I need to laminate a copper sheet onto a plywood substrate for a mixed medium project I am building. Which is the best adhesive to use in this scenario?
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Replies
I saw a TV woodworker (name escapes me, but the one who's not Norm) do this a few weeks ago. Look it up on DIY.net?
You are right. He used epoxy. His name is David Mark and it was Woodworks show #111 if anyone is interested.
Yep, that's the one!
David was glueing to solid walnut as I recall - and trimming with a router. Seemed to be quite sucessful.
chris
My pick would be moisture curing polyurethane, but epoxy would also work well.
Don
I thought it all over when I went to the store and came to the same conclusion. The poly is significantly cheaper for the size piece that I need to laminate. I should be gluing up the first panel today and I will let everyone know how it worked.
OF all the materials that moisture cure PUR's miraculously stick like mad to, I'm afraid that copper is a weird one to bond to. If I remember right, adhesion is totally lost after a while, as if the copper oxidizes or something to lose the bond (I glued copper pipes to plastic this way for an art deco mirror design below) and the pipes bonded well at first, but later popped off with ease right at the glue/pipe interface. I used PL Premium polurethane construction adhesive which is very similar in chemistry to many others, so I'd be sceptical.
Gluing to copper solid walnut with ANY glue is prone to failure due to inconsistant expansion/contraction, unless the surface area is less than 2". Epoxy is too ridgid to flex with movement, so I'd use silicone. If you were bonding aluminum to wood, then PUR's are awesome, but copper really hates them.
"The furniture designer is an architect." - Maurice DuFrenes (French Art Deco furniture designer, contemporary of Ruhlmann)
http://www.pbase.com/dr_dichro http://www.johnblazydesigns.com
I guess it is back to epoxy then. The substrate will be baltic birch plywood so I don't forsee any problems of expansion and contraction. Thanks for the advice and advanced warning. Better to spend a little more up front and avoid any long term problems.
Chris
Excellent points and right on.
Let me just add on further negative with poly adhesive. It expands agressively as it cures forcing surfaces apart. To get a sucessful bond, considerable force must be consistantly applied to the total surface of the glue up. This would be very difficult in the home shop environment.Howie.........
Great point Howie - and allow me to extrapolate. I veneer all the time with Gorilla PUR - excellent veneering adhesive. You're expansion issue is precisely why I do NOT sprits the surface with any water for the following reasons:
Excessive foaming with water - unnecessary added expansion
Plywood has plenty of moisture in it - I've never had drying problems with PUR's
added water can possibly warp the substrate
When PUR's cure with less moisture, they may cure a little slower (theoretically, though I've never really noticed this), but the advantages are in a glue polymer that has higher solids. In other words, you get microfoam, not macrofoam, where the cell walls are thicker with cured polymer.
The only time I ever spritzed water onto a panel was when I veneered Pommelle Sapele onto thermoset melamine. I sanded the melamine to get better bond, and lightly dampened the melamine. I clamped as usual, and the panels came out perfect - no "pooling" of the adhesive, no sign of expansion in anyway, yet when I trimmed the edges, I couldn't delaminate the veneer off the cuttoffs.
The PUR adhesive also seeps through the pores a little, which helps create a clear grain filler.
With the risk of the copper oxidizing and delaminating, I think I agree with the contact cement response above too. - JB
"The furniture designer is an architect." - Maurice DuFrenes (French Art Deco furniture designer, contemporary of Ruhlmann)
http://www.pbase.com/dr_dichro http://www.johnblazydesigns.com
Chris
I'm not surprised copper didn't stay stuck to poly because neither contains moisture.
From a tech bulletin- (This product is AV Syntec AV 510 but I don't believe it's available outside Australia/NZ, you would have a similar adhesive)
Single pack moisture cure polyurethane adhesive 'Has excellent adhesion to all common building materials like wood, plasterboard, particle board, aluminium, iron, steel, sheet metal, polystyrene foam, concrete, FC sheet, brick, masonary, veneer, melamine, & many plastics (testing is recommended), & many other common substrates. This product will adhere to all of these products PROVIDED ONE OF THE TWO SURFACES CONTAINS MOISTURE. The product will not cure if there is no moisture available from the sustrate, Eg. bonding glass to glass is not possible.'
I'd still use poly before epoxy (cost & messing around mixing) or contact (unless you have the ability to trim after adhering). We commonly use it to laminate stainless steel to MDF for splash backs in kitchens.
Don
Try this web site for information that may answer your question:
http://www.thistothat.com/
Good luck with your project.
I'd use the Poly also, except I'd spritz a fine, light mist of water over the backside of the copper right before assembly.
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