Interesting thread over at the Consumerist about the excellent service Lee Valley provides. Personally, I’ve had nothing but good experiences with Lee Valley… which is why I’m posting it. Most often we only hear about the negative stuff, maybe if more companies realized that customers are also willing to write about the positive, well maybe more companies would strive to provide it.
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Hello Woodman,
I have also had nothing but great service from Lee Valley. I hope they can continue to up hold there present level of service for many years to come; I plan on remaining a customer for as long as they do!
Just my 2C
Bob, Tupper Lake, NY
Add another kudos for their service...even when I'm the one that screws up the order! They are even close enough to me to drive to if i have to but not everyone has that advantage...
I'm at the point where I feel stupid every time I buy something elsewhere that LV sells.
The only complaints about them is that they don't have a store closer. I don't have that problem, however. Wouldn't want to have to wait for the courier to get LV products. :)
Andy
After 22 years of dealing with them, I have no complaints. They have got things right,and don't play games. Legitimate complaints are made right;
the rest have been dealt with fairly in my experience.
I bought two of something and they only shipped one, with the paperwork saying the order was complete.
One phone call no questions and the problem was fixed! They shipped the missing item right away.
Very good customer service from my standpoint.
max
Hi, I have to agree with all that has been said. I think it must also be said that they have great product and selection, too.
I bought a template bit for my router from them a while back. last time i used it i forgot to check the set screw on the lock collar (they have a tendancy to wiggle themselves loose). long story short, i lost said screw and was unable to find a replacement. I asked LV customer service where i could find another (didn't seem right asking them to replace it as i was lost due to my own stupidity) and their reply was its in the mail, thank you for shopping Lee Valley.
Turns out the screw they sent was the wrong size. I felt bad complaining because they had already done more than i would have asked, but i thought let's see how good the customer service really is. i sent back the replacement screw, and they mailed me back a new lock collar, with proper screw of course, along with a letter of apology for any inconvenience this may have caused me.
Man I love Lee Valley
-pjw
I've said this before in Taunton forums and I'll say it again: Lee Valley is the best. Period.
My only gripe with them is that they are a privately held company. I wish that they were a publicly held company so I could buy their stock. However, once everyone owned a piece of them, the bottom line would be "more profit for the shareholders and screw the consumers", just like the rest of the corporate world. This is why most of the world's inferior products come from out-sourced off-shore conglomerates who could care less how much money we waste on their products.
So, am I really sorry I can't buy their stock? No way! This is the very reason Lee Valley is doing so well as a company.
It is also the reason Lee Valley:
1) Has employee's who work for them for a long, long time;
2) Carries superior products that are fairly priced;
3) Continues to bring to market innovative products rather than rest on their laurels;
4) Has great customer service;
5) Has developed an extremely large and loyal customer base which has, and will continue, to support them.
Bottom line: Lee Valley epitomizes what every company, big or small, should aspire to be: They put the customer first and foremost. If this sounds like some company that each of us used to know at some time in our lifetime, then you can ponder just how bad things have become over the past few years.
Lee Valley gives us, the average consumer, the respect that we deserve for purchasing their products. In turn, we support and promote them every chance that we get. What a concept.
Thanks.
This reminds me of the problems that Costco (which is publically traded) faces. Costco is consistently profitable, is universally regarded as a great place to work, the employees get top-notch health care benefits, the CEO takes a small salary and refuses to accept bonuses if he doesn't feel that the company has performed as well as he thinks it should have, etc. And, to top if off, they have great prices.
The bottom line? The company is constantly criticized by Wall Street for not showing higher profits.
-Steve
I'm no rocket scientist about business, but I really think it's like to proverbial donkey-across- the-fence thing: You're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. Some businesses, public or private, know how to stay afloat and keep almost everyone associated with them relatively happy.Several years ago, my Fidelity rep asked me why I was dumping Magellan (a mutual fund) for a single stock, Apple Computer (AAPL). My reply was that I believed in Steve Jobs. In truth, I really did not know what the future would hold for my decision, but I have always believed in Apple computers and I felt - somewhat nervously for sure, that this could be a good time to make this leap. Today I could look back and say, 'I was one smart investor for making that decision.', but only a fool would say that because there is no way to know how it will go. I was just fortunate, that 1), Mr. Job's believed in delivering a quality product, and 2), he was not afraid to live on the edge of technology and bring new and innovative products to market, and 3) he knew how to run a company such as this in a very volatile market. The rest is history we are all aware of.So, I suppose one could say Apple is similar to Lee Valley, but I really think that would be comparing Apples ( pun intended ) to oranges. Apple just happens to be able to make most of it's consumers happy, and all of it's investors extremely happy. The majority of publicly held businesses wish they could make the same claims. Tomorrow, who knows?Yes, I am aware of Costco. I recall a segment on 20-20/60 Minutes on their CEO, whom I recall made the claim that he had shook the hand of every Costco employee. That's impressive in addition to all of the other employee benefits that you mentioned. I've never been in a Costco, but I would shop there if there was one close by.Here in Oak Park, we have a mom-and-pop hardware store (Dressel's) that I frequent often. Recently, I was amazed to discover that they carry some products which were cheaper that Home-Depot and Lowe's. Both of these businesses are very close by, yet Dressel's stays in business. I cannot be certain, buy perhaps they are a smaller version of Lee Valley. Next time I'm in, I will make it a point to talk to the manager and get his spin on this.Thanks for your comments.
I feel the same way about LV and have similar feelings about LL Bean, also privately held. In the long run, great service and no aggravation means that we don't shop around for the best price, but just go to LV for tools, garden stuff, etc. and to LLB for clothing, etc. I know the price will be pretty good and that's good enough.
I never knew LLB was a privately held company. Must be why I get that warm 'n fuzzy feeling when I purchase from them. Our home is full of LLB items that keep us, er ... warm. Like the down comforter that is coming in pretty handy now.Your comment about not shopping around for the best price may be off the mark. You could be getting the best price and just aren't aware of it. To be certain LV doesn't carry everything, but you are saving time, not to mention possible frustration from another vendor when you order from LV. Just last week I placed an order for some brass screws that I needed to restore a 1917 school desk and chair. I just grabbed LV's Hardware catalog and ordered away. Ordered a few other items that may or may not be available elsewhere. Like Tried & True's Varnish finish. Like their carbide-impregnated re-saw blade for my INCA 710. I've spent a small fortune on Wood Slicer's, but that came to an abrupt halt after the last batch I ordered wouldn't even track correctly. Forget that.Slightly off topic, but this is about LV's proprietary products, the router top, to be specific. I built my own router bench nearly identical to what they offer. Briefly, every time I use that router top and its accessories, I can't help but smile. The stuff is just built right and it does what it was advertised as being able to do. My 'financial advisor', tells everyone that I 'engineer' wood. I don't think that's quite accurate, but I do spent a bit of time on my projects. Bottom line for me is that I can look myself in the mirror after my client picks up her piece. IMHO, that's what it's all about, but it's nicer yet to 'git' er done' with the right tools.So, yes, as you said, "... the price will be pretty good and that's good enough." Can't beat that.Thanks for your comments.
Phillip,
These days we're told that The Market determines our behaviour, at both the personal and the (inter)national level, which may be true. However, many believe that this means that consumers merely follow low prices and/or what they are led by advertisers to believe is desirable.
But perhaps Adam Smith was right and we consumers follow a more rational path - one that's in our own self-interest? It's just taking some folk a bit of time to understand what a good purchasing rationale is, maybe. :-) LV, LN and similar are providing a great model.
Like all here, Lee Valley represents to me the near-ideal producer/seller. It certainly isn't just the price and, tool porn catalogue aside, it's not their advertising. They make stuff that works well and they offer high value, not lowest price. They do that for their whole service, not just the physical things we get from them.
Would that all capitalist enterprises followed this model. Win-win, they calls it.
How do the bad lads get way with their selling of dross and zero customer service? Hmmmm, how many irrational consumers are keeping the unacceptable face of capitalism alive by giving in to the advertising and the high stacks of cheap stuff? Perhaps Adam S was wrong after all.
Lataxe, born just a bit longer ago than yesterday.
LataxeJust curious--do you have a LV or LN store or retailers that carry their productsin the UK or do you buy over the 'net, and how much more does it cost you than on this side of the Atlantic? I just lost a dear friend originally from Scotland, and he did a lot of business in the UK, but never said how much more it cost, or if it did. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Tom,
There is one importer of LV to Britain, as far as I know - a firm called BriMarc. They distribute to various retailers, most of whom trade from both a shop and via the Internet. I tend to buy most of my stuff via the Internet from a retailer that has a good reputation, as evidenced on woodworking forums for instance.
LN range is also available here in the same way, although I don't know who imports.
Prices in Britain for LV are broadly similar to a maximum 20% higher than via their catalogue direct. Buying direct includes P&P as well as the customs duty and Value Aded Tax, which adds around 30%. It is often just as cheap to buy from a retailer in Britain - but not always.
LN seems to be sold a little high in Britain compared to US prices. Again, we are talking about 10 - 20% more (ignoring the taxes we have to pay).
***
Just today I received an LV jointer plane from Classic Hand tools, bought via the Internet (with one or two other things). Before tax it was £144 ($288 asuming $2 to the pound). I believe it is around $270 from LV direct. So, because I got mine P&P free from Classic Hand tools, but it would cost me at lest $30 to ship from Canada, it was cheaper to buy here in Britain.
Lataxe
LataxeThanks. I had wondered if folks in the UK or Australia or New Zealand or ___________ were somewhat at a disadvantage when it came to buying from these two great companies. I've ordered from Lee Valley numerous times, and I'm always a little surprised when I see the shipping charges. Of course, I live near Houston, TX which is a looong way from Lee Valley. And I get to buy tax free. Thanks again for the explanation. Curiosity satisfied. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Tom,
There is one little difficulty in buying LV stuff in Britain - the importer doesn't import everything that they make or offer in Canada/the US of A. In the past I've bought from LV direct, taking the P&P and customs-duty hits, because that was the only way to obtain various of their items.
The British importer now takes in a greater proportion of their wares than they used to; but not all. Very little of their excellent hardware comes our way, for instance; and maybe around 60% (a bit of a guess) of their WW tool catalogue.
Still, my LV collection of stuff is pretty-near max'd-out so the issue is fairly academic for me now. I do hanker for some of their hardware now and then, though.
As far as I know, all LN stuff is available from the various British retailers that carry their products. I buy less LN, simply because LV is a bit cheaper and a bit more innovative, with very similar performance and quality. LN do make a few things not yet seen in a Veritas catalogue, however. Their LN140 skew block, for instance, which is a marvellous wee beastie.
Lataxe, L# addict.
Lataxe,You've made some very thought provoking comments, and I couldn't agree more.You must forgive me, but I'm basically a pretty simple guy that lives by a single premise: If you treat me right, I'll treat you the same way. This concept needs no explanation as most folks with a grain of common sense can grasp this. I believe this is synonymous with your 'win-win' concept.However, something happens when CEO's and all of their cohorts get together to plan business strategy in their lofty boardrooms. For starters, they are so far above the real world that they forget that it's their consumers, whom they are no longer able to see, who are paying to bills. Their second problem is that they want to grow and expand their business at all costs because the shareholder's will not look favorably on them if profits do not continue to rise. So, in order to grow, they to expand their product line, and in order to do that, they need more liquid assets. And, to do that, they need to reduce their costs. Labor is their biggest fiscal drain, to they reduce the work force and/or hire cheaper labor. But, to do this correctly (over the long haul, or so they believe), they need to outsource all of their labor intensive processes to country's which have no child labor laws to get in the way of progress.I could go on, but I believe that everyone knows the rest of the story. In all of this, I am haunted by something I read long ago, or someone told me, I am not certain. But, that was this: It was our Native American's who observed that, "the white man invented greed." And, IMHO, it is greed that causes 'expanding' businesses to lose sight of that basic premise: Take good care of your customer's, and they will take care of you. These short-sighted companies are so overcome with greed that they forget this simple rule. Thus, they file for bankruptcy and everyone loses, the community, the employee's and their families, everyone. If I recall correctly, greed is also one of the Seven Deadly Sins. This begs the question: Why do successful businesses believe that in order to stay competitive they must continually grow and expand regardless of the costs involved?I must add that, yes, we do seek out the lowest prices, but it must be remembered that this means different things to different consumers. We both know of some shopper's who will drive all over the globe to save a dime, forgetting the tank of gasoline that it took to find that bargain. And, as you mentioned so succinctly, there are those 'irrational consumers' who keep some capitalists in the green in spite of their poor business practices.My personal views in all of this are probably much too simplistic for most tastes. Yet, looking at Lee Valley, it seems that they have a good grasp on human-relations as applied to the business model that each of us can relate to. Which is why this entire thread began in the first place.Thanks.
Adam Smith has indeed held up pretty well over the years. Another point worth mentioning to those that believe we've gone to hell in a hand basket. Publicly traded companies are also holding true to A. Smith. They have two market forces at work, their customers and their shareholders, both of whom are acting with self-interest front of mind. Shareholders push companies to optimize profits because in it's purest form the price of a share of stock is a proxy for future free cash flows. Do I wish that every business could be like Lee Valley, yeah sure. Having said that, the customer service shortcomings of other companies don't necessarily indict them as failures either.
interesting thread as i was at LV yesterday (OTTAWA STORE) some obsevations :
wat to buy one of their books you can sit in a easy chair and browse fore ever but try not to fall asleep , dont ask why i think of that on if your on the floor there are all kinds of knowledgable staff who will help you & a hell of a lot of them are fluently bilingual
if it isent in stock pay for it and they will ship it to you at their expense
you can see all their products on the floor in display cases most of which you can physically handle
they have a sale corner for current specials where i have bought things i may never use , hey i got a deal what can i say
their return policy is so easy a 2 year old kid could use it wth no trouble
the parking lot is neat and clen at all times which is not that common these days
all in all a well run business that Mr Lee can be proud of and his sun is carrying on the tradition for pop
The problem I see with the whole public traded company model is that the shareholders vote for the board, the board hires and compensates the CEO, and the CEO is typically in it for the short haul and to make the best bonus while he's there. I might not be so cynical if this hasn't happened twice at my company in the time I've been here. Five CEOs: one left with around 100 million bucks and one (along with several of his staff) has been fired and subsequently charged with fraud for manipulating the stock price. The bigger the company, the less sincere they appear to be (at least in hindsight).
No wonder companies like LV can look so good. Don't wish for them to go public. It would be ok with me if they didn't expand much further -- the home office is just down the road from me. :)
Andy
Wood,
Personally I don't think that Adam Smith was entirely correct in assuming that humans act in their own self interest. Because, of course, it depends on what is defined as a person's self interest. It is not easy to know how to act in order to achieve it, even if you do have an inkling of what it is.
We tend to acept what we're taught, that possesion of oodles of money is the fundamental emblem of self interest. But there are plenty of contradictory conditions that demonstrste that economic self interest is not the only kind. We go to war, sacrifice ourselves to family members, give our cash to churches or cults, etc., etc.. Everyone who does so tends to argue that their actions are, ultimately, in their own self interest. These interests are not all economic ones.
As Phillip mentions, simple greed (for money) on the part of some shareholders and their ilk gives rise to destruction of the community - sometimes even of those parts of the community that the shareholder enjoys. It is not easy to know what one's actual self interest (read: survive, prosper and be happy/content) actually is in terms of the choices we make to act (or not act).
****
One interesting thing to note is where capitalism comes from. It is not (as some believe) a universal mode that has always existed amongst humans; rather it is a development of Calvinist Protestanism that translates "I am doing well here on Earth" to "I am one of The Elect" (chosen for heaven, post rapture). It also contains a Protestant work ethic which believes that being busy making hay down here is some form of point-gathering in God's account book. (And being "idle" makes you a bad person unloved by God).
Of course, like all ideas, these initial concepts have evolved so that modern capitalism is left with "greed is good" and "work will make you happy" without the religious stuff. But these basic assumptions concerning greed and work are just that -assumptions, generated by some old religious culture now mostly defunct (except in the heads of various strange folk with starey eyes and little books clutched in their sweaty mits).
As Phillip's Native Americans mention, there are other modes of thinking and living.
One day capitalism will itself evolve further into something else entirely, as it meshes with other Big Ides that emerge and prosper in a global village. What will the new and dominant economic mode be? I've no idea. (And neither has anyone else). Certainly theones planned by various crazy philosophers tend to fail. (Never mind, Karl Marx; you weren't to know that reality is not deterministic clockwork, after all).
Meanwhile, we can be educated consumers, at least, and understand that it is probably in our own self interest to buy from the likes of LVand LN whilst eschewing the "goods"of various dross-makers and despoilers of the planet. In the long run,LV and LN behaviour may welldominate, as the greedy buggers elsewhere destroy their whole thang, in an orgy of money-lust.
Lataxe, not too greedy and definitely work-shy.
When a business is privately held, the personal satisfaction of being respected and even admired by your customers accrues to the owners. For some people, that probably means more than sqeezing out a few more marginal dollars. It must be nice for the owners of Lee Valley to read all the nice things we all say about the company. But in a big public company, the shareholders are only in it for the money and get no real benefit from whatever good reputation accrues to the business. The CEO is measured only in financial terms.
Edited 10/12/2007 8:55 am ET by smslaw
I had one unpleasant experience with them after I bought a set of Dado Blades. Being an amatuer woodworker, I wanted to be sure I was putting the set together properly so I wrote a letter to their Ottawa store requesting information and suggesting an instruction sheet be included with the dado set. The letter I received was not complementary; I guess we all have bad days. All dealings with LV since have been excellent. About a year after I received the dado set I wanted to use the 1/16" chipper and found that it was missing from the set. There were three 1/8" chippers but the set called for two. That was my fault in not checking the shipment when it arrived.
Leonard Lee
About five years ago he received 'The Order of Canada" a highly respected
hono(u)r depending on how you spell it. Being a tool junkie with an uncurable addiction I told him that I had to leave my wallet in the car when I went into Lee Valley so I could put food on the table. I sent Mr Lee an email and congratultaed him for the recognition. He replied thanking me for paying for his tuxedo rental.
Cheers
Malcolm
The problem is that by its very nature the stock market is dominate buy peaple that are gready, Thus if you get them involved they will do anything for quick money.
Companies that do not have public stock can worry about next year those that have to keep the stock market happy have to worry about next week. It is the nature of the beast.
But one way or the other LV is still about the best you will find.
Doug
Everybody is greedy. If someone says that they aren't, they are lying.
Ah, but things are not just black and white. Some people are more greedy than others. Otherwise, we would not have CEOs and politicians. Andy
Otherwise, we would not have CEOs and politicians.
hang on now... yer sayin that ye dinna have t be totally useless, illiterate, thick-as-a-plank and / or absolutely incompetent.... ye can qualify for the job by being greedy tooo....???
<sighs...
still no hope for me yet... Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Mike,
In most large (post)modern organisations, there are only two qualities needed to succeed and rise in the Vast Hierarchies:
* You want to (manifesting as greed, ambition, or some other monomania).
* An overwhelming sense of self-confidence despite the huge amount of evidence that such confidence is totally unjustified (unconscious incompetant).
Of course, possesion of the right ju-jus also helps - designer label clothes, expensive gas-guzzler, the ability to lick artfully whilst talking the latest management-speak (which must be devoid of all meaning except, "Yes sir you're right, slurp").
The modern world is full of wishful thinkers. But in this day and age wishes often come true, so daft blokes are in charge of stuff ev'where. However, the whole scene is indeed a fairy story in which nothing is real and the props are made of tinsel ..... except in little islands of the real, such as Lee Valley - Veritas indeed.
Welcome to the 21st century! (But soon we must all wake up)!!
Lataxe, enjoying The Spectacle, frightening though it is (like all good circuses).
Leonard Lee started a new company a few years back that while still privately held has about 5 investors. My fathers friend is one of those investors (it is the company that makes medical instruments) he has about one of each tool that Lee Valley owns and considers Mr. Lee to be one of his other closest friends. I hope to someday parlay this relationship into an opportunity to talk to him in detail about how his company operates. I did get a detailed story about Lee Valley purchased a veneer companies stock in France in the early 80's and France took him to court saying that a foreigner could not purchase a national treasure (stock of the company). The courts said if the govt. has an issue with it they could make the purchase. It was a big deal... Interesting conversation for sure...Drew
except in little islands of the real, such as Lee Valley - Veritas indeed.
and one or two other notable exceptions to "da norm", as I said...
<le sigh...
I suppose there's worse things in life to be than a mushroom...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Oresti,
You opine: "Everybody is greedy. If someone says that they aren't, they are lying".
Please let us have a list of all the other attributes that all humans have, even though you have met but a tiny portion of them all; and probably viewed those through your cynicspecs. It will tell us little about humanity but a lot about you. :-)
Lataxe
LataxeI could not have said it better myself. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Lataxe wrote:Please let us have a list of all the other attributes that all humans have, even though you have met but a tiny portion of them all; and probably viewed those through your cynicspecs. It will tell us little about humanity but a lot about you.
That was most concise and wisest response to a cynic I've seen in some time. Thanks Lataxe.
Myself, I would've gone on (and on) in my verbose way about definitions of "greed", etc. MikeTo the man with a hammer, all the world is a nail.
"People seem not to see that their opinion of the world is also a concession of their charecter." RW Emerson
I love that quote.
in all the years I've been buying anything from anywhere, I've only ever come across 3 genuine examples of companies who insist on 100% customer satisfaction (or yer money back).. LV, LN and Clifton... In no way am I saying that the list is that short, just making the observation that all 3 strive to satisfy our particular fetish...
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
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