Here’s a link to a story about how the Harrisburg, PA school district lost a $228k verdict over a table saw accident. Basically, student was cutting a dado, the blade guard had been removed. Kickback hit him in the stomach, he steadied himself by grabbing the table, and lost fingers.
http://www.pennlive.com/newsflash/pa/index.ssf?/base/news-31/1129284540302220.xml&storylist=penn
Replies
"In its appeal, the district argued that it should have been immune from the suit because the saw was not part of the district's "real property" because it could be removed, even though it was bolted to the floor and hard-wired." Sheesh!
"and that the jury should not have been permitted to hear testimony regarding the teacher's negligent supervision." Yeah, right
This is so sad.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Forest.. I have two teacher in my Family.. One teaches Kindergarten and her hubbie is a Professor that teaches Education for teachers.. All I know is I babysitting ALOT! I just have two to watch and one just had stitches when her older sister pushed here into the table corner!
Very unfortunate for all the people involved. I had wood shop in high school and we were not allowed to use the table saw or the rad saw. I think maybe the advanced classes where. The thought of 25 testosterone addled teenagers around a table saw is a bit nerve wracking.
Troy
"25 testosterone addled teenagers around a table saw " Well, that left me out. :-) :-)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
"25 testosterone addled teenagers around a table saw " Well, that left me out. :-) :-)
"Thinking about 25 PMS addled teenagers around a table saw " Just scared me to death.
Good, better, best never let it rest until your good is better & your better best.
Edited 10/14/2005 10:52 pm by OriginalBart
I have never posted on this site. I enjoy reading and learning from the many people that share information here. This subject is very near and dear to my heart. I have been a carpentry teacher for sixteen years in a public school system and have experienced very few accidents in my construction classes. I feel very fortunate! We use the table saw every day. I cover safety every day. I may have a serious accident on Monday, but it will not be a lack of safety training or testing. Power tools are dangerous no matter who is operating them. I find that my children have a healthy fear of the table saw, unlike most adult wood workers. I feel for that poor teacher, he will lose his job in a period of time even if he has done a great job for years.<!----><!----><!---->
wonder if shop teacher was suspended/fired? probably not. evidently did not bother to supervise students or make sure operation was done safely. I read of no horsing around. just sounds like poor technique and probably little if any safety instruction.<!----><!---->
What a poor statement! Please be careful in your work the finger you lose may be your own.
This was meant to be posted to all. Maybe I need computer training.
Edited 10/15/2005 12:00 am ET by luke
Edited 10/15/2005 12:05 am ET by luke
I am presently a woodworking teacher in a public H.S. in Indiana. It scares me to death every time i take my students into the shop to work. I try very hard to give them proper instruction and supervision on each of the power tools but many of the students won't listen or pay attention they just want to go out and work. I have 25 in my beg. woods now and most are very immature freshmen who sleep during the safety films, refuse to read the book and hide behind the few paying attention during the demo's. If I don't allow students to use the power tools they will not take the class and we all loose. This is an elective and if not enough students sign up then they don't offer the classes. When I first started teaching (73) the nonacademic students were thilled to get to work in the shop as opposed to doing book work. Now they would rather sleep or visit as work. I am so frustrated that it is time for me to retire. When I go, the shop will not last 2 years and the program will be dropped. What a sad situation for all. Sorry to vent on you. PS: I have had a student loose a thumb on the table saw in class, not a thing I want to go through again.
I feel your pain; many of my students have not been interested. I have been blessed in my career; the good kids have far exceeded the bad. I have been burnt out one time and that is because of the public school administrative crap! I have had the pleasure of watching children grow into adults and become productive people. I have made more money on the side, but have made life long friendships with many good young men and women. The problems that we all have with poor students all can be traced back to the home.
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Luke
I feel sorry for that lad, and more for the teacher.
I belonged to a school woodwork club for 4 years. The safety instructions consisted of a few stark warnings from the Jesuit priest. During this time a few hundred lads went through that club and there was not one accident on that Delta cabinet saw-and certainly there would have been no question of law suits and lawyer parties. Nowadays everyone is super sensitive to safety issues, fingers are being cut like tree prunings and the lawyers are like vultures-what has happened to common sense? It is a funny old world.Philip Marcou
Nowadays everyone is super sensitive to safety issues, fingers are being cut like tree prunings and the lawyers are like vultures-what has happened to common sense? It is a funny old world.
simple answer..?? was told "common sense can't be legislated for" when I asked that very same question... I'm a wireman to trade... never a day goes by that I don't need to use a knife for something... now suddenly my competency isn't to be trusted... there's hell to pay for if I dare use the knife without wearing kevlar gloves... this, despite proving that the gloves put both the job and my hands in greater risk...
somebody needs to get a grip before this gets any worse...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
The problems that we all have with poor students all can be traced back to the home. Not always.. I was one! When a kid.. I was bored I think.. Not a bad kid.. Just Lazy.. My parents were NOT the cause!However after the Army I went back to College and got a Engineering degree.. I loved school THEN!
You may be correct. I may be correct. Who can say? Let me restate, most problems that I see can be traced back to the home. Some parents over indulge, some parents under indulge and some parents do nothing at all. Public and private schools can’t teach because they can’t discipline little Johnny or Jane. Just to today I referred a student to the office for throwing nails in the shop. The administration decided I needed to call the parents. I called the parents to discuss Johnny throwing nails in the shop. I was informed that I was being unrealistic, it was no big deal. What do you think the administration or the parents will say when Johnny hurts someone?
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Luke
I was informed that I was being unrealistic, it was no big deal. What do you think the administration or the parents will say when Johnny hurts someone?
That's exactly what I mean. The parents don't seem too concerned....until their dear little Johnny gets hurt....then BRING THE LAWYERS!!!!!
Oh well, nothing we can do about it. Just live, learn, and be as careful as we all can be.....sigh
I was just saying mine were not the fault.. I was..
I understand completely and while I love woodworking and kids, it would terrify me to be responsible for a class full of teenagers in a shop full of machinery with moving sharp objects. I took general shop in 7th and 8th grade (late 60's) and my shop teacher (Mr. Shockley) is one of the few teachers names I remember from that era (or is it eon?). I was too young to really have an appreciation for the stress he must have been under at the time but, in retrospect, I think I do now. I certainly have a better understanding now of his demeanor then. With funding levels in schools today, many schools are lucky to have shops, much less adequate assistants to help the teacher monitor what is going on at multiple workstations. None of us posting here actually know the facts regarding this particular event so, those who assess blame to a particular party do so in ignorance. This makes it an opinion and, like belly buttons, everybody has one.
Sadly, many parents today believe that schools are just a big day care center. I have seen it when my kids were going through school and I hear about it from my daughter who is a band and choir director for the entire spectrum of school age kids (K - 12).
I have had many kids that were (are) interested and it is truly rewarding to have them come back and let us know what our classes ment to them then & now. As for the big classes or small ones, since we are elective classes, the students choose which ones to sign up for and when. When students are scheduled for classes in late winter, if we don't have at least 10 enrolled the class is dropped and if we don't have at least 5 classes our job is either elimenated (can you tell I don't teach spelling) or if our licence allows we have other classes or duties assigned. Last year I was given a class of severe & profound handicapped students to work with. What a challenge and they were very dissapointed we didn't have it this year.
I am a little confused by the story - How can you have a guard on if dadoing - since most guards on tablesaws are attached to a splitter - those must come off if you are going to pass wood over the saw but not rip because of the splitter. Is another guide/guard needed during dado operations? I am sure it is very obvious to fellow WW'ers what may have happened but having not used a dado before, I want to learn here what went wrong and what type of guard must be in place.
There are several very good guards (no splitter) that are mounted on an 'overhead arm' assembly. It is mounted well behind the blade, enough to dado a 12" wide board without the board hitting the mounting bracket. Unfortunately, to properly see where you are starting the dado cut, the guard has to be out of the way. Now I'll talk from experience (37 years as a shop teacher) Newspaper articles are generally unreliable, especially if the general tone of the paper is anti-teacher. Was the student running the dado in the middle of a narrow board with one end of the board against the fence?? Was he using a sled to control the wood (sounds like no), was he cutting a dado on the end of a narrow board?? Think of the situation. If the student WAS properly instructed AND the teacher was standing right behind him, this type of accident happens so quickly that the teacher could not react quickly enough to stop the accident from happening. The scariest thing a shop teacher can hear is a student saying.. 'My dad is a carpenter and he showed me how to do it. I don't need any instructions from you. That's when I take a deep breath, count to 20 and tell the student he has two choices... listen and learn or listen to the sound of the class working without him. I then explain that hopefully, his father showed him the proper AND SAFE way to do it, but in either case, I WILL show him how to do it carefully and safely. SawdustSteve
The student that I had that cut his thumb off was not making a dado cut. He was ripping a piece of poplar to 2" wide. He was using a craftsman 10" contractors saw with the saw and guard on and in use. He was trying to rip a 10" long board that didn't have the edge against the fence, the blade was set too high and the board stopped most of the way through, he tried to pull it back out of the saw while it was still running. I still don't know how he got his thumb under the guard but he did. The family sued the school corporation and lost. In Indiana there is a law about contributory(sp) neglegence: If you contribute to your own accident then you can only collect dammages for the % of the accident you did not contribute to. In our case the jury decided the instruction was proper and the student was responsible for the accident. Even though I was cleared, I still feel guilty and fear another student will get hurt because I didn't do a good enough job in instructing them and supervising them. We do have a Rockwell cabinet table saw that the guard is made in such a way that you don't need to use the splitter to use the guard there are several other guard manufacturers that dont need or use a splitter.
Hi rcraw,
My Dad taught shop for over 35 yrs. so I read your posts with interest. He had some of the same opinions as yours toward the end of his career in the Charlotte, NC school system. Never an accident with a tablesaw but he did have two girls who were horseplaying (that's right, girls, not boys) and as one of them chased the other around a workbench, one of them fell and hit her head on the bench vise. Woke up in the hospital. She was alright.
They always had Powermatic machines in his shops. Matter of fact, when they sell them off after cancelling all the shop programs, I'll be first in line to buy them. Take care, Ed
There are many overhead blade gaurds on the market that range in cost from $200 to $400. These are extremely effective. They are independant of the splitter and are only in the way for the narrowest of rips. On my saw if I am ripping narrower than 3/4" I have to flip up half the gaurd, which leaves the other the blade at least partially covered. (I have a Unigaurd) Another posternoted that the gaurd can some how interfere with the line of sight while dadoing; I can't see how. Mine has a lot of use on it and the plastic is not all that clear anymore. But it has never mattered I can see the blade well enough and have no need to see it better. This style gaurd is required in industry (OSHA). Why a school wouldn't have it it rediculous. If this saw had an overhead gaurd I doubt the injury would have occured.
Mike
On our Boy Scout campouts we always had an Axe Yard set up. It was roped off and no one could enter the yard without permission from an adult leader and without having first earned their woodsman merit badge. And, only one person could be in the yard at any time.
In other words, they had to be trained to use the tools and had to have adult supervision.
Woodworking classes for children should consider similar constraints. In my books, anyone under 18 is a child.
Once, right after I had finished teaching a woodsman merit badge class, I (the Scoutmaster) let a folding knife close on my finger causing a big cut. The troop voted 10 demerits for me, which I had to work off. Talk about being embarrassed!
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
PMS! Geee My wife and her three daughters has it at the same time! I went to a motel.... Every Month!
And the teacher if he only has 25 students is probably lucky. Most HS classes are in 30+ range these days. Add to that that the teacher is trying to help each student and there is going to be a majority of the class working on their projects using various tools.
Also, if it is at like when I went to wood class, we spent the first couple of classes being familiarized with the various tools and what the safety issues were and had to bring back a signed waiver from our parents. I still remember (40 years later) the one safety movie where the guy is impaled with a cutoff kicked back from the table saw. Some of the safety movies we saw scared the Sh*t out of us! A couple of kids that had just come from lunch showed us what they had had.
There does need to be some personal accountability, but if a student is shown proper procedures, safety controls and violates those and gets hurt, I cannot see how that would be any ones fault but their own.
If anyone here who owns a woodworking business hired an "apprentice" and showed them the proper way to work the machinery and what safety practices to follow and verbally explained the hazards and dangers in operating the machinery in an unsafe manner and then had that person sign a document stating they had had this information and understood it and the shop rules and then did something like this kid did, would you be held responsible?
By the way, I have a sone in 7th grade and the HS here DOES have a wood shop and he wants to to take the class when he gets there. However, he is also learning from me and I really stress the safety issues (as well as the proper use and care) of each tool as I use it. He has to recite that back to me before he can use any tool - with or without(rarely) my supervision(and so far no power cutting tools are allowed without supervision)
1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
wonder if shop teacher was suspended/fired? probably not. evidently did not bother to supervise students or make sure operation was done safely. I read of no horsing around. just sounds like poor technique and probably little if any safety instruction.
I don't know what might have happened to the teacher. I happen to work in Harrisburg (would never live there) and can tell you that it's an urban school district that's been designated as "distressed," meaning that the state has some jurisdiction over it and the city dissolved the school board and took over management a couple years ago. Anyone who gets up in the morning knowing what he or she is going to face when the day starts in a Harrisburg city school is a hero in my book. Besides, the shop teacher was probably breaking up a drug deal at the jointer at the time of the accident.
And we now continue to wonder about the following two items:
1) Schools abandoning wood and metal shops.
2) Why Europe doesn't allow dado blades on table saws.
Hmmm???
Don't say Europe. What country?
Hilmar
"Don't say Europe. What country?
Hilmar"
Why not say Europe? The European Parliment issued the Machinery Directive which became mandatory in 1995 for all European Union member states desiring to sell or install any machine on the European Common Market to bear the CE mark and comply with the standard requirements thereof. As I recall, there are now 25 member states of the European Union.
Steve
And 20 missing.
Hilmar
Edited 10/15/2005 8:38 pm ET by h12721
Schools abandoning wood and metal shops.
Gee by me no Sewing classes cus a girl got stabbed yith a needle on that old 'Singer'
2) Why Europe doesn't allow dado blades on table saws.
actually... they do... provided your arbour's long enough to take the blade, and the saw's fitted with proper shaw guards ans your stack is limited to a max width of somewhere around 15mm, ya can dado to yer hearts content.... provided....
you're a one man shop...
eurocrat legislation says that all machinery in a multi-person shop must comply with CE certification. Part of that reg is that the saw must be braked to ensure the blade comes to a standstill inside 10 secs from shut-down. Manufacturers have avoided the whole additional mass of a dado blade issue by ensuring that their arbours are only long enough to take one single conventional blade....
Debating the point has led to quite a few flame wars....Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Mike,
I understand that Blair has just been extolling the virtues of accepting risk rather than excessive legislation. Reckon you could find a link to this pertinant comment?
Dave
How old would a student in this class be. We in New Zealand are in the process of taking all but the very basic hand tools out of technology classes. And the system wonders why we are short of tradesmen. Another thing that is different in NZ is that we have a little thing called personnel responsiblity that is being eroded and ACC (accident compensation corporation) It is like a national insurance company that pays out on accidents.
are in the process of taking all but the very basic hand tools out of technology classes..It is crazy... Gee.. I have a friend that lost a eye using a screwdriver.. Well, not using it.. Just in his hand and walked into a door or something..You can not protect everyone from everything..
Cripes!
You know, that's what I find so disgusting these days. SUE someone! Hell, I'm sorry the kid got hurt. I'm sorry he lost fingers on the saw. IT HAPPENS! He probably shouldn't have been using the saw, but at high school age, I think one should be capable! Anyway, that's not the point. Why is it that when anyone gets injured today, the first thought is who or how to sue for damages!
The kid screwed up! I'm sorry about it, but that's what happens when you make a mistake. Happens everyday! Why should we all wind up paying for it. Now they will probably take shop out of the school, and that will spread accross the country. Chalk up another win for the lawyers, another loss for everyone else.
Damn
A child (young man is a stretch) lost his fingers operating a piece of industrial machinery. Dadoing no less. I spent a good year with my helper with near constant supervision and long discussions reguarding safety. I don't know that there is a way to safely teach a class of 30 kids how to be safe in a shop. Also it sounds like the shop had a regular splitter/ gaurd combo. That is not OSHA. My overhead gaurd is effective during dado operations. If a comercial shop must had overhead gaurds so should a school.
I have three children and I don't think I would trust them to the school district when it comes to using industrial machinery.
Mike
I agree.. Maybe the School (our taxes) should pay the medical bill IF the parents do not have medical insurance.. But that is all..
I feel bad for the parties involved. There is so much wrong with industrial arts in public schools today-the ones that still have it. I believe that if it weren't for my high school shop teacher, I wouldn't have seeked out a career in woodworking.
If memory serves, they only allowed something like 8-10 students in advanced shop classes because of safety concerns with power tools. Plus advanced classes needed approval from the instructor. I have nothing but great memories from those classes. I don't ever recall any accidents in that shop. I'm sure a lot has changed since the 80's.
Its too bad that shop classes are more a place for babysitting than learning a valuable trade.
I took shop class all four years of high school. The first two were actual cabinetmaking courses, the junior and senior years were independent study, where the shop teacher let me build furniture for customers, working independently during class time. He even let me come back and use the shop after I graduated for the same purpose. Can you imagine them even contemplating that today with all of the liability issues! This was in Michigan in the late 70's.
That's a lose/lose situation and is really a shame for the kid. I hate trivial lawsuits that cost taxpayers money...this one sounds pretty legit and the school's defense was incredibly lame. It's too bad that people who aren't responsible for the negligence end up footing the bill.
With a finding of negligence, there has to be more to the story. I'm a former woodworking instructor and work as a safety consultant to vocational teachers. Many teachers, competent or not, are poorly prepared to face a deposition. Operating a table saw with a dado set isn't a beginner's task. There would be numerous safety and procedural lessons that would predicate this type of operation. A teacher that knows their responsibilities would have written documentation of all of those lessons, who was there, what was taught, why and how the lessons were evaluated. Simply saying that, you taught this or covered that, won't stand up in court.
From the article, we don't know any of the particulars in this accident and can only speculate about what happened. Accidents can happen despite thorough training, proper guarding, appropriate procedure and direct supervision. If it was evident that these things were in place, documented and supported by observable and anecdotal information, it's unlikely that a defence would be based on moveable, real property. A learning institution should establish and enforce the highest standard in safety. A teacher is responsible for the health and safety of other peoples children. The rules and procedures have to be firmly established and followed. There has to be serious consequences for students that don't follow the rules, testosterone or not.
If one of my children was seriously injured in a classroom, there would be some hard questions to answer. If it was obvious that there was improper or inadequate training, lack of supervision or lack of control in the class, you can bet there would be a lawsuit. In this case a student sustained a debilitating, life long injury. The court's decision ruled that there was negligence. If there was proper training, guarding and supervision, they weren't able to prove it in court. The lawsuit may have helped to prevent any of our children from being injured in a poorly run classroom. I think we should all be glad that there is a way to hold schools liable when they don't meet their responsibilities.
well said.
My dad was also a shop teacher for 27 years. One finger cut on the bandsaw in his career. He had some talented students (Now his very good friends) make grandfather clocks and even a prize winning violin. The first safely lesson wasn't a video, it was him hitting the moving tablesaw blade with a long dowel and saying this is what happens when you screw around in here.
He taught in a time of corporal punishment and had a very large paddle to handle kids when they got out of line. They had to salute the flag and lean over the tablesaw and the goal was to see if my dad could knock them over the tablesaw with one hit. (back pockets were emptied of cushioning material of course. :) The class usually cheered and heckled yelling "Git him!" You had to sign the paddle when you got it. Funny how the signatures were the people hes formed the longest bonds with over the years, the ones who came to his retirement party and share the best stories and some of which became very skilled at their craft. At no point in his career did a parent ever side with their kid over him if they even dared to tell them what happened. Those that did, usually got another tune up at home for screwing around in class and didn't do it again. Even those that didn't get into the arts in life thank him for cracking them once or twice because that's exactly what they needed. He got out when the nickel and dime politics came into play and he wasn't able to run his shop heavy handed as it required with the kids to stay safe while enjoying his job helping talented kids show their full potential. I remember working on my middle school projects in his shop even on the tablesaw under his watchful eye learning from the start (having it drilled into me every second) to respect the machinery. To this day at 79 he still hounds me about being smart and doing things safely, never working on machines when I'm tired or my head isn't completely in it, and no I don't have a guard on my tablesaw. It's a different world now and unfortunately its effecting the industrial arts.
On that note I'd had one incident on my tablesaw that a lost a spacer when cutting a box lid off and it hit the blade and shot into my stomach. (I didn't have it taped to the box) I had it on video in the garage and showed him and the first thing he said was good job you didn't lose control of the piece and finished the cut. Which I then calmly shut the saw off clutched my stomach yelling "Mother F^&%^$!" Then he gave a chuckle and said you aren't gonna do that again are you. And he followed up with his usual speech "I told you always respect the machine and pay attention to what your doing." Every time he's in town working in the shop with me still with a careful eye on every cut never a missed opportunity to remind me to pay attention to what I'm doing. Always a teacher.
What a heartwarming story to read. Your dad is a hero. Mine was a police officer and was a Vietnam trooper with PTSD. He was also my inspiration and is to those days.
A table saw is for ripping and that's quite enough. When you ask it to do other stuff, that's when you're courting disaster.
A router can do everything a stacked dado can and do it a lot more safely.
Never feed wood into a stationary machine with bare hands. Ever. Use a push shoe or push stick.
My middle school was attached to the highschool and we had the same teacher all the way through high-school. He was professional, patient and really strict. There were rules and he enforced them. Most of the machines were Oliver or Yates American. There were yellow lines on the floor around each machine,if someone was operating a machine no one was allowed to cross the line. All the machines had their safety equipment such as it was in the sixties. There was of course no dust collection other than a broom and a pan and we got proficient at both. Also being the sixties, break a rule get a smack!
We were instructed in hand tools and that is mostly what we used. The first thing we did was to learn to square a board. You got a board, a back saw,a rip saw,, a #5 plane and a block plane. You worked on it until it was perfectly square in all ways or a pile of shavings . If you ended up with shavings you got another board. Powertools didn't get used until you got into projects that were maybe too long to rip by hand or too difficult to flatten with a plane. You didn't use power tools at first anyway until you had some experience around them.
Woodshop was my best class and more than a half century and still 10 fingers later every dime I ever made was working with wood!
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