I’m making a large rustic farmhouse table out of 80 year old Italian Chesnut as a commission for the owner of a wine store who went over to the family winery/farm when his brother died and bought it back here. (I mention this cause I’m scared to death I’m gonna mess up and my mantra every time I even look side ways at it is “don’t screw it up” 🙂
Anyway, the table is 33″ wide by 78″ long by 8/4 and after reading some old posts, I realized that I hadn’t been considering biscuiting the table top planks (5 1/2″ wide) together, I was just going to glue with epoxy. So my question is should I biscuit?
The wood is very stable 7 – 8% moisture…one of the planks is a little twisted, but I’m going to have to deal with it. Everything else being even, is bicuiting really necessary?
Alison
Replies
The biscuits aren't necessary. I'd use elmers or titebond for glue instead of epoxy. I usually handplane the glue joint and strive for a slightly sprung joint. A little gap in the middle prior to clamping is good. I glue a couple boards at a time and align them by hand. I tend to find biscuits don't help all that much with alignment and if they are off just a hair you can't easily correct it. Break the top into manageable glue-ups and you won't have any trouble.
Tom
Douglasville, GA
Edited 4/19/2004 8:55 pm ET by Tom
Allison,
Aside from helping to align the boards, the biscuits won't add any strength. That being said I would use them for alignment. I would also use epoxy for the longer working time. It's a lot of surface to get glue onto and get together in the 10 minutes you will have to work with yellow glue. Epoxy will give you longer working time and will not be suscepible to creep which may cause the board edges to become uneven during expansion and contraction over the life of the table.
TDF
Alison,
I'm curious how far your planning to go with the flattening and jointing the wood? I'd hate to loose the patina and, for a wine store, nice waxed finish over open seams (rough jointing) could look quite nice. Have you and the owner agreed to a finish look? thanks
BG, it's going to be a very simple finish of BLO and sanding to a really high grit.....I did a sample piece and it looked lovely. The only question in my mind right now is that when I dropped some red wine on it, which will not doubt happen in real life, it stained the wood black.
I'm hoping that a good coat of wax will reduce this to some degree...the owner and I have discussed this and he understands that it could/will happen. He's signed the sample piece. The wood also has numerous pinholes, worm lines and other distress. The very worst bits I'll fill with clear epoxy, but the rest will all just add to the "charm" :)
As for getting it completely level...well...I'd like to think I can get pretty close, all of table top boards are really pretty flat, with the exception of this one dardestly piece that's giving me fits. I've always struggled with working with twist. I'd like to deliver it all reasonably flat cause even when people say they understand that they are getting a rustic piece, they still seem to want it perfect ::sigh::, I also know if I don't get it pretty close, that I'm going to really fight with the breadboard ends.
Alison
Alison
the word "rustic" got me thinking. Do you have to glue the boards together? Could you get the look you're after by leaving a 1/8in gap between the boards, or by just butting the boards together? You could use acrylic dowels to keep the boards aligned and screw them to pair of cross-wise cleats set between the aprons.
Ian
Edited: clicked the Post button by mistake. Returned to finish the post.
Edited 4/20/2004 8:18 am ET by ian
Ian - I'm not sure I understand exactely what you are proposing.
Would the long boards of the table only be held together by the breadboard ends?
Alison
I'll try to describe it a little better. Several times I've come across very old (100+yrs) wooden tables where the top consists of separate boards lying side-by-side rather glued together. None of these tables had breadboard ends and the gap between the boards was thick enough to slot a piece of paper through but not much more. The individual boards are typically 12 or more inches wide and unfinished except for the sheen that comes from regular scrubbing. After years of use the tables looked very much like a working kitchen table rather than a show piece, but the tops were always to a casual look FLAT. Now I don't know whether the original glue joint between the boards had failed or whether the original table top was never glued together. I suspect the later. Apart from the tops the tables all looked to be well constructed with strong aprons and sturdy legs. Whist I have sat several of these tables I didn't think to look underneath but suspect that the individual boards were fixed to the frame. Looking back I don't think any of these tables were located in an air conditioned environment and the regular scrubbing probably kept the top at a constant moisture content.
Given what I understand to be your design brief, I wondered whether such a construction would produce the rustic look you're after.
I was also influenced by a table in the most recent issue of Australian Wood Review were the maker had cut the boards to follow a wavy grain pattern and deliberately assembled the top with gaps between teh boards. I can posyt a pic if you wish.
Ian
Alison,
The old yankees up here would immediately slap a piece of glass on top to preserve and protect the finish. I like Ian's idea....Norm used to fine similar pieces in the antique shops of England...but, that's us, not your customer....lol
Well you have responses from both ends of the spectrum. Either method will work. I personally don't think you can get as good looking a joint with epoxy. Epoxy has to be a fairly thick glue line to form a proper bond. I would be afraid of starving the joint using the methods I normally use with epoxy as the glue. Elmers white or titebond extend will give you plenty of open time to work.
Of course that's the beauty of this medium. Plenty of options for getting the job accomplished.
Tom
Douglasville, GA
Alison,
Oh, the biscuit question! This comes up now and again, and it usually rouses up some controversy.
My personal feeling is that, YES biscuits DO add strength. When I first started doing woodworking, I didn't know much about jointing boards. I made a table top out of six 36" pieces of poplar. But here's the point -- I did not joint the edges at all, and I used #20 biscuits for the glue-up. I finished the top with four layers of polyurethane. Today, about six years later, the table top looks perfect. No gaps at all. It may be debatable whether it is the biscuits that are helping out, but I offer this story for consideration.
I have numerous other projects I used biscuits for which prove, to me anyway, that biscuits add strength.
The key is to know when they are a good idea and when they are not. But this is a bigger discussion.
For your current project, I would say that biscuits would add strength and help with alignment.
You definitely don't need biscuits. I did a lot of testing on glue-ups with just regular yellow glue, and not one properly assembled joint broke on the glue line, but rather through the wood itself. If the joint is stronger than the wood, you don't need any more. Why waste the time?
Biscuits don't help much with alignment, either -- too much slack. I get better results aligning the boards by hand.
I recommend against epoxy for edge jointing for several reasons. Ease of cleanup is one. Toxicity is another - bad to get on your skin. The rigidity of most epoxies is yet another. There will be some seasonal movement in 8/4 wood, and a PVA glue will accommodate that movement better. PVA glues have been used in industry for glue-ups for decades with a failure rate as close to zero as you can get, practically speaking. You are also more likely to get proud glue lines with epoxy. I use epoxies a lot when it is appropriate, but I think plain ol' titebond is a better bet here.
Here's what I would if I wanted to preserve the original surfaces as much as possible:
I'd glue two boards together first, making sure they were aligned as close to perfect as possible. Use your fingers to feel whether the joints are flush; they'll tell you more than your eyes. Place bar clamps every 6 to 9 inches, and align the joint at the clamp as you tighten it. Re-tighten all the clamps and check alignment after a few minutes when the glue has squeezed out as much as it's going to. Use clamps or cauls on the face if you need to, but it's better if you can get it aligned by hand -- less stress built into the joint..
After an hour or more in the clamps, add another board in the same way. Titebond only needs about an hour of clamp time before the piece can be handled, if you have a well fitting joint. There's nothing wrong with a "sprung" joint, as long as the gap is about the thickness of a piece of paper and doesn't require much pressure to close it. It seems the ends always shrink more than the middles. It might be kind of hard to maintain that kind of precision on large pieces, though.
Keep adding pieces every hour or two, or whenever you feel like it, and you'll end up with a good glue-up and joints as close to perfectly flush as you can get, even if you use flattening cauls. It's a little time consuming, but flattening wide glue-ups takes a lot of time, too. There's really no benefit in trying to glue them all up at once in a case like this. Even if you don't care about the original surface, it makes things a lot easier to finish out with a plane.
The one twisted board is a problem. I have a technique to staighten it while preserving the original surfaces if you are interested. It's a little involved. If you plane it to flatten it, you will either have to plane everything else down to match it or else leave the bottom of the top uneven. Another alternative if it's not TOO twisted is to use it for an outside piece where it won't throw the whole top off. Boards usually twist becase of grain runoff and anomalous growth, so it will likely continue to swist and untwist with seasonal changes in moisture. Might want to leave it out altogether, or make small parts with it.
Last, regarding the finish. BLO is a pretty poor choice. It offers almost no protection, and darkens severely with age. It's also useless to sand much over 150 on open grained woods, because of the wood's texture. If you are sanding BLO with super fine grits, I think that is probably a waste of time, too, because you are not sanding a hardened film, and the surface will chage greatly with time.
If you don't have good finishing skills, why not use an alkyd wiping varnish, or thin a regular varnish to wiping consistency? This will give you a lot more protection, and won't darken so badly over time. I don't like the look of any oil based polys I've seen, but Behlen, Pratt&Lambert, and McCloskey all make good alkyd varnishes, among many others.
Just a few points to consider.........
Michael R
Michael,
Even though this is Alison's thread, I just want to say that your last post was terrific. Thanks for the information and advice, which I am sure most of us can use.
Matthew, thanks for the kind words. I have lots of opinions, but they are earned from lots of experience. I try not to write anything that I can't back up objectively.
People can do whatever they choose, but I think it is good to make informed choices, and not make decisions based on incomplete or inaccurate information.
Alison, if you decide to try the method I suggested for gluing up, make sure you joint all your boards and lay them up dry before you start to glue, and check each step for flatness. Small inaccuracies tend to multiply themselves, and if you don't watch carefully, you can end up with a twist. I do my glue-ups on sawhorses that I have carefully checked for alignment, and I often use cauls, even when gluing up step by step. A lot of the time I glue panels all at once, but with large, difficult ones the slow way saves time in the long run.
Michael R.
Edited 4/21/2004 9:41 am ET by Woodwiz
Woodwiz,
I built a series of "bridges" for glue-ups. I lay the pieces down on the horizontal part of the bridges, and then I use 2x2 cauls, layed cross-wise over the panels to keep them flat during clamping. The horizontal surface of the bridges and the 2x2 cauls are wrapped in duct tape, which prevents sticking.
I do all my jointing on a router table, and I always check the joints before adding glue, to make sure they are perfect.
I recently started a thread about glue-up anxiety (in the Cafe). Of course, doing it in smaller stages, as you suggest, would help reduce that anxiety!
Matthew,
I was thinking of you yesterday as I was gluing up this very contemporary coffee table... I did a dry run and every thing went well. Of course then I got the glue out and everything went to hell in handbasket.
I was in a cold sweat and panicking half way through. Fortunately, I'd been reading your thread about glue up anxiety and started laughing at myself. I slowed down, remembered to breath, and started to work steadily and methodically again and hey presto! the wretched thing went together. So, thank you! You saved the day.
Alison
Michael .... I started yesterday and glued up a couple of boards. It went well, so I think the adding a board one at a time is a good one. I decided against using biscuits, I think there is enough surface area of glue with 8/4 to give a sufficiently strong joint.
I've left the twisted one out of the mix for now. I will have to add it at the end, but I'm thinking of ripping it in half and putting each half on either side...don't know if this will help.
The only challenge I have is your comments about BLO....I've worked with it before and agree that it does darken the wood, but are you really sure that it over time it will turn the wood black? I kinda feel like that's myth. All wood will darken more over time with or without BLO, but for a light coloured chestnut to turn completely black??? The purpose of using it is to give that slightly aged, but warm look.
You're right about it not giving any protection, the goal with this table is for it to get more distressed over time. It will be fairly gently used....a genteel crowd of wine drinkers, so I'm more concerned about wine stains than rough use. But the one doubt I have is that BLO = Oil and oil repells liquids? Am I off base?
As to sanding, the sample piece I finished has a really nice sheen....I sanded it up to 1500. It's so smooth and satiny, everyone picks it up and babies it, they really enjoy touching it. So the sanding is for the tactile pleasure and has made a difference...
Everyone, your comments are much appreciated. I've been missing the company of other woodworkers lately and being able to mingle with you guys really helps.
Alison, I'm glad my suggestion was of some help. Ripping the twisted board and putting it on the outside is a good idea. Anything to minimize its effect on the top.
>>The only challenge I have is your comments about BLO....I've worked with it >>before and agree that it does darken the wood, but are you really sure that it >>over time it will turn the wood black? I kinda feel like that's myth.
One thing I really try to work against is the promulgation of incorrect information or myths over the web. I have been making things out of wood (for money) for over 45 years now, 32 as a full time professional, 20 in industrial furniture manufacturing, and 12 doing custom work and restoration. I have been studying and learning all this time. I am still learning, still have a lot to learn, but one thing I won't do is state something as a fact that can't be objectively verified from a number of sources. Opinions are a different matter. Mine are derived from a lot of experience, but opinions vary depending on esthetic considerations and other objectives, skill level, and other situational factors. I try to give reasons for my opinions so that others will know where I am coming from and make their own decisions.
That said, it is a fact that linseed oil darkens a lot over time. There are two mechanisms for this. First, linseed oil continues to react chemically over many years. I can look up the actual chemistry for you if you want, but the point is that it continues to change over time, and becomes darker and darker. I didn't say it would turn the wood black, only darken it severely. The second mechanism is based on the fact that cured linseed oil is a polymer, and at room temperature it is above its glass transition temperature, and is subsequently soft. Dust and dirt that lands on it gets integrated into the finish, and causes further darkening, and this can't be reversed except by removing the finish.
I have seen old floors and church furniture that have turned nearly black from linseed oil and embedded dirt. There is an old formula that antique dealers used for freshening up old furniture: equal amounts of vinegar, turpentine, and linseed oil. There are a couple of variations on this, but they have all fallen into disuse because of the unacceptable darkening from the linseed oil. Now if that's the look you want, by all means go for it, but I myself find other finishes give as good a look and feel and don't have as many drawbacks.
I designed finishes and furniture for a long time. I still design custom finishes for other people and train them to apply them. One of the things I learned early on is the importance of tactile and visual quality of the finish. It's at least half of the commercial appeal of most wood products, and is in large part badly neglected by many woodworkers. A POC with a great finish will sell more easily and bring more money than a beautifully built piece that looks like it was finished with a Hershey bar. Just look in the furniture stores...........
I can give you the exact same look and feel that you describe with a number of different finishes, but the simplest way is to finish with a "Danish oil" "Tung oil finish" (usually with no tung oil), or a wiping varnish. A little Abralon, Scotchbrite, or steel wool, and some dark paste wax will give you the tactile results you require in less than half the time your way will take, and it will age nicely, repair fairly easily, and protect better against wine stains. You won't need to sand the wood with anything finer than 180 grit, and probably no finer than 600 grit on the finish itself if you want a soft, satin finish with a wonderful feel. By sanding the wood to 1500 grit, you are burnishing it, and you will get even better results, especially over time, if you use a product that soaks into the wood a bit, dries hard, and develops a very thin film over the wood that can be sanded or polished to the sheen you want.
Those are the facts that lead to my opinion that there are more suitable finishes than BLO for your purposes. You are welcome to do with them as you will. BLO might be just what you want, even with the characteristics I described, and that's fine with me. I just like for people to have the facts to make informed decisions.
Apart from all that, I THINK chestnut develops a pretty nice patina on its own when exposed to light, and that info could factor into your decision.
Let us know how everything comes out.
Michael R.
Michael, you could have mentioned one other contender with many historical precedents for 'polishing' this rusticated open grained chestnut wine tasting table. What's the chances it'll be set on flagstones or tiles I wonder?
Anyway, if it is set on a stone floor of some sort, or waterproof vynil, etc., the easy care finish I'm thinking of is the no finish finish. Let the wine spill, and the grease from the snacks drop on the surface.
When the staining and greasy marks become unacceptable, draw a bucket of hot water. Add a little vinegar or detergent and slosh it over the top. Scrub it with a stiff bristle brush. Follow up with a bucket of clean water and bit more scrubbing and let it dry. Knock down the fuzzy raised grain with a bit of 150 or 180 grit paper and get it dirty all over again, ha, ha. Slainte.RJFurniture
Richard-
What, my posts aren't long enough already? I do work for a living, you know....
Not a bad idea (from one who lives in a sock!) Depends on the customer, but I could go with it.
And cheers to you.
Michael R.
Well Michael, they are long enough, but they're informative too, so worth the read. I too have to work and I've made a definite effort over the last few months to reduce time spent fruiting about on forums like this-- skim over the stuff that I don't really want to get interested in and only respond to threads that catch my eye with something a bit unusual. From the bottom of my sock, slainte.RJFurniture
Richard, Coming from you, that is quite a compliment. Thank you. I may have a little wider finishing experience, but I doubt I can tell you anything new about much else. To the contrary, I think.
Buy yerself something dark and bubbly, and put it on my tab.
Stay sharp
MichaelR.
Michael - great post...thank you... I love it when myths are dispelled especially by someone who knows what they are talking about :) I appreciate you taking the time.
OK, I'm going to go out and get some Tung/Danish and give it a shot on a sample. I really don't want this chestnut to look like ebony, its just too special, but I do love watching people engage in the touching process...I think its when people finally really understand the beauty of woodwork.
I'll report back on my sample.
Regards
Alison
Alison,
I don't have a lot of experience finishing, but I have been using a Danish Oil finish on my coffee tables. I cover this with 3 coats of wipe-on poly to protect from stains (coffee, wine, whatever). The WOP doesn't add any color or darkness, as far as I can see. I only do the top, not the sides.
Good luck,
yieldmap
It will work either way, but if you use bisquits and white glue you have to let the top sit for a few weeks after glue up ,before smoothing, so as to not risk having the swelling of the bisquits telescoping up to the surface.
Philip
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