I just purchased a low-angle jack plane from Lee Valley which I intend to use primarily for shooting miters and end grain. I was expecting the sides to be square to the bottom; however the sides are out of square by .002″ on one side and .003″ on the other (both sides lean inward).
Is this amount of error typical or do I have a good chance of getting a more accurately machined plane if I exchange it? I know I could compensate for the error by screwing around with masking tape etc., but for $200, I was hoping I wouldn’t have to.
Thanks for any experience of thoughts.
Replies
If you are dissatisfied, contact Lee Valley--they have some of the best customer service going. Tom
If I hesitate going through the cut on a shooting board I probably tilt or otherwise mess the cut more than 2 thou no matter how square the plane is.
If the wood sits after shooting more than a day, it probably moves more than 2 thou.
I probably do not own a plane which is better than a thou or two of square--LV, LN or vintage which I have fettled myself.
There is the ability to skew the iron--but you probably cannot get it within 2 thou even though the LV Norris-type adjuster is about the best.
That said, they will take it back no problem.
Take care, Mike
I'd contact LV. As others mentioned, LV has some of the best customer service you'll find anywhere.
If you decide not to return it (or it's within LV's stated specs), there is a technique explained on one of David Charlesworth's DVDs (Precision Shooting Simplified) wherein you can compensate for any misalignment of either your shooting board (fence) or of the plane/plane iron by using thin cardstock shims to get your piece of wood set exactly square (in all dimensions) to the plane and then trim it to length, etc. This technique might be of use to you.
Good luck!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Based on my dealings with Lee Valley, if you are disastisfied, they'll take it back, apologize, and offer a new plane or your money back.
I don't know whether that amount out of square is excessive, and I have to wonder what difference it would make, but I'm confident Lee Valley will try make it right.
The easiest way to correct the problem is to shim the raised section of the shooting board, the part the stock rests on, until the edge you are planing comes up square.
Actually trim and test the squareness a piece of wood, all measurements of the squareness of the plane's body are irrelevant, what you want, in the end, is a square planed surface. You may find that your slightly out of square plane already gives a square cut.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
I don't mean to be contentious. When was the last time any of you could measure your shooting board to that kind of accuracy? And, well, have you?
On a given day, I cannot attest whether my shooting board has both the channel the plane rides in and the surface the stock sits on to be that precisely level to each other. In fact, I never have.
2 thou across a 3/4" board is only...heck, someone smarter than I will need to figure the amount of deviation that represents, but it's not very much. No more than a little extra glue in a joint even with tight clamping.
I measure the thickness of steel a zillion times through the day. I can measure the same piece 3 times in a row and may deviate .5 thou to 1 thou just by squeezing a little too much. Of course, that's why I measure the thickness a few times.
Like BB, I would also contend 2 thou would be difficult to measure with an engineer's square and feeler gauges on the side of a plane. Not saying it isn't out that far, just that doing this by hand is extremely difficult.
2 thou across the thickness of a board when shooting is certainly correctable via the lateral adjuster. But I would also contend it is unnecessary. As is shimming a shooting board. Like John says: You may find that your slightly out of square plane already gives a square cut.
Take care, Mike
Mike , now I am laughing, as I posted a response then read yours. We are on the same page.
"2 thou across a 3/4" board is only...heck, someone smarter than I will need to figure the amount of deviation that represents, but it's not very much. No more than a little extra glue in a joint even with tight clamping."
The answer to that question is "precisely three quarters of five eigths of buggerall".
And I am not convinced that the plane is out of square either.
Seriously now, what do you use most when you need an accurate measurement- I assume you use digital calipers and may also use a micrometer of either digital or non digital type?Philip Marcou
Hi Philip...
The answer to that question is "precisely three quarters of five eigths of buggerall".
Now that was the best answer to the question I could have hoped for! It'll make me smile all day when I think about it.
I use analog calipers, recalibrated every three years or so unless dropped. They are close enough for my work these days. Different than the days they were used for engine rebuilds, where we had several sets always in rotation getting recalibrated.
I think the subject of preciseness in woodworking: in tool prep, sharpening, and the resultant work pieces is a fascinating one. To give you a hint on my take [not like I already haven't], Don't sweat the petty stuff.
Most "professional" makers I know who are not turning out multiples of a given widget have a more fluid relationship to sharp, to what is accurate, to the resultant piece than most non-professionals I know. This is only an observation, not anything more. Take sharpening, that oft debated subject. Or even a subset of that, stone flattening [let alone which sharpening method!]. Just how flat does a sharpening stone need to be to attain accurate and sharp edges on the tools one uses?
Ah well, it's 6:30 am here, time for one more cup of coffee and open the shop for the day. Take care, Mike
When I put the fence of the square on the sole of the plane and the blade of the square up the side, there is a sliver of light and I can feel the movement of the square when I rock it so the blade is flat against the side of the plane. I can do this with either my Starrett combination square or engineers square and the error I see and measure with feeler guage is the virtually the same.
I wouldn't set my table saw blade with this amount of error. I wouldn't set my jointer fence with this amount of error. And I don't tolerate this amount of error in my joinery either. And I certainly don't use "a little extra glue" to solve the problem.
So I'm not buying those responses that think this isn't a legitimate question or that I can't measure. Also, I don't want to try the plane to see how square it cuts because if I need to send it back, I don't want it to have any marks on the sole or side.
LV will take it back following a good and healthy trial, so no worries there.
The lateral adjuster will accomodate this error if it is within your ability to set it thus. Regarding this, one can have a "perfectly" square plane and still have that much error or more depending on one's ability to keep the blade that square to the sole.
Because of your concern, I would say simply to send it back. Trade for another or purchase someone else's plane you can find which is of a tolerance you can live with.
You are a better woodworker than I am if you can hold a joint to less than a couple thousandths of deviation.
I would have to read the thread again, but I don't remember anyone saying anything about the legitimacy of your inquiry. Just that at the end of the day, this amount of being out of true really doesn't matter.
Take care, Mike
well
It seems to me that you are unhappy.
Send it away and try LN number 9.
Neither LV nor LN keep an enemies list :-)Both companies have happily emptied
my wallet countless times and are willing
to take my complaints with a knowing
smile that in just a few months
my wallet will be ready for the
tapping :-)No you aren't being too picky. You happen to
want things a particular way. Send it back before it starts to annoy you
besides you will love the dedicated mitre plane.
M, at exactly which point in the length of you jointer fence is there accuracy to within less than 2 thou, and which tooth do you select for setting your saw blade, assuming zero run out on shaft and plate? (just a small joke).
It will niggle you unless you send it back,as others have suggested. Or you could go another route-get the Lie Nielsen #9.Philip Marcou
Philip,
If M wants a shooting plane with very exact tolerances, excellent function, redolent with beauty and made for the job, he could do a lot worse than buy one of your M20s. The one you sold me is a joy to use (and look at). A machinist's square reveals only perfect right angles, as far as these old eyes (+ the now necessary spectacles) can see.
The M20 is making my acquisition of handtool skills a very pleasant experience indeed (as is a Wenzloff dovetail saw, which I have been using today for the first time in anger; or rather, with a big smile on my face). No fettling or adjustments required with an M20, other than to set the gap and the blade depth. It is also a treat to be able to swap to low, mid or high angle blades in 30 seconds, for shooting different woods or grain orientation. It also makes a great backup smoother.
It may well be that there is an LV jack in their stock that is better cast and closer to the tolerances M requires. Or an LN. However, the jack is not really sold as a shooting plane - athough you could argue that any such plane should be capable of shooting.
But Mike is right to point out that the blade-skew mechanism of such a plane will easily correct for any tiny deviation of the plane body from 90 degrees. Even I know that and I am a plane novice!
In all events, you get what you pay for and even an LV or LN must be a comromise between cost of manufacture and price to the customer - even though they do provide very good quality indeed. I now have 4 LV planes and find them functionally excellent, even for a cack-handed novice like me. Then there's those LV scrapers and spokeshaves, not to mention.........[cutailed by the Taunton Anti-Bore Police].
Lataxe
are you sure you did't want to be a machienist they make more money and go home at 5 oclock . just kidding
Use a good chop saw with a good blade ;it both saves time and money. I only use my planes where hand impressions can be seen and appreciated by my clients.
>> Use a good chop saw with a good blade ;it
>> both saves time and money. I only use my
>> planes where hand impressions can be seen
>> and appreciated by my clients.Where to start... ?* I don't have a chop saw* I (from choice) don't use (noisy!) power tools* I use hand tools for the simple pleasure of the act itself* I don't have clients to please BugBear
You have trully been blessed.
How did you measure that error? That's impressive metrology!
BugBear
I used an engineer's square and feeler gauges.
I had the same problem a couple of years ago with a LV plane so I don't think it's that unusual. I tuned the plane up and sold it to someone else who didn't care about the very slight squareness problem. I decided to buy another plane rather then take a chance but I know LV has excellent customer service and I'm sure they will take care of the problem for you.
There was a posting to a UK woodworking forum, that I cannot now recall the URL for, in which one "Alf" tested tools, including Lee Valley planes. She (for Alf is a she) found the same slight out-of-square as you do.
In that forum, Mr Lee hisself made a detailed reply to Alf's test and (as I remember) pointed out that the plane is not sold as a shooting plane; but that the degree of out-of-squareness was in fact insignificant to shooting edges well, in any case.
He also said something like, you can have a perfet plane if you want to pay the many hundreds of dollars more for the perfect manufacturing process.
All this is a mere recollection, by the way; so may not be an accurate representation of Mr Lee's views. But if someone could find that UK forum and that thread, it would be usefull to the issue raised here.
Lataxe
I recall the thread, and the arguements... but after trawling through almost 70 poages of archived threads I'm damned if I can find it...
forum is here...
http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/index.phpMike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Was this the response?
http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=80362#80362
Full thread is an interesting read anyway.
Take care, Mike
Come on guys, the ring is about to be torn.....
Firstly the perceived error has been perceived via the wrong means, if one is really frantic to find an error: just because it is an engineers square does not mean it is 100 percent accurate, neither is squinting at it by eye, neither is squeezing feeler gauges into gaps reliable.
To get a reliable result one requires a dial test gauge and a surface marking plate- THEN we can decide on the significance or otherwise of two or three thousandths of a freaking inch.
Shimming a shooting board?? What's wrong with lateral adjuster?
Wood is wood-every piece is different, unlike steel and we should be pleased.Philip Marcou
That looks like the lost likely thread that fits the bill - I can't honestly recall anything on side-to-sole squareness on a shooting plane otherwise. There was some discussion on one of the shoulder planes I think; a horrible case of the reviewer* looking for something, anything, to pick up on and thus give the impression that they were paying attention.Cheers, Alf*Guess who? Learnt a lot from that review; like "don't do them"... ;)
Lat, I think Mike has come up with the very post lurking in the mists of your mind.
I also think that the meaning of one or three thou has to be established .
If one has reliably confirmed an inaccuracy in the order of a few thou then one should know that this amount of steel can be removed with a scraper quite easily- (I hesitate to mention the dreaded abrasive papers glued with non lumpy glue to glass etc). But the trick is to get a reliable measurement.Philip Marcou
I just purchased a low-angle jack plane from Lee Valley which I intend to use primarily for shooting miters and end grain. I was expecting the sides to be square to the bottom; however the sides are out of square by .002" on one side and .003" on the other (both sides lean inward).
First off, the LV LA Jack has a wonderful reputation for use on the shooting board. I have one and it performs exactly as one would wish. Anything less than this and Lee Valley will replace it without question.
I believe that the sides of mine are square, and that a deviation of .002" is significant. For reference, .002" represents a moderately fine shaving. Unless you plan to use the plane on both sides of a shooting board, then only one side needs to be square.
Actually, that last sentence is not exactly correct. It is not necessary for the plan'es body to be square. It is, instead, necessary for the cutting edge of the blade to be square. So the question is, can you square the cutting edge to the work?
Regards from Perth
Derek
I think you have two choices (other than having the plane reground at a machine shop).1. You can shim the plane in your shooting board and check for square with a try square.2. You can return it and puchase a plane that is specifically designed for (and to the tolerances of) a shooting board. The LN Iron Miter plane (based on the Bailey #9) would probably be a good candidate, although it is pricey.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
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