Hey guys and gals,
This is not quite a tragedy but its certainly a conundrum. Listen to this story and see if anyone can identify the problem and offer a solution.
I started to lap the base of a Bedrock 607 today with sand paper fixed to my flat surface. While I had the coarse grit paper attached I also had a go at the base of my new LN Rabbet Block Plane and Medium Shoulder plane (the fact that they needed so much lapping is another gripe for another day).
The bedrock did not appear to be reacting the the 120 grit paper.At best I polished up the high points and no more. So I began on the Rabbet Plane and eventually I got it flat, moved to the next grit and then decided to use my water stones to polish it up.
Here’s where the problem came. My 1000 grit water stone began to develop a dark grey slurry that was out of character. My rabbet block plane lost all shine and turned a color similar to the slurry. I washed in dish soap but nothing I did seemed to work on the matt grey surface of the plane.
What the hell has happened?
Two points of note. I’ve had Boeshield on my tools to protect from rust and the Bedrock seems to be rust proof from years of, well, I’m not sure but possibly combinations of oils and such. Could these oils have gotten from the Bedrock to the dry sandpaper and onto the Block Plane? What can I do for this Block Plane and for my water stones.
I’d appreciate the help.
Eoin
Replies
Frankly, I think that those that have convinced folks like you that such extensive lapping is necessary have done the woodworking community a great disservice. The only time resort to extensive lapping is even worth considering in my opinion is when you are rehapping an old smoother where you hope to really tweak it out to the max and take super fine shavings.
And lapping LN planes of any sort seems rather absurd. If those planes were really functioning poorly and the soles showed significant deformity, I have no doubt whatsoever that LN would repair or replace those items.
As far as the shine, I have no idea, but I can't imagine that it will affect the plane's function at all.
Eoin:
I think you just took the shine off of the sole of your rabbet block plane. A 1000 grit waterstone is course enough to undo the polish your plane can with. Personally, I would never lap a plane on waterstones. They lose flatness too quickly to be reliable for this. I suggest you get some automotive super fine grit wet & dry paper to polish up the sole of your plane. I also own a LN rabbet block plane which I heavily use. Its sole came perfectly flat, no need to lap it. I tend to think that the odds of your getting both a rabbet plane and a shoulder plane from Lie-Nielsen that aren't true out of the box to be pretty slim. What are you using as a reference surface to determine flatness?
gdblake
Eoin,
Samson gave you a GREAT response. I was surprised you were doing all that lapping on the LNs.
I don't use Boeshield or any of the high tech stuff. I use Johnson's paste wax and camellia oil, whichever is closest, and I don't use much of either.
I don't think you could have done any damage with the fine grits you were using. I have a 4000 grit waterstone which gives a much brighter shine than the matching 8000 grit stone. But both give a much brighter shine than a Norton 8000 grit stone. None of this makes any difference in the cutting ability of the blades.
Have fun.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
"LN Rabbet Block Plane and Medium Shoulder plane (the fact that they needed so much lapping is another gripe for another day).
------Can you tell us why you thought it necessary to lap them?
"Here's where the problem came. My 1000 grit water stone began to develop a dark grey slurry that was out of character. My rabbet block plane lost all shine and turned a color similar to the slurry. I washed in dish soap but nothing I did seemed to work on the matt grey surface of the plane."
That is nothing to worry about- I can't explain why it happens but I know it also happens with steel or brass-might be related to the very fine dust or sludge resulting from the abrasive particles breaking down.It doesn't affect the way the plane slides.
You can easily return the sole to a bright appearance (if you must), by either planing as normal or using some silicon carbide paper , dry, on a block-220 to 400 grit as you like. If you use it with kerosene the grey colour remains- and no need to ask how I know that.
There is so much dysfunction in your post, so many misplaced priorities, and plain wrong-thinking I don't even know where to start.
Just go work some wood. Try to suffer through the plane bottoms not being as shiny as a mirror.
As for the waterstone, the only thing in the whole array that actually does need lapping from time to time, lap it when it goes out of flat from being used to sharpen cutters.
Edited 10/16/2009 4:12 pm ET by Marsupial
Lapping an L-N??? Why in God’s name would you even consider that? I have a number of them (L-V also) and main reason I spent all that money was because they’re good to go out of the box.
Eoin,
To me, that matte, gray finish means "flat". That's the way lapped Veritas plane blades come. Interestingly enough, if you look at them from a really low angle (like sighting down the sole when settng the depth of cut), you see a perfect reflection like a mirror.
and www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
There seems to be some confusion between "flat" and "polished". Flat is important, polished is nice.One could make the case that the matte surface will hold wax better.
"There seems to be some confusion between "flat" and "polished". Flat is important, polished is nice."Right. Buffing wheels produce nice, polished surface. However, good luck on getting a flat surface from one. Polished may reduce friction (or may not), but in my opinion is largely aesthetics.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Friction is proportional to the contact area so a ridged or rippled surface will glide more easily over a flat one than a flat one will.On the other hand two ridged or rippled surfaces will not slide ove each other easily because the protrusions will snag each other.You pays your money and you takes your pick. I usually get to polished at 400 grit (The European scale - I forget what it's called) but I lap with 60 -100 grit first until I get "flat" which is when my magic marker lines are all erased evenly. Scratches and score lines don't matter.If it weren't for discussions on sharpening and lapping these fora would not be as much fun :-)
Logically, the less surface area = less friction idea makes sense, but I do recall that at one time they made planes with corrugated soles, but no longer. I think I read somewhere that whether or not the sole is corrugated makes a significant differnece in friction.For the record, I've never used a corrugated plane. I found one to buy at a garage sale for $10 (a steal) and picked it up and continued to look around. I put it down for a moment to look at something else and somebody else snatched it. Grrr.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I believe Anant still makes a corrugated sole, though I wouldn't be tempted to try one.
Jim
To all, I've been away for a few days and have missed the opportunity to assure you all that I'm not quite the polish happy mug I have been made out to be. 'Folks like me...'. Exactly what is a folk like me? Maybe I should clarify my reasoning and operation.The rabbet block plane needed to be flattened. That I'm sure to be unusual from LN. As far as I'm concerned every shoulder plane, at least of the record type design, needs to be flattened out of the box. When the iron is secured in place the holding force causes a slight bend in the plane body. I hope this is assurance that my urge to risk tennis elbow while lapping was not unwarrantedThe block plane took considerable effort on 120 grit paper on my flat granite slab with the majority coming off at the mouth beneath the iron. The pattern formed when flattening seemed to indicate a deflection when the blade was tensioned in place. I can't see how this might happen however. The shoulder plane took much less work to get flat. I was using the waterstones to bring up a polish after flattening which I don't believe to be unreasonable.There is a real problem here. I can only guess that my 120 grit paper became contaminated from the Bedrock plane and the years of oils etc. This was then transferred on to the rabbet block plane. The slurry on the water stone was not the normal color. A little spot of oil has also appeared on top of the water in my container.'I think you took the shine off your rabbet block plane'. Honestly, give a man some credit. For heavens sake!!! The matt grey color was like a new coat of paint. It was that unusual. I'll will have to post a photo tomorrow.Phillip Marcou, thank you. Yours was the only effort at an answer.As for the rest of you I'm disappointed that very little effort has been made to answer the question. If there is some dysfunction in my initial post it is down to a failure in my communication skills, not my reasoning or method. There's a genuine problem here and its not my preference for polishing or not. For the record my view is that, for any thing like this, just enough is enough. I don't feel the need to be looking at myself on the back of my hand tools. I hope some of you take this opportunity to redeem yourselves with a genuine effort at resolving my problem. To clarify: (1). What has caused the unusual appearance on my block plane. (2) Will I need to remove it? If it is oil of some sort I don't want to come off on my work. (3) Is my water stone OK. If it is oil how do I remove it from the stone. Eoin
Quite simply, all I meant by "folks like you" was woodworkers who are convinced that lapping is some sort of routine and necessary thing for their steel planes. No offense.
I really do think home lapping (as opposed to machine shop precision grinding), more often then not, causes more harm than good.
First, I see absolutely no reason for me to “redeem” myself to you, what is your authority to ask for that? It was very poor choice of words.<!----><!----><!---->
I stand by my earlier statement that none of the newer high quality planes, (L-N or L-V), need lapping; if they are not flat or square, as you claim that yours wasn’t, then return it. Not having to fettle them is one of the reasons for the higher price. Having tuned up a lot of old Stanley’s, Millers Falls, Sergeants, etc I for one think they are well worth it. Sorry if that is not the advice you were looking for but it seems to be the common opinion. <!----><!---->
As to what “flat” is… it seems to me the Goddard’s and Townsends did some pretty fantastic work with planes that I’m sure were never as flat as some experts would advocate. And I’m sure a couple of Krenov style planes I’ve made are not flat enough but they seem to work just fine. <!----><!---->
If you wanted the shine you should have just progressed on to higher grit sandpaper - the autobody variety in the 1500 to 2000 grit range.
Don't use waterstones to lap handplanes.
To everybody, before and after my last post, I appreciate the effort people go to when answering other peoples questions. Respect to the effort.I got a little bothered when the discussion was not about my question but rather whether I was right or wrong to be lapping my planes in the first place. I have taken on board some of the advise given. I have purchase wet and dry sand paper up to 1200 grit and this should suffice. I've put some serious work into the Bedrocks this morning . Still not flat all over but they should be OK. My LN's are perfect now. The matt grey surface came off the rabbet block plane. I am still left with the problem of contamination on my water stones. How can this unknown oily substance be removed. Will white spirits take this off or is it possible that the spirits will damage the stones?I have also fitted new plane irons to the Bedrocks (605 and 606). The result of the thicker irons is that the mouth of the plane is almost closed (.15mm/6 thou's) when the frog is back as far as will allow the iron to sit properly. I think I need to file the front of the mouth. Is there any advice or particular considerations on this?Eoin
Eoin, on the stones, the type-man made or natural- may make a difference, others may know if spirits will be a bad thing. I would just try Dereks 220 paper, dry on a flat surface and cut a new face then try it out.
On the iron. Been there, done that and have a T shirt, hat and coffee mug that say "DUMB" in big letters. ha ha ha. Well not really dumb, just not informed.
I took an iron from a Clifton and set it up in a nicely tuned up Bedrock and found that I too had more iron than mouth. The first very workable solution given me was to file the mouth but not being a master filer and not wanting to alter a very clean plane, condemning it forever to fat irons, I sought more info.
I called Ron Hock and he turned on the lights of education. The solution was in the fine print--actually in the numbers. The Stanley irons are nominally .080 so a monster Clifton is out of the question. So is a LN iron made for an LN plane at .1248. BUT, LV .094, LN .095 and Hock .096 make replacement irons specifically for Stanley, Record, Millers Falls, Sargent and most of the other older bedrock/bailey style planes and they work very well.
Some do nicely with the stock irons, others want the thickest to hold off the chatter on ugly boards and they file the mouth, it works. I choose a middle ground with the modern replacements and the use of the Clifton two piece chip breaker from Highland Woodworking, their copy of the old Record two piece stay-put cap. It is a personal thing .
All the best, Paddy (related to the Kilkenny cats)
Eoin:
In spite of your childish whining to the contrary, my response, which you quoted, was correct, you just lapped the polish off of your rabbet plane. And just as I recommended, you were able to restore the polish on the super-fine grit sandpaper. So much for the need to redeem myself.
Now to help you with your stones. I would not recommend using a petroleum based product to remove possible contaminates. I tested this on my own 1000 grit stone first, so I am comfortable recommending washing your stone with dishwashing liquid to remove any oils. Scrubbing gently with an old toothbrush will help. You may need to wash the stone two or three times, changing the water each time and rinsing the stone under running water. Then lap the stone on clean 220 grit wet/dry paper and finish with a final rinse. If your stone is still discolored, I wouldn't worry as long as it works as it use to.
gdblake
Eoin-
I have been in similar situations with the exact planes that you mention in your post, except that I had done quite a bit of research before launching into applying any abrasives to either the new planes or antique versions. That was many years ago an now I am comfortable with the process, when it is necessary. I realize you are sensitive to criticism, but I would have to agree with all of the former posters that a new Lie-Nielsen tool would not need relapping for flatness. They all leave the factory either hand lapped or surface ground for flatness. The only time that you need to lap this quality of tool would be to remove rust (which I had once due to a plumbing leak above my shop) or scratches. I highly doubt that you will ever achieve anywhere near the flatness with your Bedrock plane that L-N delivers from the factory, even on a bad day. Now that you have used a water stone on your planes (which were not meant for that purpose as they are too soft), I would use some 400 grit w/d paper on a known flat surface such as a granite plate, and lightly lap the L-N planes back to original smoothness and brightness.
I see no problem with Boeshield on your planes. I use it for storage frequently.
As far as the Bedrock plane goes, lapping of old planes is a bit of a treacherous endeavor, although you probably won't make the situation worse. I would be leery of learning on a valuable Bedrock. Use a common #5 for practice. You need to have a long flat surface covered with sandpaper from a long sanding belt, cut open and stretched out. A jointer bed might work for this. If you lap on a shorter flat surface like a graite plate, you likely will end up with high spots at the toe and heel, which basically make the plane useless. For a #5 planes use a 36" belt. Klingspoor sells boxes of cutoffs from industrial sanding belts that are very large. You also might consider having the plane surface ground, but it is expensive and removes quite a bit of metal in the process. Stanley planes were originally lapped on large belt sanders. Good luck. You can only learn by doing.
Edited 10/21/2009 11:23 am ET by Handrubbed
Handrubbed, cheers for that. I like to think I can take constructive criticism but we all have our off days I guess. Thats a good point regarding the long surface for lapping the bedrocks. I've bought sandpaper by the meter off a roll at my local supplier which would work perfectly.Have you any thoughts on opening the mouth of the bedrock planes? I have new irons from Lie Nielsen and the mouth is too small. If one was to file the mouth would you work on the front as is the obvious option or is it better to work on the back and use the frog to give a line and angle. Or is it a bad idea on the whole. Eoin
If you have the proper blades from Lie-Nielsen, the .095 inch ones that are sold for old Stanley planes, you can use them without any alteration. Same for the ones from Hock blades. I have both and have never had to alter the mouth of any plane. In fact, I would advise against it. You do have to move the frog back by about 1/16" so that you have about 1/16" net mouth opening on the jack style plane.
I apologize if you are on metric where you live.
Edited 10/21/2009 6:59 pm ET by Handrubbed
I have opened the mouth on a #7 Bailey to take an almost 1/8" thick iron from Joel Moskowitz (TWW). I filed the front of the mouth with an auger file as it is "safe" on the sides so you don't widen the mouth. The TWW iron is about the thickness of a Clifton. The regular LN blades for a 4 1/2 or #7 are even thicker @ .140. There is another issue to consider which is the length of the pawl that engages the iron to adjust it up and down. Before filing the mouth I would make sure the the new iron adjusts properly -- even it will not clear the mouth. You will notice more backlash which may or may not bother you. But if the iron is too thick for the pawl then it will not adjust or stay in place properly. There was a thread in Sawmill Creek about adapting a #7 for a .140 LN iron and what had to be done. For my type 15 #7 the result was great and just involved a little work on the mouth -- but had my iron been thicker I believe I would have had some issues.
Edited 10/21/2009 8:47 pm ET by 7Joel
Generally, opening the mouth on a Bedrock #7 is a bad idea on the whole.
Assuming you're not talking about a rusted-out junker that needed restoring, that plane has quite a bit of value. Less so after you lapped it, but still far, far more than if you open the mouth. If you do open the mouth, the plane will be worth about $50, if that. Unmolested, it's worth in the $225 range (about $350 before lapping).
If the monetary value doesn't matter to you, you will get the best performance out of the plane with a L-N replacement made for a Stanley, or a similar Hock iron. There are several reasons for this, but one of them is that the cap iron and lever cap on a Bedrock plane are not meant for a thick iron. While I"ve seen people fit thick L-N blades to Baileys, in my opinion the plane will never perform as well as if they'd used a replacement 0.095 thick iron.
Regarding the waterstone contamination. You can, as suggested, use a soak in dishwashing soap and warm water to remove some of the contamination, but this will be a very tedious process, as you'll likely have to repeat it many times to get all of it out. Your contaminant is likely to be cosmoline - many old-timers used it to prevent rust on their planes when stored in a tool box over a long period.
Mineral spirits is a bad idea. Mineral spirits contains high-boiling point aliphatic hydrocarbons that are similar in properties to oils. You may well get the contamination out, but you will then have to get the mineral spirits out, see above procedure with dishwashing liquid.
If you want to completely solvate the oily contamination from the stones, you can soak them in laquer thinner. Laquer thinner will do a good job of solvating the grease, but will evaporate completely without leaving behind an oily residue. Note that you will actually have to soak the stone in laquer thinner - simply wiping it over the surface is unlikely to have any beneficial effect.
Finally, regarding the matte gray finish you found on the malleable iron surface of your L-N planes - this is not actually totally attributable to roughening the finish; it is a chemical reaction between the iron and the binders in the stone, and it renders these surfaces with a somewhat greyish appearance. That appearance does not affect use whatsoever, though. You can prove this to yourself by lapping a piece of steel over a coarse diamond stone. The iron's surface will be abraded and rough, but it will have the appearance of silver (i.e., bright and shiny). The same iron lapped on a 1000 grit waterstone will have a dull gray appearance, though the surface scratches will be considerably smaller.
And finally - remember that lapping will show surface irregularities down to a few ten thousandths of an inch, so assessing the flatness of a plane (any plane) solely by lapping and looking to see where the surface is being taken away is not appropriate. Also, regarding Lie-Nielsen's copy of the Sargeant 507, realize that tightness of the lever cap will flex the body of the plane, albiet slightly and in the ten thousandths of an inch range. This is true of all Lie-Nielsen planes, all Record planes, all Clifton planes, and every other metal plane that has ever existed.
Such tolerances are not only not beneficial to woodworking, they are an exercise in frustration for newbies. ;-)
Again, thank you all for the info, I bought the two bedrocks - 605 and 606 - to use. The condition was not great and so they were cheaper than normal. The paint/japaning was falling off the 606 and the 605 was splashed with a rainbow of other paints. The soles of both were badly scratched, pitted and dented some. Not a rusted up piece of junk either though. I'm sure they can be made good. For work and not as an ornament. The two irons I've got are both 0.095" Lie Nielsen. They both fit well onto the frog and with the cap iron. Adjustment seems fine. Still, with the frog as far back as will allow the iron sit snugly, the mouth opening is still only .15mm/6 thou's approx on both planes. That doesn't leave much room for adjustment.I must do some further study. David Charlesworth has a lot to answer for going by the posts here.RegardsEoinPS: Paddydahat, are you a Kilkenny man?
I've done a whole lot of woodworking. I don't think there was ever a time in my professional or amateur career that I knew what the throat opening measurements were on my planes. I've certainly never attempted to measure them.Are you under the impression that this sort of exercise is necessary in order to build furniture? If so, who gave you that impression?
It's almost funny listening to people like you looking down your nose at any question you perceive to be out of the realm of "real" woodworking. I am sure you have done a lot of woodworking, and I am sure you could build an eight story Japanese Pagoda with nothing more than a chisel and your golden hands. Good for you. But why subject everyone to your snide comments because what you view as important is different than somebody else's. You scold and chide with a meanspirited arrogance that suggests that you are the supreme wood woodworker indeed.
Maybe you could petition to be elected as the Knots Arbiter of Who is a Woodworker and Who Isn't.
Fettling planes in my opinion is a slippery slope, as is tool collecting, sharpening and a lot of other pursuits aligned with woodworking. And in my own opinion, quite overblown. I think much ado has been made about much of the corallary aspects of the craft, and there are a lot of experts out there who fettle, sharpen and collect until they are crafts unto themselves. So what? People spend their time in this craft doing what they choose to do. It's not my perception of time well spent, and obviously not yours. But it is almost comical that one could exhibit such an air of superiority over a simple question. I am glad you are so secure in your place in the Woodworking Pantheon that you can question whether a fellow poster actually has a woodworking project going. That is almost as arrogant a question as the one a few years ago where someone dismissively said to a fellow Hall of Famer like yourself, "He probably has less than 50 board ft. of lumber stored in his shop."
I would throw the question back to you...Who should stop typing and get into the shop, someone asking a detailed question about lapping and fettling planes (maybe to an uneccessary degree) or an obvious Hall of Fame Level woodworker like yourself who actually took the time to come out of the shop, read the current thread, and then type nothing but an arrogant attack? Your second commment actually could have been helpful if it was actually worded positively and wasn't preceded by your first comment.
It's almost funny listening to people like you looking down your nose at any question you perceive to be out of the realm of "real" woodworking. I am sure you have done a lot of woodworking, and I am sure you could build an eight story Japanese Pagoda with nothing more than a chisel and your golden hands. Good for you. But why subject everyone to your snide comments because what you view as important is different than somebody else's. You scold and chide with a meanspirited arrogance that suggests that you are the supreme wood woodworker indeed.
I've obviously struck a raw nerve. Maybe a few one-putts will put you back right in the head. I personally ascribe to the putt as a mini swing, not a straight back straight through motion.
I wasn't looking down my nose, just making a statement that furniture can be built without feeler gauges and micrometers in the shop and wondering why the gentleman was putting himself through all the agony. It's not necessary.
If he gets frustrated and put out, he's quite welcome to send the Bedrocks my way. I'm sure I can have them cutting beautifully inside 30 minutes, guarawn-teed.
Edited 10/22/2009 3:47 pm ET by Marsupial
I wasn't looking down my nose, just making a statement that furniture can be built without feeler gauges and micrometers in the shop and wondering why the gentleman was putting himself through all the agony. It's quite unnecessary.
It probably wasn't meant as meanspirited as it came off. But when people say things like, "Do you actually have a woodworking project going right now?" There is not a lot of gray area there.
I think you're correct though (at least I should say I agree with you) that woodworking is not a place for micrometers and feeler gauges. I just get a little put off when a question comes up regarding one of the more wonkish aspects of woodworking comes up and the Spartans come out of nowhere to criticize anything that is not in their definition of woodworking.
I appreciate your measured response to my probably over the top rant...and yes, a few one putts would really go a long way.
Peace
The question about a woodworking project was meant to be a nudge to put a little perspective back into the thing. That's all. None of this stuff should keep somebody from woodworking, if that's what they want to do.
I'm pretty sure the Lie Nielsen planes are at least usable ('ya think?) and I'm equally sure the Bedrocks could be brought into play pretty quickly.
I'm confident our friend could be planing wood to his heart's content by this coming Saturday. Does he want to?
Edited 10/22/2009 3:50 pm ET by Marsupial
As I said, I pretty much agree with you. I have a few old Bedrocks which took about an hour to whip into fantastic user shape. I also have many Lie-Nielsen products which have never arrived in anything less than perfect shape and have never given a thought to lapping etc.
Also, your nudge is pretty harmless in retrospect. Email and these types of communucation lack the subtleties of the spoken word.
You responses obviously prove that you are not the person who I tried to light up in my original post.
I do have a project going right now, which I think I'll go work on right now.
Eoin, my dad's folks are from Kilkenney,my mom's gang from Cork but the whole mob wound up in Argentia Newfoundland, Canada. Dad had three sisters and seven brothers that lived. Four of the boys moved to the USA in the 1930's, they split up to Boston, Mass., Providence RI., and New York city which were big enclaves of Newfie Irish back in those days. Paddy
Ah yes Paddy (dahat)I think we've had this conversation before. There's not many Irish woodworkers living in Ireland from what I can see. The hurling reference had me curious...Eoin
OK, humble pie time.The irons fit just fine as pointed out. I didn't account for the extra retraction given to the frog by the bevel of the iron. Just as well I didn't take the file out.No gloating now please.....Eoin
Chris
I got a Stanley #4 courgated sole made in Canada. $3.50 for that one and a block plane.
Garage sale. $$paid I shuffle quickly. I cleaned them up the #4 was in good shape as it was covered with grease and paint,,, and it works like a sweety, I was planing some Oak today with it.Getting back to lapping. I think I understand why a plane will distort when under blade tension. A valid question. When you think of the very localized point pressures, How many #s per square inch are we applying to keep that blade locked in place, vs the #s per square inch of pressure applied to the forward and downward pressures while planing. As the blade dulls these forces would rise rather fast.Any metal engineers out there?
Just a minor point, I think friction is proportional to the coefficient of friction times the weight applied. Area is not directly proportional. I can just about remember doing tests on bodies on an inclined plane at college.
Eoin,
So, why was it necessary to lap a brand new LN rabbet plane? From the factory, they have very high tolerances for flatness. A precision straight edge and feeler gauges would be the best judge of that. Were one to find an out-of-flat LN, it would be best to contact the factory, they stand behind their work.
One does not typically grind the paint off a brand new Ferrari, only to repaint it. At least get a door ding or rock chip first.....
I've no idea why the rabbet block plane was not flat. It was, as described, proud at the mouth behind the iron. There was another interesting note. A small area the size of a penny on the base of the plane, immediately in line with the cap screw, was recessed. It was like the cap screw was pulling up on this point. I kept the plane in tension by leaving the iron in place while flattening it. Is it possible the rabbet block plane deforms like a shoulder plane? I don't think so myself as I can't see how but I'm open to suggestions.I've had this plane for a while now but it hasn't done much work. Maybe it was dropped at some stage and the front bent up. I'm really not sure.As for my childish whining I still stand firm in my observation. I have a degree in mechanical engineering so I have seen steel polished and other wise. To remove it today I had to return to 220 grit and start back from there. I worked the plane up to 1200 grit which is more than enough for me. In the interest of science however I got the 4000 grit water stone, which was contaminated, and as soon as it touched the plane the same thing began to happen. So I stopped. I should have photographed the original condition as I said but in the heat of the action I forgot.I will concede, in the interest of finding an answer and a harmonious resolution, that it may some kind of combination of oil, grit and a dulling of the plane as well as contamination. I'm still none the wiser though. The water stones will need attention tomorrow. I'll take your points on board gdblake.Paddy, thanks for the reply. I'll study and revert tomorrow
How tight do you lock the blade down? It seems to me that if you lock it down tighter than 'spec' (whatever that is) you'll deform the plane a little?I've got to say that I have to agree with most of the posters. If I had a LN or LV plane that wasn't flat I'd send it back... I've never bought one that I'd consider lapping.To each their own. Good luck.
I use a simple method the ensure the I don't over tighten the block plane, shoulder plane or similar. I use the tips of my thumb and index finger. To really go to town on it you'd have to bring it close to the other end of the index finger.It may have been squeezed up tight in the past though.Eoin
Do you have a woodworking project going at the moment?
Eoin:
Just to prove myself correct I decided to take one of my block planes (not my favorite LN rabbet plane) and lap it on a 1000 grit waterstone. Very quickly, the sole took on a dull matte grey color that almost looked painted. Plus my waterstone was imbedded with this same grey material. That is because ductile iron is a dull matte grey color when it is not polished. Starting with 220 grit sandpaper just as you did and proceeding up to 1000 grit wet /dry paper restored the polish on my plane. My stones are not contaminated with oil and yet I got the same results. The waterstones will return to normal as well if you clean them and lap them on 220 grit paper.
Thank you for sharing with us that you are a mechanical engineer, that explains a great deal to me. Up to a year ago, one of my responsibilities was to review the work of civil engineers to check for mistakes and insure the site was buildable as designed and meet all zoning regulations. It use to crack me up at how much tunnel vision the engineers would have. They would all get so fixated on some piece of minutia that they would miss the obvious and make embarrassing mistakes. If I ever decide to go for a Ph.D. in psychology I feel certain my thesis will address this phenomena.
gdblake
PS: If you feel a need to address my short comings I'm sure my wife would be happy to take a few moments away from compiling the never ending list to share some of the highlights.
Edited 10/19/2009 10:33 pm ET by gdblake
Edited 10/21/2009 10:01 am ET by gdblake
Eoin:
No comment on why you had to re-do a L-N. Mine worked fine out of the box. That's moot.
I use silicon carbide paper to flatten and/or sharpen, adding a bit of honing oil (3-n-1 works) and have had no problems with it. It's available in a wide range of grits.
Mind, I don't go at it until I've a mirror polish, although were I to do so, I'd probably use some polishing compound on a piece of 0.250 plate glass. You can frequently get it from glass shops as used plate, they'll cut down broken display windows to smaller sizes.
Hope this was of some use to you.
Remember, whatever you do, enjoy doing it.
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