Just took a new Leigh mortise and tennon jig for a test run. I purchased this unit in hope of speeding up the joinery in chairs and other custom furniture which is what I do for a living.
After I unpacked the unit the first thing I looked at was the fit and finish. It is near perfect. Everything seems to be made of thick aluminum most likely machined with a CNC milling machine. All edges are rounded off (no sharp edges) and everything slides smoothly. It also has a nice little connection for collecting dust. I hooked up a Fiend vacuum and it seemed to get about 75 to 80 percent of the dust.
The instruction manual is laid out the same as the manual for the D4 Dovetail jig and is very well written and makes setup and cutting of joinery straight forward. There is a little bit of one time setup that takes some time but is important to make sure the unit runs accurately.
It does a little more joinery than I first thought it did. I didn’t bother getting the brochure so I wasn’t sure exactly what it did. Joinery includes single, double, triple, and quadruple tennons as well as single and double slip or bridle joints. It will also do a mitered slip joint which I though was pretty cool and as a bonus it will do doweling. If your really creative you could also make your own templets which can be attached with screws. The hole are already there.
After messing around a little I found the knob to adjust the fit needed a little adjustment as well at the little device used to center the joints. These were minor adjustments that took little time. After that I found I could center the mortise on the stock anywhere from 1 to 10 thou. The play in your router is no doubt the culprit but since you reference the same face of the stock against or away from the jig all lines up nicely when done.
I ordered an extra set of guides for making 3/8″ joinery and that brought the price up to $1162 Canadian with taxes and shipping. There’s also guides for 1/4″ and 1/2″ joinery and by using different guide – cutter combinations other sizes are also available. Is it worth the price? That depend what you intend to do with it. If you make a living making furniture this little unit will definitely speed things up and pay for itself in a hurry. I don’t think it could be made any nicer if that helps ease the price shock. Overall this is a very nice unit that is as nice or nicer than their dovetail jig.
Replies
$1162 ?
Who cares if it is Canadian bucks.
I think there other ways to cut mortice & tenion Joints.
1162.................
The proof is in the puddin'
Nicobie,
I am discouraged that this was your best contribution to this thread.
Hemstalk,
Personally I've drifted back to fine hand tools for joinery, however I do not have to make a living on my convictions. Still the jig intrigued me, and I appreciate your thorough review.
Joe Coty
Thanks Joe. I love to do joinery by hand. A nicely sharpened chisel and hand saw are a joy to use but when it comes down to making 8 to 10 chairs or a complex sideboard the mortise and tennons can easily go into the hundreds. If I can knock 5 minutes off the time it take to make a mortise and tennon I've saved myself a lot of time in the end. This time can then be spent on details like hand made handles and knobs and other personal touches. I really don't prefer to cut joinery on such a machine but it all come down to how efficiently I can complete a piece and move on to the next. So much to do so little time.
GEE Joe,
I'm sure sorry I disappointed you.
Just what did you have to offer to this discussion?
Was it $1162 worth of advise....
hesheThe proof is in the puddin'
Nicobie,
I found your statement disrespectful to the effort Hempstalk provided in sharing his experiences with a new tool.
The jig is expensive and Hempstalk later explained his justification for using the tool.
Regards,
Joe Coty
Well joeboy,
You sure haven't been to nice to me either.
All I said was $1162 is to much to spend on something that can be done in an other way cheaper.
Am I not allowed a opinion here? Why Do you feel you have to speak out for others.
I'm sure he is capable of defending himself.
I know I am.The proof is in the puddin'
I like nice tools that do a good job, I can afford them and will buy them if I want to. That's why I worked hard and successfully all my life. Now could we get some solid comments about this tool, positive or negative, from those with actual experience. I can never understand why a person that simply has no interest in or knowledge of a tool has to dump in some pointless babble.
I can't understand why people like you and that Joe guy feel the need to attack somebody who is only offering an opinion. Isn't that what the guy who started this thread did, offer an opinion? Why don't you pick on him.
As for 'babble', that seems a apt description of your post. Total waste of bandwidth,"In my opinion".
PS: I'm happy for you that you're rich...... as I've mentioned in above posts, I'm plannin' on staying $1162 richer by not buying that over priced jig. You can do as you wish.The proof is in the puddin'
Nicobie,
I initiated a polite censure to your comment on the FMT jig. I found it rude to broadcast such a flippant response to a well thought out review. You certainly could have offered your opinion in a manner consistent with forum etiquette and common courtesy. I further found no cause to resort to derogatory attacks on me. You clearly have exposed your shortcomings of intelligence and grace.
Joe Coty
Please excuse a lurker for butting in, but perhaps enough has been said about issues other than the performance of the tool. No need for this forum to repeat the great "Art versus Craft" debate or to strive to sink to the depths often reached on the WoodNet forum over at August Home (Workbench magazine).
Hey dillweed,
you of all persons bring up forum manners. You started this rant.
Why don't you go back to your 'garage' and polish up that $2000 table saw you are afraid to use.
What a creep. Now you are calling me stupid?
Hahahahahaha.... You are owned.
Don't this joint have a ingore feature? If you don't want to read my chit, click on it.The proof is in the puddin'
Hey guys, no disrespect to either of you, you are both entitleled to your opinions, but is it possible that this isn't the forum for an argument like this? I thought this was a messageboard for learning and for woodworkers to connect with other woodworkers, not to mock one another. "you are owned"? Please. Grow up.
That's just my two cents
You may now begin the inevitable mockery of my post. Please, be gentle and try not to hurt my feelings.
Hey mikkimel (sp?)
Of course you are right.
However, Y should I grow up? Is this board only for old doods? Is there a law that says youngsters can't post here?
Do you have to act like you're 1 million years old in order to post here?
Get with the program el Dorko.The proof is in the puddin'
clever retort.
i stand corrected.
Recently attended a long woodworking workshop stressing the use of hand tools lead by a well known woodworker. Handtools and hand techniques were the order of the day. A long list of techniques were demonstrated and practised by all. Except for mortise and tenons - everyone used the slot mortiser and the tablesaw. The time spent in handwork was used for details and surfacing. If a piece of furniture takes 60 hours to build why add 10 hours of mortise and tenon work? I recently started a frame and panel toybox - 26 mortise and tenons which took all day. I'd rather spend time on inlays, curved laminations, banding, beading, or even carving.
Why add ten more hours?
One reason would be to have ten more hours of fun, another reason would be the cost of the machines, jigs, etc. needed to go the power route.
$75 will get you the saw, chisels, and marking implements necessary to cut tenons on any workpiece - rectilinear, curved, compound angles for chairs, etc. Add another $100 or so for a few mortise chisels. $175 compares very favorably to the expense of owning a tablesaw (that would be worth owning) and a slot mortiser.
Another reason would be the simple satisfaction of building the project completely by hand, but this doesn't appeal to everybody. That's why they make chocolate and vanilla.
A reason not to would be that healthy mix of hand tools and power tools is a very expensive proposition. What's being foisted on craftsman these days is to spend money twice - buy a bunch of power equipment so you can finish 'fast', then buy a bunch of hand planes so you can attempt to cover up the fact you built the thing with power tools.
I'm not sure that I buy into the "either or" proposition in your post - it almost seems as if you are asserting that the time spent on the joinery would somehow "take away" from the time spent on the finishing touches like marquetry and inlay (assuming you've planned that for your project). You've said that you would rather spend more time on these types of finishing touches. Don't you plan to spend whatever amount of time it takes to complete the finishing touches in a rightful manner regardless of the time spent on the other steps?
A day to cut the joinery on what sounds like a stupendous toy box? That's too much?
It would take me AT LEAST a day, and probably more, just to pick out the stock and do the rough stock layout on a project like yours.
Edited 10/24/2002 12:32:34 PM ET by CHASSTANFORD
Ten more hours of fun ? Funny how one person enjoys doing hours of mortise and tennoning and the next person would rather spend their time doing other things. After cutting thousands of these joints I've had my fair share of fun and would like to speed the process up a little. So if I can complete the grunt work and move on a little sooner I don't feel I've missed out on anything. Same reasons for the invention of the table saw, planer, jointer. All these machines help to speed the process up and give us time to concentrate on other things. All can be done by hand but why, other than the enjoyment one receives from doing things by hand. Different people different ways. I hope you don't take this the wrong way but do you make furniture for a living? If so how can one be cost effective without the use of machines. You may be a full time furniture maker and I would sincerely enjoy hearing your views of making a living using hand tools.
Yep, I do make furniture for a living (with only hand tools), although today I'm riveted to the t.v. and the 'net watching all this sniper stuff. I work in all solid woods- no plywood projects and stuff like that. When a job calls for veneer, I veneer over solid stock only.
There's another thread floating around here where I explain my position more fully, although I can't remember the name of the exact thread.
My operation absolutely does not depend on speed as my annual output usually consists of twelve to eighteen pieces a year with the average being closer to twelve. In years where I've done more than one dining table and chairs commission, that number could go lower as I count a table and chairs commission as 'one piece.'
I supposed that I was predisposed to the hand tool philosophy even when I ran power equipment as I never really looked at any significant step in the process with the goal to "save time." Save time for what I would ask? I give my all on every piece that I build. I never viewed any step in the process as something to rush through. For example, planing stock to thickness is important - you never know what you might discover about the project stock while planing to thickness. Maybe you'll notice a grain pattern you hadn't noticed before or something along those lines. I just believe that it pays in more ways than one to work at a craftsman's pace, not a manufacturer's pace.
Very interesting. I appreciate your thoughts. Are you retired or have you made your living doing furniture for a long time. I find it hard to justify billing my customer extra time on things like joinery if I don't have to. I guess I just don't take that much ejoyment cutting that many mortise and tennons.
Edited 10/24/2002 2:44:11 PM ET by HEMPSTALK
I'm in my early 40s. I've been doing this professionally long enough to be a proven commodity (many years). In several other threads over the last few years or so, I've given my marketing philosophy. Essentially the last thing that I'm trying to do is 'save' my customers money. Most of them have enough for more than one lifetime. What they pay me for a piece is a few hours or perhaps a few days worth of interest on their portfolio.
Pick up a marketing textbook and study the 'luxury goods pricing theory' (or similar verbage). It's an eye opener, but essentially states that for certain goods people actually want to pay more. Think about luxury automobiles, homes in exclusive neighborhoods, memberships in exclusive private clubs. If these were cheap, what would be the point? If Joe Blow Truckdriver can afford it then you can bet that Buffy the Heiress doesn't want it, to sum up the theory in a sentence.
People who hire an independent craftsman/artist (whatever you want to call it) to build a special piece of furniture don't expect, or even want, a bargain. If they do, send them to Heilig-Myers.
Yours is not the first post that alluded to the same idea about pricing and my question to you and others is - just who are your customers? I just don't get a lot of average income households calling me to commission furniture. I'm not a snob and if somebody wants something I'm happy to quote on it. But I'm not adjusting my quote a dime based on my perception of what their disposable income may or may not be. Well, realistically I might adjust it upward but never downward.
I build a giveaway piece for a charity every now and then, a Ronald McDonald House and stuff along those lines. Everybody else is going to pay top dollar and I have virtually zero regrets.
Edited 10/24/2002 5:06:29 PM ET by CHASSTANFORD
Thank your for your reply. I fully understand where you come from. I simply just don't find that much enjoyment in certain areas of woodworking such as repetitive details. I feel strongly that certain items are worth so much and no more. I don't subscribe to the theory of over pricing just for the sake of over pricing. Don't get me wrong I don't adjust my pricing for each customer and my prices are far from cheap. I've worked for only three customers this year and will have completed around 25 or so pieces. My customer seem to have lots of disposable income and I don't mind relieving them of some of it. I am very capable with hand tools and love to work with them but I can't seem to make the type of furniture I like to make completely by hand. It would cost ridiculous amounts of money. I find it very interesting to talk to people who have found a balance between hand work and making a good living from that type of work. What kind of furniture do you make?.
A reasonably wide variety of stuff - American and English reproductions, some of my own designs (admittedly derivative) and collaborative designs between myself, architects, and interior designers - most of these in a commercial setting like executive's offices, boardrooms, and reception areas. On the commercial stuff, I'm usually providing a 'centerpiece' type piece in a room full of bulk cabinetry built by others (but high-quality bulk cabinetry). I'm not the go-to guy for an entire boardroom full of furniture, but I might be called on to make the CEO's chair, for instance or small conference room tables that need to be a cut above what the bulk providers are building.
I have not found working with hand tools to be materially slower than what I was accomplishing with machines. I think that in making that comparison I've been very fastidious in considering all the time involved in owning power equipment - maintenance, machine tuning, procedure setups, etc. I noted in another thread that a large portion of tool tuning in the hand tool arena is a one time affair but this is not always so with power tools. In fact, it's rarely so.
I'm not going to lie to you and tell you that late in the afternoon I don't sometimes miss my thickness planer, but it's a relatively fleeting sensation. I like the physical aspect of hand tool usage. I like the lack of noise and the fact that dust falls to your feet instead of being dispersed into the air by a machine. I think that quality of life in the shop (to borrow a cliche) is important to the quality of my work.
You know, when I bid on a job I give an estimate of the production schedule along with the cost and the client either accepts the proposal or doesn't. If they accept the proposal, I build the piece, deliver it, and pick up a check. I don't really ruminate much about how much more quickly that process might have taken place if I had used a power tool or two. As I've said, I don't think there WOULD BE OR IS that much difference, but I don't care anyway.
Once one moves past the urge to make absolute comparisons then the whole issue is moot. It's hard not to when a person has used power equipment before. This is why I try to steer folks who visit this board who have not completely 'tooled up' to go the hand tool route. I just firmly believe that power tools add nothing to the quality of a piece built by a relatively serious craftsman. There are simply too many outstanding pieces built at a time before power tools to make be believe otherwise.
This sounds like a wonderful situation you have yourself in. I don't feel this is the route I will be taking any time soon but I do like to hear about people who seem to be completely satisfied in their work and way of working. Cheers.
A conversation that back at the beginning almost went in the direction of a CB radio discourse turned into such well thought out and expressed opinions - the best of a forum. Thanks, guys!!
I must say that I have great respect for a person who lives what he believes. Being happy at the thing one spends most of his time at could not be more important.
Have you (my use of the serch functin here has not been successful) or could you post some pix of your work? I for one would like to see your work.
I will. I'm buying the family a new scanner this weekend. Or better yet, I'll email you some pics...
Edited 10/25/2002 8:24:29 AM ET by CHASSTANFORD
I saw the small add for this in I believe FWW and was imediately interested. I was wondering if you have seen or used the MULTI ROUTER and could you or would you compare this unit to that.
I have seen the MULTI ROUTER demonstrated and I was very impressed. I am not positive, but I believe the price is comparable?
I sent for info on multirouter, and price was $2,400 list.
Ouch! I did not realize that it was that expensive now. Thank you for the info.
I did get information and pricing on the multi router. I got a price of $1900 plus, plus, plus. Buy the time you buy the guides, another router, cutters, and taxes the unit was around $3500. That's a little more than I wanted to spend on this type of machine so when the Leigh came along I though it was worth giving a try. I don't think you can really compare the two. The multi router is much more of a machine. The Leigh is a poor mans version of the multi router but after cutting around 50 joints with it it does what they claim it does and it does it fast. You can cut a mortise and matching tennon in in around 4 min. That's switching between mortise and tennon setup. You can cut around 10 matching tennons in a little more than two min. These are just straight forward single tennons. Once you start to cut the more complex joints they of course take longer.
Thank you for the response, I don't know where I got the notion that they were priced similarly, wishfull thinking I guess. I won't be getting a MULTI ROUTER anytime soon. Thanks again.
Thanks for the review. I was hoping to hear from an actual user. Sounds like a good jig.
That's a nice review and I'm not surprised that anything with the Leigh name on it is first class, as jigs and fixtures go. But joinery is the essence of the craft - the best part of the whole process. A busy pro might want/need to trim time from a repetitive, umpteenth version of the same project, or maybe not, but I don't think anybody would presume to tell you how to run your business. But the hobbyist who might be reading should consider the enjoyment of making the joints himself rather than setting up a machine to make them.
Leigh jigs are absolute feats of industrial engineering and fabrication, they are not feats of woodworking craftsmanship.
There is an interesting thread on another board about the ability of CNC routers to make complex designs like true Bombe' chests and stuff like that. I would urge you to consider upholding at least some elements of hand craftsmanship. The more we replicate manufacturing operations in our own workshops the less like craftsmen we become.
We have arrived at a time when a computer draftsman/programmer, who couldn't cut a straight line with a handsaw if he had to, can program a complex machine to perform essentially all the operations to build a nice piece of furniture. That technology is increasingly being made available, at a relatively affordable price, to the home craftsman/small shop pro. Reasonable people can argue whether or not this is desirable, but I don't think there is any argument that these machines, jigs, and fixtures have eliminated the vast majority of hand skill needed to build nice furniture and hence a lot of the soul of a piece.
Before I changed the nature of my operation, I found that my over-dependence on machines and commercial jigs increasingly made my output look more and more like manufactured furniture. I found that I was designing around my machines and fixtures, and steering potential clients toward designs that I knew fit in well with the tooling I had in place in my shop. I became afraid of complex designs that could not easily be accommodated by my set up. My progress as a craftsman and designer suffered for many years because of this. While everybody is certainly not prone to this phenomenon, I was and I'm glad I've moved passed it.
Enjoy the jig, but don't let it become your master.
Edited 10/23/2002 7:39:01 PM ET by CHASSTANFORD
Charles-
Very sage comments, and I'm glad to benefit from your experience. I might argue that a mortise and tenon jig is hardly the worst offender--the joint is, after all, hidden in all cases, and there are many ways to make it effectively and quickly--but that wasn't your point, was it?
I think it is a cruel hoax that many woodworkers play on themselves to believe that the perfect jig is going to speed their way to riches. The factories can run rings around the individual woodworker in efficiency of joinery. A factory can make a thousand perfectly mating dovetails in the time it takes me to set up my Leigh dovetail jig (a beautifully engineered piece of equipment, by the way, but the output looks rather klunky).
I once tried to start a discussion on what advantage a lone woodworker or small shop has over a furniture factory. That is, why should any customer buy custom furniture when he can get perfectly decent stuff in a furniture store for less cost. I include Thos. Moser in the factory category, and his stuff is not shabby in the least.
The biggest, and perhaps only, true advantage for the small shop that I see is design. Factories can buy good hardwoods much more inexpensively than I can. Their joinery is functionally superb. Stock preparation is repeatably flawless. Finishes (perhaps a contender for comparative advantage to the small shop in the staining process) are going to protect the piece until hell freezes over. They can ship a hundred chests across the continent more inexpensively than I can ship one to the next state.
So I think you are absolutely correct in advising us not to make our machines and fixtures the guiding principle in our design. There's precious little, in a hardheaded analysis, that the small shop has to offer, so let's not turn ourselves into highly inefficient factories with all the jigs and fixtures we just can't wait to lay our hands on.
Very well said Donald.
Relying on jigs and fixtures was an insidious process for me - before I knew it I was a one-trick pony and it showed. No particular machine, jig, or fixture was to blame. In my case they all were. But, that's just in my case.
Edited 10/23/2002 7:46:23 PM ET by CHASSTANFORD
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled