Today at the woodworking show over at Sports Plus I tried a few planes.
LV Veritas 5 1/4 Bench plane and a 4 1/2 smoothing plane. I liked them both but the bench plane has a longer sole. But I can’t decide and tomorrow the show leaves.
I also looked at a Lie-Neilsen. That was all I could do was look as they had no way to play. EXPENSIVE.
LV also has a nice Veritas Joiner fence for many planes.
I would like them all, but $$$
Now if only I could decide! Can you?
GTF
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Replies
Yup, piece of cake; neither.....
All my bench planes are Pre War Stanley's with the exception of a #4 Clifton and a #6 Stanley. Didn't pay more than $30 for most of the Pre War Stanley's (paid $50 for the #3).
I've used a few L-Ns. Funny thing, the results are exactly the same....
Dano
Thanks Dan,
I do like that advice, but I can't find any good used tools. Here
on the Island I haven't found any good used tool stores. At the show the prices marked on some of the used planes were, lets just say,
I'd rather buy new.
Maybe somebody here has a plane or 2 to sell me?
GTF
Try eBay. There are many old Stanley planes listed. I have purchased quite a number of them over the past few years and have had very good luck getting good, user planes.
Ken
Get Garrett Hacks book on planes....GREAT Info
And replace all your Blades with Hock Blades..Instant Improvement
I use them in my Stanley planes they are well worth the money
I do have a LV low angle block plane, Love it, Lee Valley makes nice planes for the money
The last two posts have given me great pause. Why should I buy a Stanley if I have to spend more money for a better blade and spend time
tuning it up when I could or should of purchased the LV.
Maybe I'll just go buy a Sears surface planner. :-)
Ok maybe not. I wonder if LV will still sell me a plane tomorrow
at the show special? Decissions, decission.
GTF
Aha! You haven't gotten the Stanley yet!
Ok. Then I'll go full bore on selling you on the Veritas.
Fantastic plane, right out of the box it is beautifully finished and fitted, it has a truly innovative design in the movable frog and blade. The blade itself is nice and thick. And the price is excellent. You don't want to buy a plane and be unhappy with it next year or next month. Buy the Veritas planes and they'll serve for a lifetime. Jeez, you could buy two Veritas for the price of one LN.
End of hardball sales pitch!
Good luck with your decision.
tom
GTFabbiani,
Old Stanleys will not give the same results as the the Veritas, even if you tune them thoroughly. The Veritas is nearly twice the weight and has an iron that is twice as thick. These two characteristics give far better results than can be acheived with Stanleys, hands down. Also, the Veritas adjusts to different cutting tasks much quicker and easier and you are assured that the iron is fully supported when you make changes to the depth of cut and throat opening. The ease of adjustment makes it more practical to have one plane for both removing large amounts of wood and final smoothing.
It can be a pleasure to restore an old plane to working order, but be prepared to do alot of work just to get acceptable results. If your time is worth anything to you, you will pay for the cost of a Veritas over a Stanley (old or new) many times over. Recommending one brand over another is something I would rarely do because personal tastes differ so much, however, the Veritas is a good plane at a good price. No, I don't own stock in the company.
I will agree with you and IRONDOG....(get the Veratis If you don't already have The Stanley planes)..I will eventually get some too.
GTFabbiane,
FWIW, in 40 years I've fettled a significant number of planes and used Stanley's, Keen Cutters, Miller Falls, Sargent, L-N, and Clifton.....The results are always the same.
Firstly, if they have been used before (particularly Pre War planes), I've found that about the only fetteling that needs to be done is to knock the rust off, sharpen, and hone the iron....it doesn't take "hours"...
Secondly, weight of the plane has nothing to do with the quality of the cut, the iron's angle of attack, it's condition, and setting does. All metallic bench planes, with the exception of L-N's new #4 1/2 and the old Norris planes, are bedded at 45°. Mass of a hand plane may make it "easier" to use on difficult woods because of momentum but, certainly not the quality of the cut.
As mentioned , Garret Hack's The HANDPLANE Book will give you a complete understanding of handplanes, their cutting geomtry, use, etc. etc.
If it is a new plane that you want, a Stanley (UK) may or may not require some sole flattening, it's kinda hit or miss with them. Vertias and Clifton would be other options as well. Bottom line is regardless of who the manufacturer is, some fetteling will be required.
Dano
"Form and Function are One" - Frank L. Wright
My apologies to Mr. Jennings and I certainly can't claim forty years of fettling. but....
Go to this woodworking show you mentioned was happening in your area. Take a few pieces of wood. Some soft, medium, hard and maybe even some squirrley figured stuff.
Walk up to the booth where the Stanleys are sold and say, "I'd like to try your planes out on this stuff."
Repeat process at LN and Veritas.
Your conclusion will be ( I'll predict ),
Damn this LN is sweet and pretty!
Damn this Stanley sure is cheap!
Damn this Veritas sure is sweet and kinda pretty and doesn't cost a arm and leg!
Maybe there are pre-war Stanleys out there that are the Cat's Meow but when I need a plane I don't want to go on a quest.
I just want one block plane a couple bench and a shoulder and have them work for my whole life and be done with it.
Veritas gives you that (no shoulder plane yet!).
Tom
PS. don't own stock but would if i could. hmmm might check that out! ;-)
Tom,
No need to apologize; differences are what these forums are "all about." There is no question that Lie-Nielsen represents the state of the art in metalic plane making and that they are finely crafted tools.
Judging from what I've heard and read about the current crop of Stanley (UK) and Record what you say might be true; given that the Stanley rep didn't "tune" the demos.
Both Clifton and Lie-Nielsen claim their planes are ready to go right out of the box, not true. At the very least their irons will have to be sharpened and honed.
If I needed a bench or block plane, I can walk into any one of at 3 or 4 antique stores in the little town of Klamath Falls and obtain one....Point is, the question was asked if there are alternatives to Lie-Nielsen and Vertias and that answer would be "yes". Don't forget with the exception of the new L-N #4 1/2 (York pitch) and the #140 (fence), their planes are patterned exactly after Stanleys.....
Somewhere in here, there are numerous discussions on handplanes and Stanley in particular, I even did a "review" of a Clifton #4 I purchased last spring and a Stanley #4, if you're interested.
As I've said before; the "name" of the tools one uses aren't impressive. What impresses me is the finished piece....
Dano"Form and Function are One" - Frank L. Wright
while not trying to get a rouse out of you dano, i found it humorous that you include that LNs are state of the art, but they are modeled after pre war stanely BRs. Kinda funny.
(dont take into consideration that they have been improved with cryo irons and a few other improvements)
Bill, Yeah, it does read like an oxymoron doesn't it? ;-)
What I meant was that in terms of craftsmanship and materials, they represent the "state of the art".
GTFabbiani, I think you are a tad confused. Bench planes refer to #1-#8s. #1 - #4 1/2 are the smoothers, #5 - #5 1/2 are the jacks, #6 is the fore plane, #7 - #8 are the jointers.
Dano
"Form and Function are One" - Frank L. Wright
Edited 4/23/2002 6:40:39 PM ET by Danford C. Jennings
"GTFabbiani, I think you are a tad confused. Bench planes refer to #1-#8s. #1 - #4 1/2 are the smoothers, #5 - #5 1/2 are the jacks, #6 is the fore plane, #7 - #8 are the jointers."
confused, yep and a little overwhelmed also, but learning.
The problem I have is that there are so many different planes and
different manuifactures and no place to try them. Except at the show and only one brand was available to try, Veritas. I can't even find a local store to go even just see and pickup the planes to see
how each one feels. That's why all the questions. Sorry. I also can't find any good reviews on planes either. I guess it's not like testing "electric" tools. And how I hate making a bad choice, which is easy
buying on pictures and specs alone. Home Depot, Dynamite Tools, Woodworkers Warehouse only carry the shorter bench planes.
A jointer seems to be what I am looking for. The Record #07 now seems it should be my choice.
Thanks
Never fear! I picked up a brand new Record #7 at a garage sale, and after a while tuning and experimenting it turned out to be a fine tool--however pedestrian its pedigree might be. But then I got the Clifton iron and two-piece back iron for it and it turned into a sports car. The difference was startling. So don't be afraid to buy the Record; I've found it to be a good plane. Then, if you want it to be an even better plane get it the Cifton irons.
Alan
GTFabbiani,
If this is your first bench plane, I would highly receommend that you start with a jack, #5, it will give you more versatility. Set up with a straight bezel on the iron with slightly radiused corners it can be used as a smoother, light thicknessing, and even a jointer on shorter stock. Truely the "jack" of all bench planes....FWIW.
Dano"Form and Function are One" - Frank L. Wright
I have to agree with you on this one Dano. A good jack plane is a true jack-of-all-trades tool. I go for my jack first before any other plane in my collection. All my planes were either hand me downs or stuff picked up in flea markets. If you know what you should look for in a plane than you can find some real good deals.Scott C. Frankland
Newfoundland Wood Worker
GT,
I have the Record #7 as well as a Record #5, and I find them more than capable of truing edges and preparing longer stock. The Jack is very handy with a fence.
Chris
Alright then. I missed out now on the show price for the LV Veritas
but at least I had a chance to try them. They had 2 there for using. Not L-N, they were show only, but you could touch them. At home
downtairs I played around with my Stanley G12-204. I can't notice
any difference other then looks and adjustability. LV does sell Record.
If I get good results (for me anyway) with me homeowner grade Stanley
how bad can a Record be? One thing I have to consider is that the Record #07 joiner sells for $109 at LV as opposed to the much shorter
veritas bench plane for $175. My main use for the plane would be as a jointer and smoothing large boards.
Ok, after checking some prices on used planes and taking some advice
from around her, I'm taking the plunge. A shallow one. I am
ordering a Stanley 12-905 from Amazon.com. The only place I could find
that had any info on them. It's a conytractor grade unit so maybe it'll be good enough. No LV or LN but a lot cheaper.
Thanks
GTF
Well. my vote was for the Veritas but since you have decided to go for the Stanley and have saved a bunch, I think you should spend some of the savings.
Replace the blade, get a Hock replacement blade, or a clifton replacement cap and blade combo. Most of the blades on low end planes are not too hot, thin and prone to chatter.
Also you should expect to spend a number of hours tuning the Stanley to get it working well. Lapping the sole, flattening the cap etc.
If you don't know about all that stuff there are sure to have been a number of threads about it.
Good luck,
Tom
You may want to consider the E.C.E. Primus planes. Considering their high quality, they are relatively inexpensive. $200 for a jointer, $165 for a smoother; even less if you decide on a wedge model as opposed to those with a mechanical adjustment. See Garrett Hack's comments in his review of smoothing planes, FWW #136. They are available from David Warren Direct or Highland Hardware.
Kyle if you want to talk about wooden planes then I have to put a plug in for Steve Knight's Hand planes. I bought two of them on eBay and have been nothing but happy with there performance. The 1/4" thick blade does not chatter and if it does than I would want you on my side in the next bar fight. The link to his web page is below.
http://www.knight-toolworks.com/
Scott C. Frankland
Newfoundland Wood Worker
Scott,
I agree with you 100% about Steve's planes. Once I got to my shop this morning, I realized I was remiss in not mentioning Knight Toolworks. I guess I was just thinking of planes with mechanical adjustments when I brought up Primus. I'm not sure everyone is comfortable with wedge set planes. If you are willing to try wedge set planes, Steve's planes are awesome. As you mentioned, the irons are very thick. The mouths are very small, reducing the risk of tear out. Plus, his prices are very reasonable; making them among the best values out there.
Cheers,
Kyle
Scott, and others.
I looked at both the ECE and the Knights. Both looked interesting.
They both cost more then a steel Record #07 jointer. Being made of
wood can they really be durable? The knight is a few dollars more then the ECE but looks like it might be worth it. Also whats the difference
between the Ipe or a Vera sole on the Knight? The vera sole is more expensive so I assume it's more durable? The knight can also be ordered with an extra 3 lbs weight, that seems like a good idea.
Wow! I can't beleive that I'm now looking at a wood plane, see what you guys have done to me already? :-) I haven't even been here that long.
Next you'll have me making furniture. I am going to stay with my Stanley no. 4 smoothing plane because I don't have any problems with it, but I will order a beter blade for it. Hocks?
George
"Being made of wood can they really be durable?"
I've been watching this thread and biting my tongue a little but this is a question that needs to be answered.
The simple fact is that wooden planes are every bit as durable as metal planes. Wood is, in fact, a better material for planes than metal.
Let me explain. Roll any old metal plane over and, if it's had much use at all, you'll find the leading edge of the mouth worn and rounded. This is the most critical area of the sole and without a crisp mouth you'll never be able to set a tight mouth opening. Look at the cap iron of the plane and you'll see a curved and worn front. The reality is that metal wears and relatively quickly in situations like a hand plane. Metal wears where heat builds up and this is in thin areas and at edges.
Probably the most graphic example of this I can think of is to look back at the West ward population migration in the US just after the Civil War. Metal work was relatively advanced at that point and common products ranged from toys to watches to sewing machines to locomotives. Yet when a man loaded his family and most precious possessions in a wagon and headed West he depended on real wear properties rather than intuition. His journey's success, failure or even his survival depended on the durability of that wagon. Now look at the wheels of that wagon. The bearings and axels were made of wood even though the wheel had a number of metal parts including tires.
The reason for this is that the thermal instability of steel and iron result in poor wear properties. Steel or iron for bearings had to wait for the invention of ball or roller bearings where, with proper lubrication, friction and heat could be eliminated. BYW, when you break down your wood working equipment and clean bearings, NEVER spin a dry or unlubricated bearing--you'll shorten its life and take it out of tolerance.
So you're saying, "What about all those old worn wooden planes I've seen?" Wooden planes will require some seasonal tuning and the traditional method of tuning a wooden plane is with another plane. If one plane in a shop has moved slightly as a result of seasonal humidity changes it's likely all the planes in the shop have moved too. So an out of tune plane is used to tune another. Not a great deal of material would ever need to be removed but trying to work planes together to make them all flat requires removing a lot of material. The vast majority of what's attributed to wear is actually ham-fisted tuning.
Planing wood is an abrasive operation. Wear of a plane sole is a fact of life but, when the surface exposed to this is something as large as a plane sole, wood will wear better than iron or steel. If it's a small area subjected to this wear, like a spoke shave, then metal has some advantages. This is all counter intuitive but true.
Now you get to laminated wooden planes or even planes with laminated soles. Is there an advantage? I don't think so. First you're dealing with different expansion and contraction ratios of different woods or grain structure. Then you're adding an impermeable layer of glue inside the plane that inhibits moisture movement. This is a guaranteed route to instability. Traditional plane woods, especially beech, have good wear properties; why invite problems?
As to the original question of Lie-Neilsen or Lee Valley, I don't have a good answer. Contrary to what's been said in this thread, the design of Lee Valley's plane isn't new. I wish I could remember the name of the plane company from the past that had a similar design, but I can't. I can say that there have been a number of metal planes with different cutting geometry than common pitch. While Norris and Spiers usually had their irons bedded at 47.5º there were other British infill planes that were made at a true York pitch (50º) or even middle pitch (55º). A lot of metal planes had steeper bed angles in the past and the Auburn Metallic Plane Company in New York even offered a variable bed angle plane. I've never had a Lee Valley smooth plane in my hands so I don't have a good comparison. I do know that Lie-Nielsen makes good tools. I'd be inclined to go with the Lie-Nielsen and pay the extra money for the softer but better wearing bronze planes.
Edited 4/24/2002 11:12:27 PM ET by Larry Williams
Hi Larry,
Interesting response.
I do have a couple comments.
First I don't think that the LN planes use bronze for the soles very often if ever, I believe they use ductile iron just like the Veritas.
So the bronze would not affect the wear factor.
And I would be interested to hear of the earlier manufacturer that had a design where the entire blade, frog, cap assembly moves together as in the Veritas plane.
That is the innovation in their plane.
Since all the parts move together the support of the iron's edge is continuous and constant.
As stated before in this thread I believe it is the best plane of it's type on the market today.
Humbly yours,
Tom
Tom you are correct in saying that LV planes are the only company to ever make a frog like theres. But there are several planes out there that support there blades right to the sole and use adjustable toe to change the opening mouth. LV's design while being a very good one (I have used LV and LN planes and the LV is a better buy) is in my mind a new way of doing something that has all ready been done.Scott C. Frankland
Newfoundland Wood Worker
Here's a link to two similar but earlier planes. http://www.jhorobin.freeserve.co.uk/unusualplanes.htm
Look closely at the Narex. The frog/tote design is almost exactly the same but the adjustment method is slightly different and doesn't include the Norris style iron adjuster. Though, most who've used Norris adjusters agree they leave a lot to be desired.
I should add that the Narex is a British plane that pre-dates the Veritas by about 30 years.
Edited 4/25/2002 9:17:50 AM ET by Larry Williams
Tom,
If I can find time tomorrow, I'll spend a little time in Roger Smith's Patented Transitional and Metallic Planes in America to try and find the information on the similar but earlier plane. Actually, all Bailey style planes have frogs that move with the iron, cap iron and lever cap move with the adjustment. All but the early Bedrock style planes were adjustable with out removing the iron. There was an earlier American that included the tote in the equation, just like the Lee Valley. I'll try to get the details on that tomorrow. My Partner has both volumes of Smith's books at the shop.
Lie-Nielsen's bronze planes have cast bronze bodies including their soles.
Paul Jordan who owns and runs a large machine shop as well as being an accomplished wood worker once posted a comparison of a number of different smooth planes including the Lee Valley. The occasion for the post was that he'd just received his Lee Valley plane. You can find it at http://www.wwforum.com/htools/archive14/28371.html
Hi Larry,
Thanks for looking for earlier plane designs like the Veritas.
I think I did not explain the innovation well so I took this from their website.
>>>>
"Our smoothing plane introduces a completely new concept in bench planes, a frog that extends all the way to the sole of the plane.
Not only is this the most effective design to reduce blade chatter (by providing complete blade support), but it allows a user to quickly adjust the mouth as required. It can be closed to a narrow slit for fine shavings with minimum tear-out, or opened for heavier cuts. All of this is done without having to remove the lever cap or anything else from the plane; simply loosen a pair of screws and dial the desired opening with a thumbwheel. The carefully machined fit between frog and sole makes the process fast and accurate."
<<<<<
And the attached picture shows the difference as well. More support for the iron all the way to the base.
Tom
Tom,
The Stanley Bedrock design, and most other planes for that matter, support the iron all the way to the beginning of the bevel on the back of the iron. What's important is how well the iron mates the bed of the frog or plane. I'm sure the Veritas irons are bedded well but then so are Lie-Nielsen's. Stanleys and Records can take some tricky tuning to get well bedded irons rather they're old or new.
Lee Valley has a good sales pitch and, from what I hear, some decent planes. It's fine to chew on their bait but don't swallow it without really looking at it critically.
Hi Larry, I "swallowed" the sales pitch some time ago and bought the Veritas 4 1/2 and think it's great ( see earlier comments in thread). I was trying to get Mr. Fabbiani, who started this thread to buy one!
But, thanks for your comments.
Tom
PS. To GTFabbiani-
I'll bet you never thought you would get this kind of response but that's the great thing about these forums. For you I'm sure it is very confusing. Of course there is no right answer. Certainly I am pushing what I like. The Veritas planes. I won't push Lie-Nielsen due to the expense. But if you buy an old Stanley on ebay or in a flea market and tune it and buy a replacement hock blade you'll be very happy. Just make a choice and dive in!
Tom, actually, Lie-Nielsen uses maganese bronze for their smoothing planes (optional), low angle and regular angle block triming planes, side rabbets, #66, #95, #97, and #140.
As a general comment; while there are occasions where Larry and I disagree I do have an extremely high regard for his expertise as a plane maker, many consider Clark & Williams to be the premeir wooden plane makers in the country.
I highly recommend a visit to his site, http://www.planemaker.com
Dano"Form and Function are One" - Frank L. Wright
Larry I have to agree with you 100%. But I do have to add a little info on the laminated planes. I do agree that laminated woods do tend to act like bimetallic strips and will bend out of shape with the changing of the moisture level. But if you submerge the laminated wood into the finish inside an airtight chamber and then draw a vacuum. This removes the air and some of the moisture from the wood and replaces it with the finish. This gives a very deep penetrating finish that helps to stabilize the wood.
Also with the sole of the plane being made out of a woods like Ipe, Cocobolo or Vera it provides the planes sole with a more durable sole than the primary wood. These woods also have natural oils that reduce the friction between the work surface and the sole. But because the soles are only a 1/4" thick for the most part they have very little affect in causing distortion in the over all body of the plane.Scott C. Frankland
Newfoundland Wood Worker
Scott,
There are woods that are pressure treated with resins for added stability like Dymond Wood. This process does limit dimensional changes that result from humidity but the volume of the resins involved means the material now has the properties of the resins. One of the properties of these plastic resins is thermal instability. Warm one side and it expands which makes it unsuitable for planes or at least planes where a flat sole is important.
Wood is wood. You can slow moisture exchange with ambient air but you can't stop it. Traditional wooden planes were designed to encourage moisture flow but remain shape stable. Let the wood move but keep the shape. Wooden planes evolved so that they didn't fight the natural properties of wood--just like we do when we build things with it.
Even a thin lamination will affect that stability of the plane unless it's attached with an adhesive that allows considerable cold creep. I don't think this is the case with the planes in question.
The dense woods you mention make poor planes because moisture exchange with ambient air is too slow. The plane never stops moving. Traditional beech changes MC quickly and any seasonal movement happens as the ambient humidity changes. Wear is less an issue with traditional beech than with the plane's iron. I use planes daily and most of them are wooden planes. What do you gain by using a heavy dense wood that changes moisture content slowly when the biggest wear issue with a beech plane is the cutting edge and top of the iron.
As wood workers, I think it's important we learn the properties of the materials we work with. Wood is pretty good stuff and has the added benefit of looking good and having a wonderful tactile quality.
George,
As you noticed, Steve Knight offers choices for his soles. Ipe is standard, and vera is an upgrade. I have a jointer plane with the vera sole. I have a coffin smoother on order with a vera sole, so I think the upgrade is worth it. Vera may be harder than ipe. It is definitely slicker. The jointer plane that I have is plenty heavy, so I would not bother paying for the extra weight upgrade.
I will not tackle your question about the wear qualities of wooden planes, since Larry Williams has already responded to that question with more information than I can provide. He is among the foremost authorities on planemaking; especially wooden planes. He is one of the proprietors in the Clark & Williams planemaking company. They can be located at http://www.planemaker.com. I have not used one of their planes, but they are supposed to be outstanding. Their price points are higher than Steve Knights; but not out of line. Now that I am a wooden plane fan, they are definitely on my wish list.
Cheers,
Kyle
The latest popular Woodworking magazine ( the opposition) April 2002 Issue #127 has an article on Jack Planes which should answer some of your questions.
It gives editors choice to the Lie-Nielsen - no surprises. It does not asses the Veritas. It recommends as best value a vintage Stanley Type 11, then buy an aftermarket blade and tune the plane. The article also has some information on how to tune a plane.
In the end it all depends how much money you are prepared to spend.
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