Hi all. I was wanting to try the use of water-based dye on my latest project as the first layer of the finish. From what I have read so far, it was not clear to me whether I should apply a dewaxed shellac sealcoat between the dye stain and the mahogany stain. I am using a light oak water-based dye and General Finishes mahogany oil based stain. After that, I will use sealcoat, wood filler, sealcoat, gel stain, sealcoat, and polyurathane finishes.
So the question is, should I use a sealcoat between the dye and the mahogany stain?
Replies
What kind of wood are you finishing? Sounds like an open pored wood, since you mention filler. Is that right? What style is the item, and what kind of overall look do you have in mind in the end?
As I count your schedule you seem to have 1 dye step, and three different pigmented stain/toner steps (filler is typically tinted to act as a stain). That can work, but there should be a specific purpose for each step.
Finally, why polyurethane? There are better varnish choices available if you aren't planing to walk on the object you are finishing.
It is mahogany. It is a coffee table with cabriole legs which I hand carved ball and claw feet. The filler is to fill the pores in the mahogany. Yes, the filler will be tinted (burnt ember). The choice of polyurethane was based on advice of Peter Gedrys of Fine Woodworking. I actually used these steps on a buffet I made last year (minus the dye), and it turned out quite well. I had read a couple articles that suggested the dye to add even more depth to the finish. Which leads me back to the original question. Should there be an isolation layer between the dye and the stain such as dewaxed shellac sealcoat?
You have to test it on scrap as was mentioned. I usually like to seal the yellow dye layer on mahogany. It gives a few more golden highlights in the final finish. The mahogany stain will then give the red brown "mahogany" color. You will in a sense be creating some "blotches" that enhance the mahogany considerably. Then sealed lightly again, the dark pore filler will add some depth. I'm not at all sure you need the gel stain after that--let your tests tell you that--it could be that so many pigment layers wouild begin to obscure the grain. As far as top coats, I'd prefer a non-polyurethane varnish. It's a bit clearer, easier to rub out to an even sheen, and for coffee table use every bit durable enough. Behlen Rockhard or Waterlox (in any of several sheens) would either one be very tough very nice top coats for a darkish mahogany finish.
ok, cool. I am experimenting at this moment. I'll look into the varnish. Thanks.
Ok, so I experimented, and it looks like sealing the dye layer with sealcoat before the stain is the best way to go. Now I have another question. As I mentioned, this is for a coffee table with cabriole legs with hand carved ball and claw feet. I do not have spare legs to experiment on. Does anyone have experience that would suggest that I should or should not put the dye on the legs followed by the sealcoat, followed by the stain? The concern is all the curves and making sure I get an even finish.
The dye will have only a modest difference between end grain revealed by carving and the flat grain. Once you have sealed the surface with the seal coat, and take care in wiping off the stain in crevises, etc. I suspect you won't be unhappy with the unevenness. Besides, have you seen any ball on claw feet on antiques that didn't have a little darkness in the crevices. Some would work hard with a glaze to achieve that effect.
Hi Steve,
I finished my coffee table before Christmas. I thought you might like to see the results, but I can't figure out how to attach photos to the new knots discussion format. Anyways, thanks for the tips on the finishing. I took your advice and used Waterlox Original Finish. I started with the medium sheen, but my wife wanted a satin finish, so I ended with a couple coats of the Waterlox Satin finish. The Waterlox was really nice to apply and the finish is outstanding. Thanks again for your advice.
With due respect Jeff, I never advised you to use polyurethane for any reason.
Peter
Running through the entire intended finish schedule on offcuts before starting the project is a good way to trouble shoot.
My experience is shellac redissolves the water based dye.
Denny
Not sure what you mean by redissolve, but I have found that some of the water based dye's color will migrate into the shellac. This is certainly true using Target Coating's water borne shellac, but also true to a less extent using alcohol cut dewaxed shellac. With Target's product, by all means put on thinner coats to avoid crazing (1-2 mills wet coat) and runs. If a run or drip occurs, try to scrap flush with "carton" utility knife blade or similar (the rounded corners of the carton blade almost eliminate the possibility of a corner digging in, unlike standard utility blades).
Even with some dye migration into the shellac, the pore filling step should lock in any migrated color. Just try to avoid any spot sanding, including after pore filling and after glazing.
I'm not a professional finisher, just an occasional one.
With powdered water soluble dye, you can get some migration of dye so a light touch with a brush, or spraying a first coat of shellac is of benefit. But, don't be confused using dye concentrates such as TransTint that can be mixed with a great many solvents. Mixing them with water doesn't make them strictly a water based dye, they remain fully soluble in alcohol, and oil, such as lacquer thinner. You would get a much greater problem using these dyes with shellac, other than a dry coat of sprayed shellac.
Good point. I was doing a project a week back and had applied a water based granular dye. When I put a coat of shellac on, the dye came right up and moved around. Had to go back to square one.
Denny
How was the shellac applied - brush? Pad? Spray?
I just finished a dry-sink vanity and here is what i done:
1. 1 layer of water-base dye light sanding after cure.
2. 1 layer of oil(boiled linssed oil) (adds luster)
3. 2 coats of Shellac
4. 1 coat oil gel-glaze
5. Another coat of Shellac
6. I finished with wax because I can refresh it every year.
One mistake I made though is I should had put at least a coat of Shellac at the very first, it would have kept from blotching a bit, but it gave a rustic look I don't hate either.
Edited 11/11/2009 9:24 am ET by patwreck
Sorry, I've been off line. It was brush applied.
Denny
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