings with you, they'll probably have it in stock.If not I'm sure they can order it . I've done this several times with either standard or metric sized bearings, almost every time they had it in stock.One time they had to order 25mm pillow block bearings for me.They came in two days later.
mike
Ok, so its been a very long time since last I posted, wanted to bring everyone up to date that is still interested.
1. Laguna Tools did send out at their cost, a Tech to repair the blade run out on the table saw portion of the machine.
2. Laguna Tools did send me at no charge all the missing items from the original shipment as well as providing me again at no charge some replacement bushings for the start switch.
After all was said and done, I still did not have confidence in my X31 machine and the ability of Laguna Tools to stand behind their product, since it took over a year to get to this point. I do credit them with at least attempting to resolve the issues.
I have since purchased a new MiniMax CU300 Smart and I have to say I am very pleased with the purchase, the quality of the machine and the follow up service from the folks at MiniMax. It was delivered in fine shape and all the parts were there, it only took a few hours to have the machine up and running.
Finally I hope everyone has a very safe and productive New Year!
James,
It's good to hear that you finally have a machine you have confidence in. I looked at the C300 Smart very closely before deciding on a Hammer (at the end it was a toss-up between those 2 for me). I think the MiniMax is an excellent machine, far better than the X31, and you will have excellent support from the miniMax organization.
Rich
Do you feel that you would have had any satisfaction at all from Laguna had you not first told your story here on Knots?--
Todd
No, like I've tried to explain before it has been over a year of trying via telephone, email and filing complaints with the BBB, and then finally I found this message board. My only intention here was to see if I was alone it this, or did anyone else have the same experience with this company.
There still is the issue with showing the X31 machine on their website with the outdated solid cast iron sliding table. According to the folks at Laguna it is no longer sold with the machine. I still wonder how difficult could it be to post a new photo of the new sliding table, why use the outdated photo. They have twice posted a disclaimer in red text on the X31 page, but it always seems to be removed within a few days.
To me this is like buying a new car and when you go to pick it up, the tires are the small runon spares instead of the fancy rims you thought you were buying, just my opinion.
justjames, only a year?" Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? Laguna does" Glad you got something better-GoodWorkings-bufun
THE ONLY THING I DO NOT UNDERSTAND IN THIS LONG STORY IS-- WHY DID IT TAKE YOU A YEAR TO DETERMINE THAT THE ROBLAND WAS UNSUITABLE FOR YOUR PURPOSE. MOST PEOPLE AFTER A FEW WEEKS WILL CALL THE SELLER AND EXPLAIN THE SAW IS UNSUITABLE FOR THEIR PURPOSE - LOW QUALITY - WHATEVER-, AND THEN RETURN IT. RATHER THAN USE IT FOR A YEAR AND THEN ATTEMPT TO REMEDY THE PROBLEM BY HARRASING THE COMPANY INTO TAKING BACK A MACHINE THAT IS A YEAR OLD . LETS BE FAIR THE MM CU300 IS A MUCH HIGHER QUALITY MACHINE THAN THE ROBLAND AND LAGUNA DID PROVIDE YOU WITH PARTS AND A SERVICE TECH- TRY AND GET MM TO FLY A TECH FROM TEXAS TO YOUR LOCATION FOR FREE. - DAVID
Laguna Tools does not have a return policy. In previous posts I have explained my reasons for choosing to resort to using message boards to find out if I was alone in the service I recieved from this company. As I'm sure everyone has read, there are many people very happy with this company, unfortunately I did not recieve the machine I was lead to believe I was purchasing, nor did I recieve the service I would expect for a purchase of this cost.
THANK YOU FOR THE CLARIFICATION JAMES ,-IAM SURE THE WHOLE ORDEAL WAS NOT PLESANT. ONE THING THAT YOU MIGHT REMEMBER - YOU CAN RETURN A NEW TOOL AFTER A RESONABLE LENGHT OF TIME. I HAD A SIMULAR PURCHASE TO THE ONE YOU MADE GO BAD ALSO WITH ANOTHER MANUFACTURER. I MERELY SENT THEM A REGISTERED LETTER EXPLAINING THE SAW WAS UNSAFE AND DANGEROUS IN ITS PRESENT STATE,- AND BASICALLY THEY NEED TO COME DOWN AND GET IT RIGHT OR I WAS RETURNIG IT TO THEM AT THEIR EXPENSE BECAUSE IT WAS UNSUITABLE FOR THE PURPOSE IT WAS SOLD. HOWEVER, CONVERSLY ,-YOU CAN NOT EXPECT A TOOL MANUFACTURER TO TAKE BACK A TOOL THAT IS A YEAR OLD. SO, WHEN YOU GET YOUR MINIMAX ,-CHECK IT OUT, MAKE SURE IT IS WHAT YOU WANT AND IF NOT RETURN IT IN A RESONABLE PERIOD WHILE YOU STILL HAVE LEVERAGE WITH THAT COMPANY. I THINK PART OF THE PROBLEM AS CONSUMERS IS THAT MANY TIMES WE TEND TO UNDER BUY WOODWORKING EQUIPMENT IN AN ATTEMPT TO SAVE MONEY AND SOMETIMES IT WORKS AND OTHER TIMES IT DOES NOT. WOODWORKING EQUIPMENT IS WHAT IT IS, AND YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR, IAM PRESENTLY ON MY FOURTH TABLESAW- A 10' FORMAT FOUR (HIGH END FELDER) -A GREAT MACHINE, BUT I HAVE BEEN EYE BALLING THE 4 AXIS MARTINS- -IT NEVER SEEMS TO STOP DOES IT. IAM GLAD LAGUNA DID AT LEAST SEND HELP AND PARTS- GOOD LUCK WITH NEW PURCHASE- DAVID
Hi Matthew,
Thanks for providing your name, I was able to find you in our database and I have indicated that you are no longer interested in having Laguna Tools Contact you. This should stop all calls and emails unless you contact us in the future.
In sales it is sometimes a double edge sword, if you call - you are annoying and if you don't call you are ignoring the customer. All I can do is make note when the customer request not to be contacted.
Have a great holiday season.
Larry Drum
Larry,
Hey, I do sympathize with the sales people wanting to do their job, and your tools do seem like good quality.
Matthew,
Thanks for the comments and who know maybe someday Laguna will be able to help with your future woodworking needs.
Sincerely,
Larry Drum
Funny, I get a call from Minimax every few months even though I have purchased a Knapp several years ago.
A couple days ago I tried to log on to the Laguna Forums but was denied entry. They said I was banned until the year 2029. I don't know what that is all about, as I haven't posted there for months.
I'll admit that I am not a fan of some of their products (ceramic blade guides come to mind), however I have praised their HD 16 band saw on many occasions.
I guess if you say anything bad about any of their products they just cut off your access to their BB. I suppose that is one way to deal with dissent. I'm also surprised that this thread is still on Knot's as I'd be willing to wager that 'Cathy' (the boss) has threatened to sue Taunton or at the least pull their ads from FWW.
Keep up the good work Tauton, and thank you for not kowtowing to threats from advertisers.
Hey all. I just signed up & this is my first post.
Just thought you'd all be interested to know that your many discussions have sealed my desicion NOT to buy Laguna. Having saved over a year for the best bandsaw +/- $2K will buy, I had it narrowed to Laguna, Agazzani, Mini Max, and (more recently) Bridgewood. While this thread in nothing close to the first I've heard of Laguna's customer service & sales trouble, it is the last I'll be needing. So those of you who've wondered if your posted frustrations would curb someone's future purchase - here I am. So thanks. Your troubles have spared mine.
i might as well jump in here- let's hope LT's workbenches have improved- ALOT!- in the five years since i bought one. due to various circumstances, it sat virtually unused in a usually heated/ac space for most of its life and i recently started trying to use it again. it's been interesting...
the top is cupped about .125" across the width. i'm guessing it would be much worse if i removed the breadboard ends, but the bolts are so tight- no doubt due to the warpage- that even if i could get them out, there's no way i could put them back in without hogging out the holes and perhaps recutting/remaking/refitting the mortises and floating tenons. not yet sure what i'll do.
the left breadboard end was about .150" proud towards the vise- due to shrinkage across the width of the top- racking the vise in use, so that needed planed off flush.
the tail vise was sloppier than (i had a good analogy, but didn't think Taunton would care for the R-rated reference)- let's just say it's bad, ok? the large finger joints have major gaposis from shrinkage and i'm basically rebuilding the whole assembly.
as far as i can tell, this bench was built with extremely green wood (did i mention i live in western NC- not exactly the driest part of the planet) and if i still lived in colorado, it probably would have completely self-destructed by now.
oh yeah, it took several weeks and two tries for LT to send me a pair of legs that actually fit the top years ago, and a recent email inquiring if they had any interest in salvaging a customer was ignored...
m
"I made me a vow on the moon and stars", Iam glad I helped someone see the light.
GoodWorkings-bufun
I wonder if anyone at Laguna Tools is even aware of this forum and it's abundance of negative feed back regarding thier customer service? This is a BIG forum. Why isn't Laguna here defending themselves? Not aware of us? Or just don't care? either way, bad on them. I've bought a lot of mail order tools and machinery and regularly get calls from them soliciting bandsaws and blade guides and blades and I for one will not be buying anything from them.
They are aware of the forum, and posted even.
They seem to be aware of their customer service reputation, but don't seem to care. I was at a wood supplier. He has a Laguna bandsaw, so I asked him about it and about their customer service.
He tells me he knows the owner, and even then they are kind of iffy on the customer service. It seems they dissociate themselves from responsibility for the products they don't actually make, which seems to be a lot of them.
Before I came across this forum, I consider getting one of their top of the line bandsaws. I enquired and they sent me all kind of info. After I read these posts, I asked 'my' sales guy about customer service, etc.. No response. Every now and then he emails me some sort of deal, and I ask him about customer service and he doesn't reply. I'm sure if I ordered a machine he would acknowledge the email, but I have pretty much written them off as a supplier to me - if they don't even reply to questions, it kind of confirms the whole issue, doesn't it.
Nonetheless, as long as they keep up the full page spreads in FWW and others, people will still buy and as long as their sales don't suffer they won't give a damn about their angry customers, just the new ones.
Check out post 31351.49.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
Laguna did respond---look at message number 49.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled