I have the opportunity to pick up a gently used Leigh D4 jig at a nice price. The question: can anyone out there speak to the improvements between the D4 and the D4R? I’m looking at about a $175 price difference – is the D4R $175 improved? It’s all subjective, I know, but still….. Thanks.
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Replies
I see a price difference between the D4R and the 1600, but the more expensive jig is 24" versus 16" for the cheaper.
I have a 20 y.o. D4 jig and it works just dandy. The improved speed clamps and square stops were needed, but I think they are standard now.
Get the jig, you won't regret it.
Learn how to hand cut dovetails, like I'm doing. Unless your going to make a million drawers all the same size.
My D4 is gathering dust; but is should actually be recycled and made into something more usefull. Like a hammer, that I can wack myself with before deciding to buy that next "must have" tool.
Set up time is a real "Pain In Buttox" and way to aggravating!
Less is More ! Now; Let me tell you how I really feel. "Don't buy it !"
you'll be sorry !
seems as though you're a bit a fence about what he should do? :)
If only our visions of grandeur had a bit of reality built in; we'd save ourselves a lot of $$, effort and time.
Old to quick ! Smart to late !
oh so true on age and wisdom, i see the truth in that myself. by the by, i'm learning to hand cut dovetails as well. i decided to go back to some wood boxes for my family at xmas this year. guess what, the d4 is back out and doing a fine job of it after some aggrevation with lining up the corners or lack there of. it takes work to use the leigh and i've not found it to be foolproof. i've kinda thought from the start that there might to something wrong with my jig. i've gotten by though. i still enjoy seeing some of my earlier projects done with the leigh. one in particular that has angled sides with dovetails joining the parts. hopefully my skills will progress with practice and i'll make some with hand cut joints to my liking.
perhaps you would post a pic of your favorite project highlighting your hand cut dovetails?
take care,
greg
da Vinci and gadgets ????????????????Come on! This is the guy that invented the parachute before they even had airplanes -- he is the king of gadgets.Give him an airbrush and he would have invented t-shirts!
Now THAT was funny ajoe. Actually, there was a terrific PBS show on DaVinci and you are correct. It was news to me that he was quite the inventor of an incredible number of "newfangled" devices. If you told me that they had found a drawing for the first oxpowered router, it would not surprise me.
All the best,
Bob
My advice is buy it. I love mine!
Sure, you can cut dovetails by hand but you can also carve totem poles and fell red oaks with a with a jackknife but why? A well handmade dovetail and a well made machine dovetail are indistinguishable by the vast majority of the population! Too many ww'ers think they should charge $5000 for an item because it has hand cut dovetails. Fine, if is to be an accurate museum piece. Otherwise, if you want, machine cut them.
Not all woodworkers are trying to make a living off of their handiwork. Some just love woodworking -- even with machines. I strongly believe if the craftsmen of 200 or 300 years ago had routers and dovetail jigs, they would have used them!!!! If you want to handcut dovetails, by all means, do it. But if you want to use a jig and router, then by all means, do it.
Groucho - I know how to hand cut dovetails - thanks.
Question remains - aside from the cam lock, is there a big difference between the D4 and the D4R? Thanks.
Question remains - aside from the cam lock, is there a big difference between the D4 and the D4R? Thanks.
No. The differences include the miachined-in side stops on the D4R (vs. the adjustable one on the D4), and the extra bits the D4R comes with. 'nto worth an extra $175, IMHO, as the quality of the work one can do, and the ase at which one can do it, are identical.
I like mine alot, and to be honest don't understand those who say the instructions are "too complicated". If someone finds reading a half-dozen, very well-written, large print pages before doing a through dovetail to be a difficult task, then they must be having a difficult time through life.
Thank you for addressing the question at hand.
It's one thing to be passionate about what you like and how you do it, it's another to come off as a jerk stating your opinions.
All the guy wanted to know was what is the difference between the 2 versions.
Luckily someone had the brains to answer him with the facts.
This is how "festool user group" arguments start.
Why can't people just get an answer to their question anymore?
Lee
Thank you, mapleman, your post describes my view to a tee.
-robert
Why can't people just get an answer to their question anymore?
this one is rhetorical, i believe. that struck my sense of humor :) your point is also understood.
thanks for the smile,
greg
Edited 12/7/2006 6:11 pm ET by gmoney
Masterpieces are created by using experience, skill, mind and heart; with hand tools as well as power. All the very best "Masters" do not use D4 jigs to make their dovetails.
I doubt if Leonardo DaVici would have used an air brush; even if it were available!
I doubt very much if many true masters follow Knots. We are woodworkers -- not masters. Some are very good, some are beginners. And if the very best did use a D4, in a hundred years, we would be saying "WOW, can you believe that "Groucho" was able to cut all those dovetails using a D4 and did not use the Turbo Plasma Laser duplicator 608 Extra!"
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
You are wrong sir !!
Find reply 32893.4 by Mr.Rob Millard, a responce to "bandsaws".
Click on his link; "There you will find the masterpieces of a genuine "Master !"
I dare say " I'll guarantee you, that Mr. Millard did not produce these masterpieces using a D4 jig !"
Opinions are like a------s everone has one. Say would you like to buy a D4 just like new?????????????????????????
Groucho,
Before one emphatically states a person is wrong, they should completely evaluate their own position and read carefully the post to which they are responding.
I said "I doubt very much if many true masters follow Knots." I stand by my statement and do not appreciate your rudeness.
Secondly, Mr.Rob Millard states on the opening page of his web: I specialize in museum quality reproductions of American Furniture from the Federal period. My pieces are handcrafted one at a time, using individually selected lumber and veneer, the highest quality hardware, and are carefully finished. The defining feature of my work, are the inlays and bandings, which I make in my shop. By making these in much the same way as a period cabinetmaker would have, I'm able to achieve that appealing individuality, which is the hallmark of the originals.
Mr. Millard is very clear he does museum quality reproductions. Again, I doubt there are many on Knots who can make claims equal to his!
If you disagree, then that is your privilege but you have shown a total lack of class by stating: "You are wrong sir !!"
And yes, I have a D4 and use it. End of storyA bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
Sometime people mistake the truth (something they don't care to hear) with rudness.
I am also retired and old enough to respond to you rhetoric defending the attributes of gadgets.
"Sometime people mistake the truth (something they don't care to hear) with rudness." Rude is rude. It serves no purpose.
Certainly true! Simply put, if one can not take it; one should not give it. Or is this just a place for monologue; and not dialogue!
Dialogue is a process where one actually has an intent to communicate ideas, usually to inform and perhaps persuade.
A basic concept of communication is to deliver or convey the message in a manner that it is likely to be received, reflected upon, digested, and considered. Usually the addition of rudeness, or basic lack of respect for the other person simply as an individual, blocks the reception of the idea and instead elicits a visceral response.
If one really wants to communicate, and participate in a dialogue (rather than simply rant in their own monologue), it would seem that respect for the other would be the order of the day.
JMHO;YMMV
Edited 3/7/2007 1:32 pm by stpatrick
With hesitation, I must admit I laughed out loud at this "dialogue" when reading some of the responses to groucho. Your response was elegant.The fact is, however, I don't turn to this forum for laughs or to read yahoo comments.It was not until I bothered to look at "options" (ignore this author, etc.) and put them to use that I was able to renew my interest in this forum. There are many excellent questions (some sophisticated and others not) and some extraordinary answers.(It's unfortunate that there's so little use of the spell check.)
"All the very best "Masters" do not use D4 jigs to make their dovetails."
No offense intended but I doubt you could support that statement. It is a matter of preference. I think the best option is have the option. Buy the D4 -- I love mine. If the work calls for handmade dovetails -- use a dovetail saw. Otherwise, use your D4 to gain a few extra minutes to refine your finishing techniques.
In my opinion if you consider set up time for the D4 there is no time saved. On the other hand if you have many drawers to make; it may be worth the fuss.
Each to their own. I don't particularly care for it at all. I would never recommend one to a friend, that's all.
Sometimes the journey is better than the destination !
"I doubt if Leonardo DaVici would have used an air brush; even if it were available!"Actually, what we forget is that DaVinci, Michelangelo, Rafael and the rest of the "masters", were working men. They didn't live in ivory towers, they were making a living, feeding, clothing and housing themselves and their families, much like we do. They would have and did, use the most expeditious methods at their disposal to create their art. It's well documented that Michelangelo did not paint the Sistine chapel by himself, he had a crew of apprentices that drew the outlines for the frescos and also painted the backgrounds and lesser figures.Although I enjoy hand-cutting a dovetail on occasion, I cut at least 90% of mine with a router and Incra jig. No one 50 years from now (providing the piece hasn't turned into firewood) is going to care what methodology I used to create the joinery, they will however, appreciate the time I took designing the piece, selecting and milling the wood, creating tight and strong joints and applying a beautiful finish.Personally, while I appreciate the methods of the "old masters", I'm convinced everyone of them would have looked at a PC 690 and a decent dovetail jig of any manufacture and they would have said, "I gotta get me some of that".Jim"There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other is that heat comes from the furnace." - Aldo Leopold
my personal point of view is both the same as yours and different. i look at my projects created with the leigh and like them, thinking as you do. i also look at pieces in antique stores and museums admiring and appreciating the handcut dovetails, even when they are not especially well executed. the hand cuts have a certain charm all their own.
greg
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