I built these Cypress lawn chair’s. Don’t want to turn to dark ugly grey if left unfinished but don’t want to paint. Anyone know of a lasting finish for these? Poly? Thanks, Woodshoplast
Edited 10/26/2005 8:55 am ET by woodshoplast
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Edited 10/26/2005 8:55 am ET by woodshoplast
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Replies
Get a old hunk of that wood.. Use some Olympic transparent stain on it. Throw it in the yard over the winter.. I bet it looks OK next spring.. Not sure where you are at.. But I was thinking rain and snow...
What color is that stain? Is the stain all you put on it? Is it thin or paste? Sorry I never heard of it. Thanks
It is a stain for houses.. I just like the Olympic brand.. Comes in a variety of colors.. Transparent and opaque..It is a oil based stain.. Not sure if they have water based..
Edited 10/26/2005 9:24 pm by WillGeorge
Thanks very much!
hi,
I just finished some black locust patio chairs with Sikkens finish. I think it was developed for boats. Anyway it sprays and brushes well, sheds water great, and is a very good finish. It is a bit pricey at $40-60 / gallon but I am very happy with it.
stevo
Thanks very much!
Woodshop,The Sikkens finish is used by a lot of log cabin builders. They have a web site and will also talk with you. N. Abrams used it on some of his outside furniture. I have had lousy luck with spar varnish and all the other outside finishes, but again, so far very happy with this one.
We are in Wis and get hot sun in the summer, and snow and cold in the winter.thanks again,stevo
We are in Wis and get hot sun in the summer.. Yep into the 70's at least..Just funnin ya...
Thanks to everyone for your responses re outside furniture finishing. Actually I was interested in keeping the chairs smooth as well as avoiding the grey color. I have the Oct 2005 Fine Woodworking and maybe will try that process. Thanks again
It is a bit pricey at $40-60 / gallon Geee I'v seen stuff for boats at 40/60 a quart!
I copied this from the NYWS under Q&A re: Adirondack chairs (I just complete four chairs and two tables using cypress). I was looking for a finish that would last. I found very similar information on the "Wood" magazine website.
Question:
Would you tell us the name of the product you put on the chair at the end for a finish coat and where could we purchase it
Thank you and we really enjoy watching the show and all the help
Jack and Pat Ferrie
Answer:
We used a product boat builders like, called Sikkens and it held up pretty well for a few months. But over time it too deteriorated leading us to the conclusion that leaving cypress, redwood, teak or cedar to age naturally without any finish is a pretty good idea. Everything else we have used will need to be maintained.
There was an article in either FW or Wood Mag. a few months ago about finishing patio furniture the author claimed was near bullet proof. He use several coats of the penetrating epoxy that is normally used for repairing rotting wood then coated that with a polyurethane I believe. I used the pentrating epoxy to weather proof the legs of some fir adirondacks I built about 15 years ago. They sit on the lawn all from early spring to late fall with not deterioration. I just coated the six inches nearest the ground.
Understood. However, the original poster was not concerned about preservation. He simply wanted to prevent the furniture from turning "to dark ugly grey if left unfinished." I don't know whether epoxy would satisfy that requirement.
I saw that too and I have made a few boats.. Well, just one...Marine finishes are the BEST but very expensive...
The epoxy will assist in the prevention of the wood turning grey, but it still must be over coated with marine spar varnish, such as Epifanes. The marine spar has a high price per quart--at least $20, but since it is the ONLY varnish that has a prayer of working in the sun, it is worth the money. Just because it says spar varnish doesn't mean it is any good--in addition to Epifanes, other manufacturers are Interlux, Pettit, and Woolsey. If it is sold in Home Depot, Lowes or Menard, etc. it is NOT quality marine spar varnish. As the This Old House answer suggests, it is really a good idea to adjust to realistic expectations and learn to love the look of naturally grey wood for outdoor furniture.
The article I mentioned was in the Oct. 2005 Fine Woodworking. As I said he used several coats of a penetrating epoxy , but, instead of a poyurethane, as I mistakenlly said, he finished off with Epifane marine varnish. The probable reason that the Epifane flaked off in the earlier posts was that standing moisture on arms etc. and under the legs soaks into the wood and undermines the bond. The epoxy seals the wood and prevents moisture absorption.
I am also a subscriber to the let it get grey school of thought. I have teak on the patio, let it get grey and wash it off occasionally. It looks great.
I am also a subscriber to the let it get grey school of thought.She looks better every day!
As I've noted in other threads, the longest lasting outdoor clear finish is proving to be the #4 or #5 HIGH_GLOSS OIL BASE from Sherwin-Williams or Olympic, with no pigment added. It looks cloudy, but dries perfectly clear. Naturally, for the longest lasting exterior finish, you must be satisfied with the highest gloss you can get. This goes for pigmented paints as well. The silca or pigment flattening agents leave a microscopic texture to the exposed surface, which eventually begins to break-down the film.
Do not believe the salesman ... the UV inhibitors are in the base ... not in the pigment. Lowes may have a lock on the Olympic brand, and they have the best price. Behlens has also been used with success, it's just the most costly in my neighborhood. I have natural wood entry doorways that are in their eighth year of southerly exposure and rain impingment, without discoloration or refinishing. Several are in their 12th year, but under overhangs and minimal direct sun.
I never had a marine or spar varnish last beyond three years ..... they are all designed to be a (soft) flexible finish, not the hard gloss that survives Mother Nature! Good luck,
John in Texas
Are you saying this Olympic (poly?) that you're recommending is better than Olympic stain or Silkkens Cetol SRD semi transparent product? I think the Silkkens product is an Epoxy. Is it also better than Epifanes marine varnish?
How is it applied, with a brush or thinned and wiped?
I have read a lot trying to figure best approach and am more confused than when I started asking questions. Thanks.
This is really a pretty dubious claim, though I haven't seen any serious testing. And the pigment does provide UV protection. Its not protection for the coating, its for the wood. When the wood underneath a clear finish begins to deteriorate the clear coating begins to lose adhesion, and its time to strip and start again. Paint is clearly the superior protection for outdoor wood.
Still, unless you want a hobby keeping the furniture finished, let it go to grey or keep it out of the sun.
What tails___ is suggesting has been VERY highly recommended and tested (for a number of years for longevity) on the Wood Magazine board. It is not not poly--it IS paint. You should get the OIL BASED PAINT BASE that would be used to mix the darkest exterior paint IF a tint was added. The guys at the store will tell you you can't use it but it is very durable.Gretchen
The former host of wood magazine finishing forum tested this clear paint base for three years in his yard in Texas along with several others.The only one to last more than one year was the clear paint base. It is the base with the highest number (4 or 5) used for the darkest color out door oil based paint. RegardsJerry
Sorry, but I had to re-read my post! I thought I had blown it! I never mentioned Poly... anything (I don't use poly...). We're talking High-Gloss Oil Base, tint-base ... PAINT .... without the tint ... as others have now posted. As I said, I have tested it, repeatedly, 'cause it continues to work ... way beyond all expectations ... believe me ... but only the one that is recommended for the very darkest of colors, and only in high-gloss. The salesmen will all tell you that it won't work, but it does. Try it yourself .... it might be possible to buy just a quart ..... and at this cost, what have you got to loose?
No-one is holding a gun to your head ..... only sharing our "best practices". You can blow a fortune on marine finishes, if you want, that have to be renewed every other year if you're lucky, or they never get very hard and often stick to your clothes when you sit on the lawn chair! Try it out yourself.
John in Texas
You were good to go. Someone else in answer to your post was the "poly" person.Gretchen
I checked at Lowe's for the Olympic product that was recommended. I didn't talk to a salesperson because I wanted to know what I was looking for first. I found the semi transparent product but it seems to come in colors as well. I didn't see any reference to #4 or #5. What should I be looking for and where are those numbers found? Also someone mentioned building Adirondack Chairs for a living. What would the ball park sales price be? re: built of Cypress 7/8" thick, glued and stainless steel screws, screw holes plugged and sanded smooth?
What you are looking for is an oil paint base. Olympic only makes this product for Lowe's. I called Olympic to find out where I could find it.There are more old drunkards than old doctors. Ben Franklin
It can be anybody's EXTERIOR OIL PAINT BASE--what they (the paint guys) take off the shelf to add tint to make an exterior color paint. AND you want the base that they would use to make the darkest color (black,dark green, etc). You want to just buy the BASE. They will tell you it isn't any good that way. Don't believe them. It does not necessarily need to be Olympic.Gretchen
Gretchen, here's the article you and others are referring to. Jim Kull was the host of Wood Magazine's Finishing Forum. He wrote this about four-five years ago. I have three doors coated with the "clear paint". One is almost five years old and is in almost perfect shape. Another is three years old and the one on my house is coming up on two years. No problem with any of them. They are in better shape than many other doors in my neighborhood with are more recently finished.
OUOTE
In a recent post my friend, Steve, made reference to my tests of doggie sprinkling on exterior finishes. I figure after almost a year of testing it is time to post some interesting discoveries.
As a preface, allow me to set the stage. Almost daily there is a posting about clear, exterior finishes for doors, chairs, signs and such. Responses run the gamut from diehard marine finishes to apply a coat of primer and then paint. Each of these has a bit of a problem. Marine finishes are not always the easiest to find and it grieves me to think of a lovely oak, teak, mahogany, fir, redwood or similar nice wood door painted in mauve goop.
Bob from Fl inspired me with his continuing and accurate statements about the failings of a clear coat and the advantages of a good quality exterior paint. I decided after lots of reflection that he really was right but there was always the picture of mauve in my mind. Sooooooooo, how could one take advantage of his advice and yet capitalize on the beauty of a nice wood.
I began to reflect on the characteristics of paint. Now, comes the boredom.
There were several things I knew about paint. Exterior paints contain a mildewcide and a fungicide that a varnish does not. The best quality paints will contain a UV protectorant and trans-oxide pigments in very high percentages. Almost all paint is custom mixed by the store. The retailer maintains a large supply of base products that are used to achieve the desired color. There are generally 4 base products and the specific one for your paint is determined by your color choice. These base products are either named or numbered. They are named pastel, deep, tint and neutral. If numbered it is cleverly 1, 2, 3 and 4 with the exception of Olympic who numbers 1, 2, 3 and 5. Olympic is unaware that 4 comes before 5. Pastel and/or 1 is virtually a pure white and used for the lightest of colors. The others are slightly color altered from white and more translucent than pastel. These are used for succeedingly deeper colors. All of this comes to neutral, 4 and/or 5. These are clear and used for the darkest colors. In the can they are somewhat opaque but dry more or less clear.
Now comes the testing. I bought 4 oak exterior doors. Each door was given one coat of the same MinWax Stain. On 3 of the doors, I applied 2 coats of "base" to the 6 sides of each door (3 coats on the top and bottom edges). Each of these three doors had a different type of exterior neutral, 4 or 5 base. The fourth door was finished with a consumer "spar" varnish from my local friendly paint/hardware store. The bases for the 3 painted doors were an exterior semi-gloss acrylic, an exterior semi-gloss oilbased polyurethane floor paint and a semi-gloss oilbased trim and siding paint.
The doors were set up, slightly inclined, in mostly direct sunlight under a pecan tree in the backyard. My wife just loved that one. Daily, the sprinklers managed to hit the doors. The birds in the pecan tree used the doors for target practice. And, yes, the dogs did anoint the doors on a regular basis. My blonde Cocker, Zazu, was particularly enamored with the doors. Over the course of the test the doors experienced lots of Texas sunlight, rain and snow. The temperature went from below freezing to over 100. The advantage to the inclined position of the doors was the snow, ice, water from the sprinklers and the rain tended to collect in the raised panel areas. I feel these doors were subjected to far more severe environmental conditions than would be expected from normal use.
The results were interesting. The "spar" varnish looked fabulous but after about 2 weeks it began to develop small cracks. In rapid order the door began to turn black, started to mold and the smell was enough to knock a buzzard off of a manure wagon. The waterbased acrylic is milky in the can like a waterbased poly. It dried to a more or less water clear surface but was a bit cloudy. It tended to wash out the stain a bit. Over time it became cloudier and ultimately become almost white. But, it remained solid and protected the wood. The oil based bases are also a bit opaque in the can but dried to a clear finish that is almost identical to a spar varnish - they added an amber tone to the doors. Both the poly floor paint and the trim and siding paint remained "clear" over the entire test period.
The testing came to an end with a bit of encouragement. My wife said something clever like, "Get those damned doors out of the backyard?". She does not understand science. The floor poly had some minor checking and a thinned coat of the same base over the surface made that disappear. The door with the oilbased trim and siding paint was perfect other than it had lost a bit of the gloss.
So, I am with Bob - paint the door. My preference is the oilbased products. If you are predisposed to a waterbased use an acrylic rather than latex.
One thing you will find when you go out shopping for your product is a lack of knowledge on the part of the salesperson. Not many of these folk are aware that their neutral or 4 base will dry clear. If you want to have some fun, spring it on them. They will suggest you are full of Donkey Dust. Ask them to shake a can and put some on a stir stick. Dry it and voila, it is clear.
Jim Kull
END QUOTEHowie.........
Good post for all to see.Gretchen
What are the steps involved in using the exterior oil paint base? I am considering putting it on a redwood project. I live in Los Angeles so the sun is a constant and rain is occassional at best. I was planning on using the method described in Oct 05 issue but upon this seeing this thread I have reconsidered. Any tricks for application etc. would be appreciated.
Thanks for all the info.
It is essentially paint. Paint it on.Gretchen
Great reply! Just paint it on. Sooo many think this is too good to be true, but I've got solid wood entries in natural finish, all varieties of exposure in OK, Ark, Tenn, and here in Texas that are exceeding even my expectations. I used Spar and Liberty exterior oils for 20 years, and all needed touch-up after three or less years. I have some rainy Arkansas exposures that are now eight years with no change, and one with twelve years and only a slight lifting streak below the nail they drove in to hang the Christmas wreath! They're still happy!
Good luck to all .... never pass up the opportunity to try something new. Life's an experiment . don't let it go stale!
John in Texas
Nothing special. As others have said--paint it on. Be sure it is well stirred to mix in the UV inhibitors and mildewcide. It can even be thinned 50/50 and wiped on but be sure to stir it every couple of minutes. Howie.........
I have been dealing with the exact thing you ask about. I built some Adirondack chairs this past summer and encountered finishing problems. I stained the chairs with Minwax cherry stain which is interior stain and was used as a colorant only. A couple months later the chairs developed, what I've since learned, was black mildew blotches. I washed the blotches with a bleach/water solution and applied a second coat of stain. At this point I knew I needed a better solution. The article in FWW was good but it required way too much additional work and expense considering this is lawn furniture. I built a couple test chairs on which I used different finishes. One chair made out of Red Cedar has Behr Premium Weatherproofing Wood Sealer and Finish on it. It's silicone enhanced and water based with an oil formula-figure that out? It's really holding up quite well. The two negatives I've found are; 1, you have to be careful to apply it evenly and swiftly because you cannot brush over or cover dry areas without it showing later, and 2 it has a silicone, sort of waxy feel to it, although that has lessened some. It still repels water and looks very good.
The second chair is White Oak with two coats of Man O War Marine Varnish on it. That chair looks great and the finish is holding up very well.
I currently have sample pieces of Cypress, White Oak, and Red Cedar out in the elements with various finishes on them.
Attached are photos of the black mildew blotches, the red cedar chair, the white oak chair, and some of the test pieces as they looked originally. I don't have up to date photos of how the test pieces look now. I can tell you the Cypress pieces that were left natural look terrible. They are faded and covered with black, ugly blotches.
There are more old drunkards than old doctors. Ben Franklin
What do you get for those chairs? I got some Cypress cheap, dirt cheap. Don't want to base my price on the cost of that wood because the next will probably be substantially higher. Have looked on internet and see prices from $99 to over $500. Building these chairs like the one Norm Abrams built in Popular Woodworking. Milling Cypress down to 7/8" and using stainless steel screws.
I've been charging $200 for an unfinished chair. I sell a set of two chairs, two footstools, and a small 20" x 20" table with a coat of stain for $600. I use coated screws found at HD, glue everything with Titebond II, and triple bolt joints using galvanized bolts. I also add a piece underneath going from left to right to stop any side to side wiggle. This piece is about 3 1/2" x 7/8" and screwed in from the left and right side of the leg about the spot your rear end sits. The screw holes may be visible in the photo.
BleuThere are more old drunkards than old doctors. Ben Franklin
by the way....everywhere I've seen Adirondack chairs they are $200 pieces of junk. I've seen them made out of pressure treated and Eastern Pine.There are more old drunkards than old doctors. Ben Franklin
Thanks very much. I can't pull up your picture for some reason.
Thanks again.
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