I make a lot of small boxes and jewelry boxes. I’m good with cutting box joints, but my dovetails ain’t so good, and I spend too much time doing them. Looking for a better way to speed through dovetails, but still have variable spacing. I can’t see a reason to pop the big money for the D4R when it seems that a Super 12″ will do everything I need. So, somebody tell me the difference between the two, other than the width of wood the jig will handle. Are there other limitations to the Super 12″ I am not aware of?
Thanks,
Jeff
Replies
To my mind, the most significant difference is that you can't do variable-width pins on the Superjig. You can variably space the pins, but you can't make each pin a different size.
After that, the limits seem somewhat insignificant. The 12" can't do isoloc joints (from memory), but the bigger superjigs can.
I appreciate that the D4R is better built, but for limited numbers of dovetail joints I'm confident the Superjig will outlast anything I'm likely to do on it. I couldn't justify the extra cost of the D4R.
Ron (whose Superjig is on order)
Jeff,
Consider a woodrat of the smaller (or larger) variety. Why might the rat be good for small boxes?
* It can cut both fingers and DTs of any width, size limited only by the size of the cutters. Woodrat do super-sharp HSS cutters from Very Big to very tiny (approaching houndstooth DT size, for example).
* It will do through and blind DTs, although the blind pin-holes need the corners taking out with a chisel (tiny amounts, chisel guided by perfectly-cut rat pin-hole walls and floor).
* You may vary both the spacing and the width of fingers or DTs. But it's also easy to cut symmetrically within your variations (eg variable space/size, but mirrored from the centre of the corners outwards to the box top/bottom). You just flip the workpiece in the rat's vise-jaws and make another cut without changing the rat's settings.
* You can gang-cut fingers and DT tails - several sides with one set of cuts.
* The rat helps you cut straight and square but essentially leaves you to manage the actual cutting patterns and precision-of-fit.
* Once one side is cut, however, it provides the template for cutting the matching side. Eg the tail-piece is put in the "guide" vise and moved against a mark (which represents the cutter size being used to cut the pins) so the pins may be cut without any mesuring or marking.
* You do not need to measure or mark anything - cut the tails/fingers by eye (with or without symmetry); or use simple pencilled divisions on the workpiece to help joint spacing (variable or regular).
* And let's not forget that the rat can cut many, many other joints - more than you've heard of perhaps (the manual is full of weird joints).
The drawbacks?
o A bit of a learning curve (but very little for fingers and DTs).
o The need to control where the cuts are made yourself - ie not total guidance, only enough to keep the cuts true. Imagine making handcut joints with your sawing arm held in a jig that won't let you cut skew but still allows you to decide where to actually cut.
o Like the dedicated jigs, you still need to strap a noisy router to it.
These days I cut most DTs by hand, just because I enjoy it and it gives a handmade look (ie imperfect). :-) But for rapid, volume production or something needing perfectly-fitted joints for high strength rather than show, I prefer the rat.
Some prefer the rat because it will make the neatest (ie well-fitting) joints you can imagine. It offers clean-looking precision with an aspect approaching handmade, in terms of variable spacing/size and fineness of the joints.
But it's perfection means that a certain quality of handmade joints is absent. (This is true for any jig too, of course).
Lataxe
Lataxe,Funny, I actually have a 'Rat. I love it for many different types of joinery, but I have not had much luck with dovetails. They always seem to come out too loose, too much of a gap between the pin and tail.There are very few times I go into the shop and I don't use my 'Rat for something. I was just thinking about trying a new option for dovetails. Let me know if you can enlighten me on how to correct my 'Rat issue.Thanks,Jeff
Jeff-The Craftsman Gallery sells an attachment for the Woodrat that provides repeatably accurate indications of the east-west position of the workpiece. They provide instructions for using this capability to make well-fitting dovetails and finger joints.http://tinyurl.com/yv5l7cThe downloads for the instructions are at the end of the product description.Don
Donald,
That is a very useful link and I'll be getting one o' them handy measuring aids. At present I use a home made screw type thing, in which I must count (part) revolutions to get dead accurate movement. I've been using it today in making some 12" sliding DTs on the ends of shelves. (I find the rat fore/aft movement for these to be absolutely critical if they are to fit well).
Of course, it is possible to make the neat DTs and fingers with nothing but the eye - if one's eyesight is reasonaly good and the rat is well-lit. I made them for years in the original manner described in the rat manual of some 8 years ago.
One must cut accuratey to a finely-marked cutter shape scribed on the rat face. (I use one of those 0.3mm leadpencils). With a little experience it soon becomes second nature to vary the positioning of the first-cut piece (acting as template) against this cutter shape. With hardwoods I cut right on the line or even a hair wide; softwoods can be cut a tad tight, as the joint will squish together well.
I wonder how much time it adds to cut DTs and fingers using the micrometer thing instead? Presumably it goes faster with experienced use, like everything else.
***
For JH: In http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=29983.78 there is a pic of some rat-cut DTs. After cutting many, many by eye over the years, I find it easy now to get them as tight/neat as the small example shown. Incidentally that whole thread is quite an amusing one, all about DT jigs.....
Lataxe
If you have not seen this, Woodcraft is carrying Whiteside metric bits that match the diameter of the Festool Domino bits. So you can buy their Dominoes, and use your 'Rat much the same way the Festool product works, if not better. I've done something similar by making my own "dominoes", but if you don't want to fuss with making them, now you can buy theirs. Just another way the 'Rat is so versatile.JH
JH,
That snippet about the Festool-sized bits is handy, albeit yet another item on the list of "Why I need a Domino, my dear". (The ladywife insists on logical and reasoned buying decisions - such a nuisance).
By the way, you mention, ".....the slop in my crank will be irrelevant".
This is a shocking admission and you must realise that slop in the crank can now be cured by one means or another, including medical treatment; but that is not the only method, oh no. (I hestitate to list all methods as folk might be taken aback). :-)
Lataxe
Wow, I've searched for 35 years, and I have finally found a human who has a mind more in the gutter than my own.Congrats Lataxe, and Happy Holidays!
JH,
I never do them sort of crank-related things in the gutter; there is a danger of guttersnipes coming across one when defenceless. No I like soft feather beds with satin sheets where [removed by the Taunton anti-shock police].
Lataxe, "....a disgusting specimen of a child" (Jock Thomson, Religious Studies Master and skurj of all nasty boys at the South Shields Grammar-Technical School for Boys circa 1961-7).
I'd like to know who the anti-shock police are, and what they had to remove from your reply.I bet it is John White. He is the one who sold me my WoodRat, which started this whole talk about having a sloppy crank.
Guys:
I work wood for a living and cut the dovetails by hand, I'd suggest you make a small set of dovetails in a couple pieces of scrap everyday till valentines day and by then you'll be so good at cutting them acurately you will want to take the $500.00 or more for the jigs and just buy wood.
Now for the crank issue, sloppy cranks are never irrelevant to us girls! They are simply avoided!
Smile and get out that dovetailsaw and for heavensake do something about that crank. ;-)
Madison!
Hi Madison,I'm sure that one night in the shop with Lataxe, and you'd cure his sloppy crank problems.If I spent the time to cut a set of dovetails every day between now and Valentine's day, my wife would create a whole new definition of the "St. Valentine's Day massacre."I have a regular day job, and two kids to tend to in the evenings. If I get two hours a night in my shop I consider it a good night. What time I have available is too valuable to spend it in a folly of ruining hardwood with a dozuki. Thus, I am looking for a quick and accurate method for producing DTs.Now, if you want to come over and fix my sloppy crank, I'll send you my address.JH
As far as Lataxe goes well I'd have to say he's on his own, remember I said we girls simply avoid those types of problems.
Now if you haven't already check out your new issue of FWW there's a very timely article about practicing dovetails in just 5 minutes a day!
Madison
Mad,
I prefer to make my handcut DTs in lovely drawers, stretcher-ends and other furniture bits, as I cannot bear to see all that marking out and Wenzloff sawcutting go into the bonty.
You may construct scrap bits with DTs 'round the edges if you like. Perhaps you interlock them to make them Valentine card thangs, of cunningly-latched chunks of wood? If so I am expecting one.
Lataxe, doing a litle jig before bedtime (the ladywife awaits, robed in satin sheet).
Lataxe honey:
If ladylove is waiting in satin sheets what the heck are you flirting with me for? Get your dovetails in a row and sign off already!
Madison
Yeah, that is pretty interesting. So is the measurement on the digital scale based off another piece on the body that it registers to (I hope this makes sense)? What I'm getting at here is I have just a little bit of slop in my 'Rat when I go from east to west, or vice versa. But if this scale is based on movement between the two parts, the slop in my crank will be irrelevant. Also, it seems this machine is made for the DeWalt router. I don't have one, but I'm starting to wonder if my world will be simpler if I buy and install one in the 'Rat. Comments on that?
Jeff-First, let me point out that I have not used the caliper attachment for the Woodrat. I just came across it on the Craftsman Gallery site, and it looked like it might help with your loose dovetail problem.As I look at the illustrations for the caliper installation, one part of it is attached to the fixed body of the Woodrat, and the other is attached to the movable carriage to which the router is fixed. Thus, the caliper should accurately measure displacement between the starting point on the workpiece and the router bit regardless of any slop in the method of movement.Although the manufacturer uses a DW625 in nearly all of his illustrations, I don't see any reason the basic operation of the Woodrat or any add-ons would be dependent on the type of router. So long as there is an appropriate plunge bar for your particular router, that is.Back to your loose-fitting dovetails. The button position determines the width of pins. Unfortunately, the button-setting scale on the machine is known to be inaccurate in most cases because of manufacturing tolerances. Try setting the button a couple of millimeters higher than your calculated value and see if that won't improve the fit. With a little trial and error, you should be able to determine a correction factor which you can then apply to future settings.Good luck.Don
mad this on the weekend just for fun using my new super 12, legs are splayed about 10 degrees
179 in canada vs 450 or so?
nuf said!!
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