Anyone here ever attempted laminating wood (any type) to carbon fiber? To Kevlar?
I know that sanding carbon fiber is not recommended, but I’m curious as to the bond one could expect between the two materials. Perhaps (if laid carefully) you could get away w/o too much abrasive action on the carbon fiber.
Thanks
Replies
I have a reference to that in Alf Martensen's Woodworkers Bible. Published in 1979 it mentions carbon fiber and wood combined have been around for 15 years so that would make it around 38 years. Must be doable if they are laminating wood and carbon to make helicopter blades. There are only 2 pages dealing with the subject. Epoxy resin was the adhesive.
Rick
Edited 12/7/2002 7:37:54 PM ET by rsl
rsl - Thanks for the info. I'll have to look for the "Bible" - I'd done some searching w/ Google, but was unable to find any reference to the two materials combined. Except in reference to some research being done on engineered beams - nothing in reference to furniture or ... I don't know, maybe all us (them) baby boomers will need much lighter (and stronger) furniture in the not too distant future. What little I've worked w/ carbon fiber, it's properties have really piqued my interest. Didn't know there were helicopter blades made w/ wood & cf - cool. Would probably be okay for a chair then, I'd guess.
In fact the reference in the book was on making a light weight but strong chair. Have you tried looking for carbon fiber sources and asking them for technical information. You mentioned something about the hazards of sanding. Clearly in the book they had to do some sanding but nothing was mentioned of a hazard. Got any sources of references to that aspect. It did mention that carbon fiber was available in several forms and proportions of carbon to fiber glass with different properties of strength, conductivity, etc so it appears to be useful in many industries. Bible would be a bit of a stretch perhaps but the book was English based and there usually is a different perspective compared to American woodworking books. European techniques seem to br a bit more innovative with regards to techniques and tools. Did a quick search on carbon fiber with google and there seems to be quite a bit of info.
http://www.fibreglast.com/
Rick
Thanks for the link, rsl - I'll bookmark, browse, and hopefully learn something from it.
Yep, the boatbuilding trade is a good resource of info as well. I seem to recall (vaguely) a website showing a fellow building a rowing scull w/ carbon fiber - pretty amazing material, property wise.
I have found kevlar when I have been looking for fiberglass on the web. it uses a two part resin and hardener like fiberglass. just type in fiberglass or kevlar you will find a web site.
Look around the boat-building world. They use wood/resin/fabric composites all the time. The most common are polyester and fiberglass, for cost considerations. Carbon fiber and epoxy are used, but less commonly.
They combine carbon fiber and cedars to make paddles i know. But the boat builders have been combining those materials for some time now.
All are used together in making some prosthetic legs.
Jase--Is there a better way?
Edited 12/8/2002 8:48:21 PM ET by jase
Look at the boat building industry as suggested. Kevlar and many other materials have been bonded to wood with a two-part epoxy for years. Composite construction and lamination with epoxy is very common in the industry. Check-out the following links http://www.systemthree.com/index.html or http://www.gougeon.com/ they are manufactures of epoxy if they don’t have the info that you need on there site, give them a call they will either send you literature or give you the info over the phone. I’ve used Gougeon when I was building boats and found them to be very helpful, don’t know much about System Three but a lot of boat builders like their products.
Good luck,
RickL
Thanks for the helpful link & advice, RickL - I wish I'd made a habit of visiting this forum long ago. Did you happen to read the stories in the Hall of Shame link (on System3)? Entertaining.
Yes I have, there very funny.
RickL
As a PRO in composite construction please note.....
If you lay up wood and pre preg carbon, cloth or uD, bag it and cure it you will soak all the resin from the carbon into the wood.
No bond.......falls apart.....etc..
It would (ooops wood???!!!!) not work...However, you could manufacture, or buy a pre cured laminate of carbon and cold bond this skin to the wood using adhesive.
Now I ask...What is the point?????
Wood is wood.....carbon fibre composites are in the main used in sandwich constructions, momolythic wing spar sections etc.......
Wood costs $2 per foot
Carbon costs $2000 per foot............
Stick to wood and stop being silly!
Well PRO, I'm not sure I understand how posing a question about laminating two materials makes one "silly". The point? I like the look of laminated furniture, and it seems like one could strengthen those plys (or use fewer of them) by using carbon fiber as part of the lamination.
Incidentally, isn't your cost comparison grossly exaggerated?
sorry for the comment.....
The cost would be prohibative and a technique would have to be developed...ie) press times, temperatures etc( that is to make a carbon/ wood laminate hot glued together)
You also have the problem of expansion and contraction of disimilar materials to contend with, and the balance of the lay up ( mirror lay up round the centre axis)would also be a key factor to make a flat panel.
The expansion and contraction would be the bigest headach if you achieved to make a wood cardon laminate. Carbons moisture uptake is very different from wood.
So even if you managed to make a balanced panel, it would be very difficult to keep any shape in a changing environment. ( temp/humidity changes)
Many applications you see using carbon, bond a pre cured carbon laminate, onto a surface, to aleviate some of the above problems.
When you come to machining you have another set of problems, you just can't get your plane out and take a few shavings off the edge as with a wooden laminate, and drilling holes is another difficult task.
I hope this helps....but what the heck.the best way to find something out is to try it for yourself.!!!!
Good Luck
So why doesn't that happen with fiberglass and wood?
Are we talking a laminate...ie Ply wood interleaved with glass??
or are we talking placing a fibreglass coating over the wood using a room cure adhesive?
Are we all talking about the same carbon fibers here? People have been making golf clubs and tennis rackets and bows and arrows and hockey sticks with graphite fibers for half of my lifetime. I know some of the bows include wood, and I know from the retail prices that the materials don't cost $2000 a pound.
You're the expert. Why don't you give us some expert information instead of generalities and scorn? What temperature do they cure carbon composites at? What is the viscosity of the resin at that temperature before it starts to harden? Are there sealers that would prevent the resin from being wicked into the wood at that viscosity? If so, would the sealed surface bond to the cured resin? Do carbon composites absorb and release moisture from the air? If so, do they change dimension? If so, how do the dimensional changes compare to plywood? How strong would the bond between carbon fiber and the plywood have to be to withstand the difference?
You ask if we're talking about carbon fiber interlaminated with wood, or a fiber and resin coating on the surface of the wood. From Don's original question, there's no way to tell. It could be either one.
Carbon fibre can be purchase mainly in two catagories in either UD ( unidirectional) or woven fabrics. Many of the applications mentioned by my Uncle, are purchased in pre preg form, that is impregnated with a controled ammount of resin.
The carbon is refrigerated at arrd -20, to extend the life of the material and extend the out time , life, of the resin.
To make a flat laminate, the material is thaawed,layed up on a flat plate, and the orientation of the material is mirrored arround the centre axis of the laminate.
Depending on the type of resin system used, and the resin content, and the thickness of the laminate, and the cured per ply thickness required after cure, will depend if bleeder layers of fabric are needed on the top surface of the lay up, in order to absorb a percentage of resin, to achieve the correct thickness.
A second alternative is to use a net resin system that under stringent cure cycle controles will give a cured per ply thickness, after the cure cycle.
The laminate is then bagged up, and vac points positioned and full vac pulled consolidating the laminate. This is checked for leakage befor being place in an AUTOCLAVE.
The cure cycle usually peaks at arrd 175 deg C, ( variable depending on resin system, as there are 120 deg curing resin systems termed as low temp) however there is a ramp up rate and a cool down rate...as the laminate heats up thermo couples that have been embedded into the carbon laminate, record the actual temp. Again exotherms may occur on thick laminates, which if not controled could start a fire.
At some stage pressure is applied within the shell of the autoclave, to consolidate the laminate. An inert gas is used for this purpose.
If there is a bag leak, then voids will occur in the laminate. Resin will flow out.
We could go into viscosity and , what void content at ultrasonic ND testing is acceptable, interlaminar sheer, and void content...we could also discuss when and where and how we use adhesives in the lay up, etc etc but I need to sleep tonight.
Fishing rods which my uncle forgot to mention are manufactured in a similar way to golf shafts, except that the material is wound onto a mandrell, and then cured.
I'm not sure how much more you want but if I have stirred up a hornets nest, it was not my intention.
As for the $2000 cost of carbon.....it was printed in jest, and taken the wrong way by some readers.....
As I have already stated, the horror of wanting to combine carbon into any wooden structure, sends shivers down my spine, but that's just how passionate I am about WOOD, and it's stand alone beauty.........And you can't knock me for that!
Happy woodworking
Why so negative???? All evidence I've seen so far looks promising and there is a fairly long history of 38 years or so of the technology. Seems everyday new uses are coming out according to one source, fiberglast.com. Plus there is no need to buy a cubic foot of it so affordability looks good.
Rick
Edited 12/10/2002 7:55:12 AM ET by rsl
The beauty of wood.
I just don't see where carbon comes into a wood work forum to be honest.
It reminds me of building furniture out of that white plastic stuff they injection mould pattio chairs from, and trying to intigrate it with wood. It just does not work.
Believe me if it could be done on a commercial basis, at an affordable cost to the DIY market it would have been on the market 50 years ago....just like those books say.......it's been round a long time but no one knows what to do with it outside building aircraft parts. They are the only ones that can justiffy the cost...and you can make it stealthy.
You are one that's silly. You seem to lack vision and imagination! I work with metal and other materials so it's natural for me to mix mediums. Pure wood is fine but a bit boring at times for me. The idea of using carbon fibres with wood has some useful possibilites for other furniture applications and my research shows it is within the DIYers realm. http://www.fibreglast.com Stay away from furniture makers like Gary Knox Bennett where nothing is sacred if the idea of carbon fibres and wood seems silly to you. Anything is fair game as far as I'm concerned and controversy just makes it that much more appealing to me. So mix wood with stone, plastic, brick, neon etc.
Each to their own.
Let me know when you have something that can be made at a commercial cost to consumers.......
Happy New Year...
Oh bye the way you don't mention cost??
Well at $50 for a piece, 3feet x 4feet by .009 inches thick you are going to get a long way making even a 1/4 inch laminate for an affordable price...but hell you sound like you have money to burn on Rand D so let me know when you have an outlet in the high street for your carbon / wood product, I'd start off on Rodeo Drive.......
you know i priced carbon fibre. The prices you talk about are antiquated/out of date. There are veneers out there priced more then carbon fibre, yet people are somehow making items with them at a profit.
Sorry to hear you think combining materials is a sin but there are people that combine them with excellent results. Not everyone is a purist and most resent the high horse attitude purists and anti-purists have.
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