Hi, I bought a Leather Strop off a friend. It’s a brand new barber shop type strop. It has two flaps, the brown Horsehide and a white linen strop.
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My question is what kind of paste or rouge should I buy.
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I’ll be using it to finish off chisels, knives, etc….
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From what I could gather on my own, it seems like I should use a green block (chromium oxide, I think).
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I’ve also heard that some type of ground diamond paste would work. I’d think this would be the best, but like I said, I’m clueless.
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I would appreciate ANY info on this and possibly a link to where I could order it online.
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One more question, what is the white linen strop used for and does it require any kind of rouge? It actually is linen but it kind of feels like plastic.
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Thank you very much,
Kevin Faenza
Replies
Xetti,
I'm sorry but I can't answer your questions as to what paste/dust to use for honing.
The purpose of the cloth strop was/is to remove any tiny steel particles that may be left over from honing a straight razor. As a former barber (unknown in these days), I learned how to hone straight razors, starting with a coarse, then fine stone, stropping with the cloth strop to clean the teeth in the blade. Final stropping was done on the leather with NO additives.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Hey, Bob,
When I was a young man, I shaved with a straight-edged razor. The barber that taught me proper honing and stropping had told me that the cloth strop helped to warm the metal to make it more amenable to honing on the leather. Somehow, I suspect your explanation might be better.
I never used leeches, though, did you? 'Course I wasn't a barber.
Interesting that you mention leeches.
In the early days of barbering they were often called upon to perfom what was called bloodletting, the application of applying leeches to small cuts into the skin via a straight razor. It was thought that the leeches would suck the poisoned/tainted blood from the victim. Perhaps victim is not the correct word here? Anyway the old fashoined barber pole with the red spiral stripes indicated a shop where this service was performed.
To this day there are those folks that feel that giving blood to the Red Cross helps their body to replenish the blood supply with fresh after donating blood? I'm not sure I subscribe to that thinking????
Now as to the disposal of the leeches after treatment, I have no evidence as to how that was done.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
P.S. I still use a straight razor on occasion, sharpened with my old stone and stropped with my barbers strop that is in excess of 30 years old. Just to make sure I can still do it. The real test of a razors sharpness is to coat a balloon with old fashioned shazing cream and shave the balloon without breaking it. Try that with your plane irons!
Yes the wife has cursed me for splattering the walls of the bathroom more than once. Lately I wait for warm weather and practice my balloon shaving outside. Much less of a mess to clean up after!
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 4/19/2007 8:33 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Edited 4/19/2007 8:36 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Leeches are still used in medicine. There is a group of hand surgeons at Johns Hopkins University who will use leeches following certain delicate procedures. The anticlotting compound in leech's saliva is ver good for keeping the damaged blood vessels open.
I use a different kind of strop (leather glued to a piece of wood), but same idea. I use aluminum oxide powder on the strop, I buy it from Smoky Mountain Woodcarvers. They have an online store. Here is there website: http://www.woodcarvers.com/
I bought my leather strop from Tools for Working Wood and some green compound at the same time. Compound works well, although like any sharpening task, you got to know when you're sharp and quit at that point!
Xetti,
A couple of years ago FWW had an article by Anne Frazier that addressed (briefly)the rouge questions your asking. First of all, I think there are three rouges: red, green and white. Red, jewelers rouge, is the most aggressive and White the least aggressive. Green is a happy medium..I have seen various answers but my guess is Green is equal to a 8,000-15,000 grit. Diamond paste, depending on its micron size, sharpens and hones over a complete range...ie. 200-20,000 (just guessing). Some believe using diamond paste is the most overall cost effective/performance solution...but it really different than rouge. You can buy complete setup(range of microns sizes) of diamond paste from Woodcraft for about $50.
Green rouge can be obtained from Woodcraft, Rockler, Highland's and many others...all available online. Many people use a strop without any rouge, personally, I've taken to using the green rouge on MDF with the plane blade in the Veritas MKII holder...works well for me.
Also, I put a small amount of rouge on the leather and wipe the blade with a pull stroke while planing to refresh the edge.
From the Standard Textbook of Professional Barber-Styling:
The cowhide strop was originally imported from Russia. To this day it still bears the name Russian strop, even though it may be manufactured in this country. This name usually implies that the strop is made of cowhide and that the Russian method of tanning was employed.
The cowhide or Russian strop is perhaps the most common strop in use today. When new, it requires a daily hand finish until such time as it is thoroughly broken in. There are several ways of breaking in a Russian strop. A method frequently used is as follows:
Another method of breaking in a Russian strop is to omit the pumice stone. Instead, stiff lather is rubbed into the strop with the aid of a smooth glass bottle or with the palm of the hand.
Horsehide Strop
Strops made of horsehide are divided into two main groups: ordinary horsehide strop and the shell.
An ordinary horsehide strop is of medium grade and has a fine grain. It has a tendency to be very smooth. In this condition it does not readily impart the proper edge to the razor. For this reason, it is not recommended for professional use. However, it is suitable for private use.
The other type of horsehide strop is called shell or Russian shell. This is a high quality strop taken from the rump area of the horse. Although it is quite expensive, it makes one of the best possible strops for professional use. It always remains smooth and requires very little, if any, breaking in.
Imitation Leather Strop
This type of strop has not proven too satisfactory. Because of the availability of high-quality strops, it is wise to avoid strops made of imitation leather.
Strop Dressing
Strop dressing serves a useful purpose in the barbershop. It cleans and conditions the leather strop, preserving the finish and thus improves the draw and sharpening qualities. For proper use, apply a very small amount of dressing to the leather strop. Rub well into the pores of the leather using the ball of the hand and remove the surplus. Always wait at least 24 hours between applications or before use.
Strop Paste
Strop pastes are used to refresh the edge of a mildly dull razor and can extend the period between honing. Available in varying grades of abrasiveness each designed to perform a particular task from sharpening to polishing. The greatest disadvantage of strop pastes is that once applied to the strop that particular strop cannot be used for any other purpose without first being thoroughly cleaned. One method is to have multiple strops, each dedicated to a specific use. It is not uncommon to see a three or four part strop in many barbershops.
Dovo Strop Paste:
http://www.classicshaving.com/catalog/item/522944/196078.htm
Go up a page or two once you're on the site and you can buy strops, strop dressing, and other stuff.
Tools for Working Wood sells Horse Butt strops with rouge and has instructions on-line under their sharpening link.
Even though it is horse butt, that strop (from TFWW) is a piece of junk compared to the real deal from a barber supply house.
And those rouge crayons/bars they sell are for use on a buffing wheel. The medium is too clumpy to simply rub on a cold strop.
Edited 4/19/2007 11:10 am ET by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
If the green from TWW is "too clumpy" how about suggestions as to what works?
Dovo strop paste, which I mentioned in one of my posts above.
See link above.
Edited 4/19/2007 11:03 am ET by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
Even though it is horse butt, that strop (from TFWW) is a piece of junk compared to the real deal from a barber supply house.
Ok. What exactly is the difference between your source's 3" wide strop and TFWW"s 3" wide strop--other than your source charges about $30 more? Well, and the length, which to me is a non issue.
For comparitive purposes, I am looking at the DOVO "Extra Wide" Russian Leather Strop located here:http://www.classicshaving.com/catalog/item/522944/297050.htm
verses Joel's, located here:http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-HORSEST&Category_Code=TH
The question really comes down to...have you used the one from TFWW? I know I haven't, nor have I used one from the source you give. From looking at the sales info from both sites, other than country of origin I cannot determine which is better.
So...if I was to part with my money for one, why choose the one from ClassicShaving over the TFWW one?
I agree on the pastes, at least the bars verses the tubes. Much easier using the tubes and the results I prefer.
Take care, Mike
Yes, I've used the one that Joel sells. I found the surface of mine was crazed and poorly tanned/treated.
I live next door to a retired barber and showed it to him. He said he wouldn't wipe his a$$ with it, much less use it on an edge that would touch somebody's face. I'm no leather expert, so I showed it to somebody who is. He said that it just wasn't a quality piece of leather for stropping.
The Dovo strop seemed to me to be a better piece of leather. My neighbor said words to the effect "now this is what you need..."
A photo on the net will not reveal the difference.
I don't for one minute question Joel's bona fides. He is a blessing.
Buy the Dovo. I promise there's a difference.
Mike, it's probably like splitting a great log down the middle and sending one half to a kiln dryer who knows what he's doing versus a hack. And I also doubt that every hide grades out equally either.
None of this has anything to do with Joel. He's not tanning hides and processing leather for strops. He's a distributor who found a source for leather. He's probably no more an expert than I am. I encourage him to buy a Dovo to see for himself. If he thinks they are equal in quality then great - he's running a business and gets to make the decision about which products from what sources to carry.
Edited 4/19/2007 12:19 pm ET by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
Hi Charles--many thanks for the detailed and personal experience reply. That is what I find helpful in comparitive discussions.
I'll keep it in mind--and I bookmarked the site--in case I do decide to get a strop. Mostly I only strop my carving tools in use, but a strop makes a lot of sense for what I now use a stone for at the bench, which is to renew an edge on my paring tools during use.
Other edges I just hand hone on an 6k or an 8k stone as needed because I usually take them what I think is past "stropable."
Again, thanks. Mike
Yes, I've used the one that Joel sells. I found the surface of mine was crazed and poorly tanned/treated.
Hi Charles
Your description of the Dovo makes it very appealing. I do wish that I could see and try one out.
With regard to the Horse Butt strop from TFWW, I must say that my experience is quite different from yours. I have been using one for about 6 months. The leather is excellent quality and unflawed (For comparison I can only offer a number of strops I have made fromm different grades of scrap leather over several years. Nothing like the Dovo).
My only criticism of the TFWW strop is that it is marketed as a double-sided strop, with one side smooth and the other rough. The latter is meant to be used with rouge and the smooth used as is. In reality, although the leather is both hard and stiff, it does bend and can curl. This introduces the danger of dubbing a blade. Consequently, I glued mine smooth side up to a piece of MDF (chosen because it is flat). I use it with Veritas green rouge (0.5 microns). I know you consider this to be a poor rouge in this context and consider that it should only be usedwith heat (I do also use it on a number of motorized wheels - leather, cloth and felt - where there is heat). Nevertheless, the results I get are excellent, and I can only recommend this combination highly to others considering a reasonably priced strop.
Lately I have been experimenting with diamond paste. I like to refresh my blades as I work, and my dissatisfaction with my waterstones is that they require space (which often gets buried under various objects and dust). The diamond paste is simply rubbed onto a piece of flat, hard Jarrah. I begin with 9 micron (equivalent to about 1000 waterstone), then move to 2.5 microns (equivalent to about a 5000 waterstone). I go from there to the TFWW strop with green rouge and I can honestly say that the edges I get are extremely sharp and smooth. Importantly, they take very little time to achieve and the set up is convenient.
So in summary, two grades of diamond paste on hardwood followed by the green rouge on the TFWW strop. Total cost is about $30/year.
View Image
Regards from Perth
Derek
I remain pretty adamant about the use of a paste compound and not the cakes. The cakes form streaks of compound on cold strops because of the wax binder. I can see the streaks in your photo. In your photo, you can see accumulation of green compound so thick in the center of your strop that none of the leather is exposed at all. The compound is not supposed to coat the leather but should be impregnated into it (almost impossible with high-wax content cakes). The leather itself has efficacy if the iron can find it. The thick coating you've got on your strop could just have easily been laid up on plastic, glass, or something else. The edge never contacts the supposed fine piece of leather. It should. Your strop has too much compound on it by a factor of two. The leather is completely coated. Why bother with using fine leather if the edge never touches anything but a scab of compound as in your strop? This defeats the purpose of seeking out a good leather strop. I'm quite sure that with a healthy application of the wrong kind of compound any old leather will do. In fact, a coarser grade of leather might have saved you from yourself in terms of the buildup so obvious in your photo.
It's difficult to debate the Dovo. It's something you need to see. Perhaps the strop from Joel was a bit below grade for the brand. Who knows?
I'm pretty sure that there is too much waxy green residue on your irons and chisels after you strop and this means you have too much loaded and that it is the wrong kind. The cakes work great on buffing wheels. Enough heat is generated when applying edge to wheel to allow the wax binder to melt back and expose the polishing compounds. The wax solidifies when you turn the wheel off and the process starts over again the next time. This is why one cake can (and should) last an entire woodworking career when buffing on wheels. It takes precious little and the formulation is perfect for the wheel.
Edited 4/20/2007 2:46 pm ET by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
Hi Charles
You asked, Why bother with using fine leather if the edge never touches anything but a scab of compound as in your strop? This defeats the purpose of seeking out a good leather strop.
Basically, Joel has answered much of what I would have said, but I will repeat his last words, What Derek is doing is something completely different - he's using the strop as a finishing stone - and it's unforgiving nature is very handy here. That's the effect of using green compound on a strop and I think it's popular because it saves time on the finishing stones. but following with a plain strop will give a better edge.
You also stated The compound is not supposed to coat the leather but should be impregnated into it (almost impossible with high-wax content cakes).
Actually, while this may appear so in the picture, in reality the rouge has impregnated the leather. The dark streaks are indeed an accumulation.
The advantage of the horse butt leather is that is is both absorbant (just enough to hold the rouge) and hard (enough to minimise dubbing).
The point is taken about using the strop without any rouge, that is as a final finish to remove the wire edge (which is what I was doing before using it as a final honing medium). So I have placed an order for another horse butt strop from Joel at FTWW. It is an excellent product. This one will be used as a final strop (again glued smooth side up to a piece of hardwood).
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek, this has all been most interesting, but I think you chaps are all barking up the wrong tree, so to speak. The ultimate strop leather is undoubtedly made from Hippopotamus hide, especially those hippos that live in the middle reaches of the Zambezi (;)
If you can't get the rouge or compound to penetrate the leather because of "clumpiness" or too much wax what is wrong with warming it up?
Also you might like to try that burnishing compound that is used for polishing auto paints.Philip Marcou
The ultimate strop leather is undoubtedly made from Hippopotamus hide, especially those hippos that live in the middle reaches of the Zambezi (;)
Philip
Good God Man! It is enough that I have to explain "horse butt" to the leather merchant in Perth. But to ask for Hippo is going to get me some seriously strange looks. Can I use a piece of biltong instead? View Image
Regards from Perth
Derek
Phillip:As every schoolboy knows Stanley greeted Livingstone, with the immortal words, "Dr. Livingstone, I presume". The two never having met in person.What is less well-known is that Stanley was able to deduce that the man he had run across was in fact Livingstone was due to the fact that he was clean-shaven. Livingstone shaved everyday and had a chance to sharpen his razor from the hides of the game that he shot during his expedition. He was able to try everything from Cassowary skin to Thompson's gazell hide in an effort to keep an edge on his razor, and to maintain the standards of the empire.Although his findings are poorly documented, I believe he was able to determine that the hide from the brisket of a three-year old Wildebeest produced the sharpest edge. Only the finest purveyors of woodworking accoutrements carry this product, which should of course carry the age and location of the said animal at the time it sacrificed itself to the great (and worthy) cause of sharp hand tools.Those unfamiliar with Livingstone's research mistakenly assume that it is the Hippopatami from the Zambezi that produce the finest edges - that research was carried out by a "continental eurpoean" of uncertain origin, and is therefore less reliable than Livingstone's contribution to the body of knowledge on shaving and sharp tools.Just had to clear up any possible misunderstanding.Hastings
Sir Hastings,
that research was carried out by a "continental eurpoean" of uncertain origin, and is therefore less reliable than Livingstone's contribution to the body of knowledge on shaving and sharp tools.
I do hope you're not referring to the venerable Lataxe!
Respectfully submitted,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob:Britain is an island off the european continent, and so Lataxe, being Lancastrian(1) cannot be classed as a continental european under any circumstances!The reference was a little subtle but was meant to specifically exclude the English.Regards,Hastings1. I think Lataxe referred to himself as a Lancastrian. If he is in fact from Yorkshire, he will be mightily upset. Even though the War of the Roses, fought between the House of Lancaster and the House of York from 1455 to 1485, the memory is, of course, quite fresh in Lataxe's neck of the woods! If I have in fact got this wrong, then mea culpa.
Ah yes, of course.
I understand that the Jolly Biscuiteer will return to the Knots fold near the end of this month. I'm sure there will be many tails that will be told. I can't wait!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Hastings, thanks for the delightful story, and I almost told Bob that David Lataxe was not a European but an Englishman. Anyway, I suspect 'e speaks foony, like.
Can you elaborate on that "subtle reference"- my imagination is out of control....Philip Marcou
Philip:I am afraid the subtle reference was to what is, by today's standards, a very politicaly incorrect (and dated) attitude by Englishmen to the europeans on the continent, i.e., the French, Germans Italians, etc. And to the English of the Nineteenth, and the first of half of the twentieth centuries, anything "made abroad" was automatically deemed to be inferior in every respect. That is why many goods during this period were stamped with "Empire Made" to avoid this stigma.Perhaps a little background is in order. My paternal grandfather was four when Lincoln was president and served as a Brigadier General in the Indian Army and was decorated during the Second Afghan War of 1899. My father served in the British Army in India starting in 1922 having graduated from Military Academy; he was born in Simla, India in 1902. So in many respects, I am a product of the Empire. The tales I would hear as a child were of life in the Raj (pretty good in fact). I have always felt slightly out of step with my own generation as a result and and had no difficulty in forming friendships with people who would have been my father's generation (he too was born out of step as it were).Your reference to the Zambezi brought to mind Dr. Livingstone's journey down the Zambezi, which he called "God's Highway". On finding the falls, he immediately named them Victoria Falls after the Queen. Another illustration of the insularity of Englishmen of that era was George V who was advised to go abroad. He refused and when asked why he said, "I hate abroad, abroad's bloody."And so, the subtle implication that anything made abroad would naturally be inferior was a tongue-in-cheek reference to the attitudes that were common to the Victorians and the Edwardians and probably survived up to the late 1950's.There is still today a love/hate relationship with the French. Some might even see it as racist but that would apply a very ugly label to complex set of relationships and attitudes.Far more than you wanted to know, but your query was more complex and deserved more than a one-sentence explanation.Regards,Hastings
Thanks Hastings-I understand perfectly, being "Empire made" myself. Also my high school English master was an ex Indian Army Colonel and there was nothing we would not do for him....Pity the Empire expired.
Have you seen the Victoria Falls? (Plenty Hippo there).Philip Marcou
Philip:Although I am reasonably well-travelled, I have not visited anywhere on the African continent, or for that matter the Indian sub-continent. I would love to do a trip to India and see some of the places that my father talked about; but, his descriptions are now nearly 80 years ago so it might prove to be a bittersweet experience.Hastings
India is still fabulously interesting, although the signs of the Raj are decaying. Modern India is still kind of an overlay on Eternal India. Well worth a visit. I plan to go back as soon as I can.
Joe
Hastings:As a true son of the Empire, were you by any chance nicknamed Battla?Joe
Joe:Funny you should mention it! The connection is too obvious not to be missed! But I can't say that it stuck. No-one has called me that for ages though.It might have made a good screen name! (I chose my own name, because I thought it would stop me from posting something really stupid!)Hastings
"The ultimate strop leather is undoubtedly made from Hippopotamus hide, especially those hippos that live in the middle reaches of the Zambezi (;)"
I had heard that hippos are dangerous. How do you get close enough to one of them to strop whatever? Also, do you think the hippo looks better with rouge, or green compound?
I guess another advantage of the live hippo is that the children really straighten up when you say "Don't make me get my strop!"
For really fine blades, a medical leech hide probably has the best hand. For really old tools, a bit of Mastodon hide is considered de riguer for neanders.
BTW, an earlier post about atoms and electrons got me excited. I don't like to be negative, but I have an extra electron that leaked out of the scanner, and there's nothing particularly special about it. But hey, it's no big thing, I guess.
<If I got back to work, maybe I could afford a Marcou Plane emoticon>
Derek, I can assure you that the accumulation of the waxy compound on top of that piece of leather is far less smooth and uniform than any finishing stone in common use by a woodworker. If that setup is supposed to be a proxy for a stone then it is at best, a poor one.
I've never been much for staring stuff down through a loup, but in this case I invite you to inspect the surface of your strop with one. You're worried about 'dubbing' an edge when in actuality you're running your edge through uneven mountains (at the magnified level) of accumulated, waxy compound.
There's a better piece of leather, and a better way for you on this page:
http://www.classicshaving.com/page/page/522944.htm
The paddle strops actually have a felt back to give a little spring to the leather. It's okay, it works great. You're not going a hundred strokes on the strop. No leather is going to be as hard as say a hard black Arkansas. A little spring keeps the edge touching the whole way. I promise that won't dull the edge or dub it over as others suggest.
You're going to have to try it. Get one of the two-sided jobbies and try stropping on linen, too. I think you're going to like this setup. The hanging hooks are handy too.
Edited 4/20/2007 2:08 pm ET by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
Derek... I also wanted to add... an ultra-fine ceramic stone is a good choice if what you are looking for is actually a quick honing rather than removal of a burr and the other assorted metal dingleberries that might be hanging from a freshly honed edge. The ceramics, as you know, can be used dry and don't represent nearly the hassle of water or oil stones for a quick touch up. A ceramic would be a better choice, IMO, than the use of a strop as a proxy for a stone for quick touchups. The rap on one particularly brand of ceramics is that 'they are not flat.' Well, they're flatter than any piece of leather (even glued to a substrate) so that's a non-starter in the context we're discussing.
Now, if the use of a strop has a bit of romantic component and less a practical one then I stand by my recommendations in my other posts. You can have your nostalgic cake and eat it to. And there's nothing wrong with nostalgia.
And if all you need is removal of a burr or other flotsam you could just swipe the edge on the front of your shirt or pants, or gently push it into the endgrain of a piece of pine or other soft wood.
Edited 4/20/2007 1:40 pm ET by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
This thread has got to be considered pretty funny.Somehow I think I'm going to be able to get by without the the $75 Dovo strop, though I'm not about to argue with Chaz about it - I'll bet it's surely a damn fine strop.One thing I do need, I've discovered, is this:
http://www.cachebeauty.com/King/barbicide_disinfectant_jar-large.htmI don't know why I need it, and I didn't really know that I did need it until I saw a picture of it on the internet, after reading this thread and following the links, but I know now that I really need one.As a matter of fact, I need two - one for holding my combs and nose hair clippers, things like that, just exactly like the barber shop,...and one for the kitchen, for making martinis.
I'm too young to have ever had my face shaved by a barber with a straight razor, but I do very distinctly remember as an adolescent the barber shaving the back of my neck (and sideburns) with his straight razor. I remember the big, fine strop attached with a swivel to the chair and I can honestly say that I'm glad this particular bloke didn't decide to economize.
Edited 4/20/2007 1:36 pm ET by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
Formerly,
And did you, like me, sit very still in the chair, as he approached? The barber's name was Howard Swartz, he was a proud WWII veteran, and just a little intimidating. A boy's haircut was 50 cents, in 1950's Winchester. Loved that hot lather, that came out of the chrome machine sitting on the counter, and afterward, the talcum dusted around my neck with the soft brush.
Someone was telling me the other day, that "regulars" in his barber's shop each had their own shaving mug and brush that stayed on the counter behind the chair. That had disappeared by my time.
Nostalgically,
Ray
I remember the hot lather machine very well, the smell, everything. Funny though, I remember all of this only in the context of summertime - how my neck would sting from the sweat if I had a baseball game or practice after my haircut. There was a black and white t.v. on a shelf and there always seemed to be a St. Louis Cardinals game on. We all got our hair cut on Saturday so I guess a game was always on, at least in the summer. Curt Flood, Orlando Cepeda, Bob Gibson and Tim McCarver all in black and white with zig-zag lines. The Doublemint chewing gum Mr. Frazier gave me always seemed a little more minty, like they made a special kind and sold it only to barbers.
Frazier's Barbershop, next to Watson's T.V. Repair, next to the Corral Bar and Grill...
Edited 4/20/2007 6:09 pm ET by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
Hi Ray,
When I was a barber, back in '66, I used to shave my boss every other day. He likewise shaved me as well. We had the mugs and the lanolin laced soap that we used to make the lather in a mug, didn't have a machine. Prep consisted of how towels, several in succession. Lather up and shave finished off with a good splash of Witch Hazel.
In barbers school we used to practice on balloons after sharpening our straight razors!
Ed: I had two of the disenfectant jars whe I was cutting hair but they can no longer be found.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 4/20/2007 2:54 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob,
Where'd they find hairy balloons for you guys to practice on?
Cup soap for shaving mugs is getting harder and harder to find. Used to be Yardley's, Old Spice, Palmolive, and Williams , in that order of preference. Now all I can find is Williams. Figures. And the last brush I got, I had to get from a barber supply store. Am I the last guy on earth still shaving from a mug?
Ray
Am I the last guy on earth still shaving from a mug?
No Ray, I still do this as well. I agree that finding the soap is a battle, or was. Several years ago, while holidaying in Margarets River (a small seaside town three hours south of Perth), as I was on the dregs of my last scraping, I came across a couple of cakes in the local pharmacy. I quickly bought their entire stock (three in all). They do last a long time and I am just about to start on the last one. Since then, however, a shaving shop/store franchise has opening up in Perth, and I believe that they have several brands for sale. One of the small pleasures in life.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Ray,
<<Am I the last guy on earth still shaving from a mug?>>
Not a chance! Soap out of a mug for shaving is the only way to go, as far as I'm concerned. That soft brush slathering soap across your face first thing in the morning partly makes up for the scraping of that sharp blade across one's tender cheeks and chin.... :-)
.<!----><!----><!---->
Tschüß!<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->James<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."
-- A.C. Clarke
James and Ray,
Pepare your face with a couple of hot towels then lather up. Make the lather as the towels are soaking in HOT water! The hotter the better. Apply the hot towels until the pain goes away!
Then apply the lather and shave. The whiskers will slice off nice and smooth.
It can be a little tricky if your right handed the left side is harder, opposite side if you're a lefty. If righty, the handle should be straight out from the blade and gripped as one would a screwdriver when shaving the left side and the chin, as well as under the chin on both sides; tang hooked in pinky when used normally.
Shaving someone else is a lot easier, you can almost tang it all the way. If you're really daring have your wife shave you!
Google shaving with a straight razor, some interesting hits there. Drop the Italics or you'll only get hits from Italian barbers. :-) :-)
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 4/23/2007 7:45 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Hi Bob,
Thanks for the shaving tips. I don't use a straight razor tho. I like to use my shipwright's slick instead. I place its handle against my knee, put the blade against my face, and repeatedly tap that funny reflex place with a rubber mallet--works great! In the woods, I use a similar technique with a bark spud, unless it's hunting season, then I have a big knife, a la Rambo.
Ray
Fellow Connoisseurs of Shaving With Fine Soap Lather and a Brush!!
I think I'm screwing up here: my hand is not steady enough to use a straight razor first thing in the morning, so I use an old Preston spokeshave, that's been stropped on coyote hide (the fur side does a real nice job for touch-ups!). The sole of the spokeshave keeps the blade from digging in too far, if I get in a hurry and slip.... (For those of you who want to try this technique, I find that the rounded-sole spokeshaves are a little easier on the neck than the flat shaves....)
Happy shaving!!
.<!----><!----><!---->
Tschüß!<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->James<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."
-- A.C. Clarke
my hand is not steady enough to use a straight razor first thing in the morning, so I use an old Preston spokeshave
James
I'd use one too if only I could get the blade sharp enough. Can anyone recommend a decent strop? <!----><!----> <!----> <!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!---->
<!---->Regards from Perth<!---->
<!---->Derek<!---->
Ray, I started while driving Uncle Sam's submarines who forbid the use of aerosols but provide Oster soap machines in the head. While on a you-drive tour of the south coast of France I fell into a little shop and bought two mugs, three beautiful badger shaving brushes, a taller dusting bursh and a box of shaving soap discs. I still use my two Gillete razors and recently found a sell off of Wilkenson 5 pack blades for 49¢ each and bought a lifetime supply. In retirement I now use a bunch of high end Norelcos from time to time. One in the truck, one in the traveling bag and one in the house but for dinner with a lady it's back to the brush and blade and some 4711 or a little Pinaud. All the best, Paddy
BTW. My old tar-heel barber in NY (who learned to cut hair on mine sweepers in WWII) told me about a Sailor and a Marine gettin a hair cut off base and the Marine refused the lavender splash because he said his wife would acuse him of having stopped in a bordello. When the Sailor was asked for his preference he said fine as his wife didn't know what a bordello smelled like! Ha.
Pinaud!
Are you talking about the fake Canoe? That's what we used to call it when I was a barber. The wine glass shaped bottle that had a picture of a stately man on the front with a handle-bar moustache?
Man does that bring back memories! I dated a girl from East Boston that once told me that Pinaud doesn't cut it as a replacement for Canoe.
No staying power!
That's Funny,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob, in a stop at the Naples NATO base exchange I lucked out with a liter bottle of Canoe for about $10 (1964$) , a favorite of my new wife at the time and she used Charlie .
She used to say WE got married and HE went on a honeymoon trip to the MED. Paddy
Pat in the Hat,
Pinaud. My dad was fond of Pinaud's Lilac de Vegetal. Guess that makes you older than me. I gave up on my old double edge razor, the blades got to be harder to find than cup soap. I use one of those modern threee-bladed things now.
My brother has grandpap's old straight razor. I remember the strop hanging behind the pantry door in the farmhouse, where I grew up. Never got threatened with it though. Not because I didn't need it, mom used a cake-turner!
Have you ever seen a device called "C-mon hone"? It's a single edge razor with a non replaceable head/blade, that you remove from the handle and clamp into a gizmo that's attached to a hone; as you drag it back and forth over the special stone, it flips itself over to hone both edges alternately.
Ray
Ray, no hones for a stone but my Daddy had an oval canister, flap door on a wide side, a split shaft keyed for double edged blades, soft leather rollers in the perimeter and a fold out crank handle on the end. You could renew the edges nicely and he said it was priceless while touring Luzon in the Phillipines with the Corps of Engineers evicting the Japanese from their cave apartments in WWII. Paddy
May I also recommend the purchase of some "Bay Rum". That and a little Vitalis in the freshly sheared hair (which I have no longer) will take you back decades!
T.Z.
Derek,
I'm with you on the quality of the horse butt strop I got from TWW. Mine was perfectly smooth on one side and rough on the other. I do not use the smooth side, but rather use green compound on the rough. I can draw a razor sharp edge after a few strokes and my only issue is making sure I don't strop too much!
As you said, the strop does have a tendency to curl after charging with compound and you have to be careful not to "dub" edges.
T.Z.
All,
As a bit of useless trivia, tradition says that the best horsehide for shoemaking came from Cordoba, in Spain. And that the best part of the hide for shoes was from the horses butt. That leather was called cordovan (Cordoban), and the archaic term for a shoemaker was cordwainer (cordovaneer). I always thought that "cordwainer" had something to do with the cord that they used for stitching the leather together. Not.
Ray
HOrse butt is always used when you want really hard tough leather. Historically the best strops were always horse butt. But different trades need strops of different characters. Woodworkers want to preserve the flat back and front bevel geometry of a tool - a soft forgiving strop will be easier to use but round the delicate geometry of the tool - necessitating regrinding. on regular woodworking I use an untreated strop because all I want the strop to do is remove that last bit of wire edge that I can't really feel and any strop treatment just creats more burr. the .5 micron compound bar we stock is coarser than the edge I will get from a good arkansas stone or a 8k waterstone that is worked with slurry. but a stropping with a plain strop improves the edge.I use both sides of a strop by simply holding one edge with one hand on a hard surface.
Woodcarvers on the other hand use a strop to actually sharpen. So they use a treated strop to actually remove metal. A little give in the leather is okay because a little rounding of a carving tool isn't considered a bad thing. With frequent stroppings you can delay the combersome resharpening of a carving tool on stones for a long time.
Again after stropping on a treate strop you will get a finer edge on an untreated on. (just try it you will see). A soft strop is easier to use but increases the rounding.Barbers are in a different world alltogether. Straight razors are flexible and curved and a hard strop would be very unforgiving and hard to use. THey need a soft flexible strop that follows the razor. They also use the strops for actual sharpening - not just finishing so the compounds they use really sharpen - but typically not as fine as what woodworkers need. In other words If a barber likes your strop it's probably too forgiving and too aggessive for a woodworker like me but a woodcarver may or may not like it depending on how they use their tools. And of course a barber would find woodworking strops to unforgiving and totally useless. What Derek is doing is something completely different - he's using the strop as a finishing stone - and it's unforgiving nature is very handy here. That's the effect of using green compound on a strop and I think it's popular because it saves time on the finishing stones. but following with a plain strop will give a better edge. Joel
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com
joel,
Thanks for the information about strops. I don't think a barber will have much use for my strop, as I typically use the heel of my hand, or sometimes the upper of my shoe for stropping. I finish up my honing with a black Arkansas stone, so feel that minimal, if any, stropping is needed. Like you, I think that stropping helps the edge, but can't produce any empirical, only anecdotal evidence. (I'm still waiting for Mel's $29.95 electron microscope/grindstone for woodworkers.) I have a friend who used to strop with a brown paper bag. He claimed the paper was just abrasive enough to do some good.
Regards,
Ray
RAy,
The hand is a traditioanl strop - of course without compound so it works best for final stropping of carving tools. it's just short and takes a lot of strokes (and pocket knives because we don't mind a little round there either over time. Stropping with a plain strop (one for woodworkers) after an black arkansas stone will give a better edge. see: http://www.antiquetools.com/sharp/sharpstropping.htmltry it you will see. On alloys other than plain carbon steel the effect of stropping on a plain strop is less because the metal of A2 for example is more brittle so any remaining wire edge will be removed with less effort. Also a plain strop has less of an abrasive effect on A2.Joel
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com
Ray,
I also use my palms for a final strop, but I use both palms. I use green rouge on my left palm but leave my right palm without an additive. The doorknobs in my house are brass and are not finished with lacquer. So when I open the doors with my left hand, the green rouge is just enough to keep the knobs very bright. I only use the paste rouge on my left palm. I found that the waxy rouge sticks left too many streaks on the surface of my palm. I have tried both rhino and hippo hides for stropping. I find that the human palm with green rouge is better than the hippo but not as good as the rhino. The problem with rhino strops is that most stores do not carries a sufficient stock to let you choose a really good one. As you pointed out in one of your posts, an electron microscope is excellent for checking out the quality of a strop before purchasing one. I don't believe that buying either rhino or hippo strops on the internet is an acceptable practice. You can't trust someone else's use of an electron microscope to make a good judgment. There are some things that you just have to do yourself. Happy stropping!
MelPS - I have checked my message over carefully and can't find any truth in it at all. I wonder if there is anyone who is skimming this thread who can get through more than two paragraphs of my post without realizing this. I did have to read a few of the other posts a few times to assure myself that they were real. I believe that if I described this thread to my wife at dinner, she would recommend electroshock therapy. She will be happier when I tell her that I believe I can turn this into a big money making venture. I plan to make a VERY FINE HONE. It will be a 3" x 8" piece of titanium coated with an ultra-flat ultra-smooth coating of pure diamond film. This will be the ultimate strop. It will NOT dub the edge, and each pull of the blade across the diamond strop will remove fewer than three atoms of steel from the blade. There will be no danger of grinding away too much of the blade. IT WILL BE THE ULTIMATE HONE. Also, I will help each prospective buyer purchase one, by helping them refinance their house to help with the downpayment. This tool will continue to take Knots' tradition of "Always buy the best." to new heights. I will only need to sell one in order to be able to retire comfortably.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I believe that I have confessed before that I own every sharpening sytem known to man but I would like to further admit that I am working through my toothpaste-on-MDF phase, now.It really works very well. You could say that it's a final hone and a strop all in one. Not only are your blades and chisels bright and razor sharp, but they smell minty fresh, as well.Sometimes, if I feel like I just gotta go with an additional strop as well, I'll see if I can't hunt down an uncirculated $100 bill and clamp that flat onto a steel plate - nothing more slippery than one of those, but it's got a little "tooth" in it, a little fiber running through to hold your jeweller's rouge.
Ed and Mel,
I found that the thread / fibre in the new $100 bills is uneven resulting in a 0.00009638 (at least according to my yardstick) variation on the cutting edge of the bezel. However, when still using the old $100 bills the cutting edge of the bezel maintains proper tolerances.
Alan - planesaw
Alan, Ed,
I have tried both toothpaste and paper money. For toothpaste, I use one with floride. No cavities in my chisels for years. For paper money, I use old Italian paper money. I can get it in large sizes for pennies, and it usually dirty enough to have a bit of bite to it. I have a lot of relatives from Italy so getting replacement paper money is easy. I actually have a cousins named Vinnie and Vito, and uncles named Guido, Ugo, and Lorenzo. I find discussions on drill bits to be boring, but discussions on honing are always rather pointed. Ciao ed a presto, (good bye, and we'll do this again soon)
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
A great source for strops and info on sharpening wood tools with them is this website :
handamerican.comThe fellow imports butt horsehide for this purpose and cuts the leather in usable sizes. I had him make 8" rounds to use on my Veritas Mk II sharpening machine. I use it with chromium oxide (green) polish and finish with 1 micron and then 1/2 micron diamond paste.Gary Curtis north of San Francisco
Mel, are you getting any snipe at all? For those chaps failing to adequately deal with their snipe I suggest that they shave with Semtex (you might call it Cordite). You will never see snipe again.
This is an adaptation of an old Gunners trick-it was found that Semtex was better for removing trees in the line of fire than the garotte type chain saws.Philip Marcou
Philip,
I learn something new every day. I had never heard of cordite or semtex, but I looked them up on Google, and now my mind is expanded.
Thank you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Oh, Mel,
You are all wrong. You should be using red rouge on both palms. Then in moments of inspiration, "Zut, Alors!" (in English, "DOH!"), when you slap your forehead, it will match the color of your nose (it works for me). You are hitting the bottle pretty hard, aren't you, my friend? Drinking the shellac, again? Frenchy's ultra thin cut with Everclear is the best, the Zinsser 3# will kill you. Dying that way, the process is horrible but the finish is beautiful.
Overheard two atoms in my electron microscope talking one day. One said, "I just gave up an electron." The other asked, "Are you sure?" The first replied, "I'm positive."
I once bought some hippo skin from a native American woman. Her two competitors at the hide market, both women, were selling deer, and elk. While at the market, the ladies allowed their children to play on the merchandise. Interestingly, the hippo seller told me was expecting twins, the others had only one boy each. I immediately realised that the squaw on the hippopotamus, was equal to the sons of the squaws on the other two hides.
That's all folks,
Rayu
Ray,
So much for stropping.
I posted a message about what things that all woodworkers agree on. It is in a Knots Gallery, entitled something like "There has to be one". My post is 35696.41
Let me know if you agree with those things.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mike,
I still use my old barbers leather/canvas strop that I got in my barber kit when I went to barbers school in Boston. That was back in 1966, and it's still good as new. There are all kinds of WEBsites where these can be purchased fairly inexpensively.
http://www.cachebeauty.com/wholsale/razors.htm#strops
Hell I've used a flat piece of hard maple in the past. One day we were cleaning out the attic and I came across my old barbers kit and pulled out the strop. Why couldn't I use this for my plane irons?
I use it all the time now. One of the old time teachers at the barber school used to lubricate his with old fashioned lather. It had just the right amount of lanolin in it he oftyen said. I use it to keep the leather soft.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
After reading about your green rouge on a leather strop I gave it a try. It seems to work well. I haven't tried diamond paste yet but thought I'd try the rouge on hard wood. That also worked well and I could add a drop of mineral spirts which would soften the rouge and it seemed to help. So I decided to go one step further and shaved some into a glass jar and added a drop of mineral spirits to make a paste and used it on glass. This makes an excelent strop with no chance of "dubbing" the edge.
..shaved some into a glass jar and added a drop of mineral spirits to make a paste and used it on glass
That's a great idea, well worth experimenting with. I'll give it a go myself.
I have been meaning to post again to this thread in follow up to past discussion about strops, particularly using a plain leather as a final finish after the green rouge. Charles made some very helpful points.
I ordered another hard horse butt strop from Joel at Tools for Working Wood. While this was in the process of shipping, I looked at the strop recommended by Charles. I must admit that at this point I acted like a cheapskate. The cost of the recommended strop is high (relative to strops, not to tools) and I had already purchased another one from Joel. I came across an eBay ad for what looked like a hard and traditional type, and won this for a fraction of the cost of any of the above. I could not find any data about the manufacturer, but with the low cost it seemed a worthwhile risk. It has turned out to be a fantastic purchase.
The leather strop has the following markings: "Wildherd ... Genuine Shell" and "Opp's Barber Supply Co, Pueblo, Colo". It is 33 1/2" (595mm) long and 2 1/2" (60mm) wide. About 3/32" thick. And hard! No perceptible give at all. It also has a noticable grain which is raised if I run a blade the other way. I glued the one side (rough side? Hard to tell) to a length of flat and smooth hardwood to avoid the risk of dubbing a blade (which can occur when using "loose" leather since this has a tendency to curl). I really like this one and have not yet even used the TFWW version yet. I will let all know how they compare.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Keith at HandAmerican supply in New Jersey (website currently under construction) sells horse butt leather in all sorts of shapes to be used in sharpening. He cut me two 8-inch circles that I use on my Veritas Mk II power sharpener. I use 1 micron diamond past and 1/2 micron diamond, making a trailing cut with the platter barely revolving. Using a straight piece of his strop material I charged the leathere with green chromium dioxide. the results are barely distinguishable with the varying methods and compounds. they all get a tool very, very sharp. If you go to Keith's website his phone number is listed. This guy is a wealth of information on sharpening.Gary Curtis
northern california
For some time, I have used a 'polishing head' with both medium-coarse and fine wire wheels installed; for removing light rust and any machining burr removal.For the final touch after sharpening I bought the hard felt wheel and green compound set from Lee Valley.To eliminate any round-over to a keen edge, I clamp the tool to a playing-card size piece of Oak; holding the keen edge about 1/32 from the edge of the block. This has effectively protected the edge from any round-over, while quickly buffing the bevel to a mirror finish.Arlington, Texas (The dash in Dallas-Fort Worth)
Practice...'till you can do it right the first time.
Xetti,
I have always used jeweler's rouge (red), periodically rubbing the rouge block on the strop to renew it. I am always amazed at great this is to bring a fine edge up to a super edge.
When I was a kid my grandfather had a barber's strop that he used for his straight razor. We feared this thing greatly, for reason that I don't care to divulge.
Woody
I found a company online that would sell me a peice of horsebutt leather for a lot less money than you'd pay HH. I bought 2+ sq ft for $27.50 shipped. It'll make a lot of strops
Can you post the web address?
Here's the URL, you'll need to contact them to find out if they have any. I'm not sure if it's something they stock all the time.
http://www.partnersforever.com/
I don't think you need a strop at at. I've used them before. Now I just use the palm of my hand. It works just as well. Of course it is skin and that's all leather is.
http://www.kalafinefurniture.blogspot.com
Well, actually nothing works as well as a pair of blue jeans. Just run it over the big part of your thigh. Unless you're built like the Governator your thigh has a little give to it which does not mess up the blade.
A high quality barber's strop is the best way to go, but for those of us who don't like to use up all our profit on equipment a good piece of saddle skirting (from The Leather Factory or shoe shop) glued to a 6" long and 3" wide piece of maple that has been planed and scraped flat does a great job! I use a stick of green rouge from Lee Valley and get edges that make the hair on your arm almost jump off the edge of a chisel or plae iron.
Kevin, I do my final polish on a MDF wheel on my grinder. It has great properties for holding the compound, yet is rigid enough to stay flat and not round over the edge like softer leather. There is no reason it wouldn't be good for hand stropping also.
All it takes is a light touch. I work form the back of the wheel, so rotation is away from the edge. I set the tool against the wheel with the heel of the bevel, then rock on down onto the bevel, then up a degree or two to concentrate the work on the edge.
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