called up an old friend yesterday to catch up, chatted with his wife for a few minutes, “So, what’s new?” “Well, Ronnie cut off his thumb in a jointer a few weeks ago!”
here’s an incredibly talented artist and craftsman who now gets to try to recreate his masterful dexterity with just a stub of a right thumb. his attitude is great so far- and he admits he was trying to wrangle too long and heavy a board without asking his wife for help and in the blink of an eye his world changed.
m
Replies
A perfect example of a situation where taking the tool the the work and not the other way around would have been both a better way to accomplish the task at hand and safer to boot.
Hand tool skills save digits.
of course you're correct in this particular instance, but as soon as i saw your name in the response email i pretty much knew what you would say. on the other hand, my buddy had already done a pretty big pile of similar sized stock (so fatigue was probably a contributing factor) without incident. i suppose you're right- if he'd had a week to kill doing the work.
m
i suppose you're right- if he'd had a week to kill doing the work.
I doubt I could ever convince you otherwise, but it's really not that slow.
Edited 1/26/2005 10:57 am ET by cstan
cstan,The time-honored response from workers who use hand tools that the cause of an injury on a power tool is the use of a power tool and that the solution to power tool injuries is to use hand tools is, frankly, a cheap shot. Useless and smug. People who use power tools fall into 2 groups. Those who have been injured and those who have yet to be injured. Yeah. Ain't that right.The cause of injuries on power tools is operator error. The number of times the tool is at fault is so small as to be insignificant. We all conduct psychological and mechanical "post-mortems" of these incidents.Operator fatigue, inattentiveness, carelessness, haste, stupidity. The lists go on and on and on. And we all know these things.There are some workers who will never be injured, because they truly refuse to operate tools in a way that lead to injury. There are those who should never be allowed near power tools. Then there is the vast majority of us who, unfortunately, have instantaneous lapses when we shouldn't.But power tools are a very necessary part of woodworking. To blame the tool is like blaming cars for car accidents.It's good to hear that this injured artist has a good attitude and will not let his unfortunate disability deter him. The disability could have come from another source. It's his response to the rest of his life that matters.Rich
You posted this so hopefully everybody would pause and think. To that specific end, I offer...
Three facts:
Undersized machinery is dangerous. Hoisting large timbers on small tablesaws and jointers is asking for trouble.
I didn't suggest that your friend had to throw the baby out with the bath water - plenty of people use a mix of power and hand tools, especially when the operation with a power tool doesn't 'feel right.'
It's dam*ed hard to cut a digit completely off with a hand powered tool.
I don't have much to offer in terms of your friend's emotional recovery and well-being. He will learn to work around the missing finger, I'm sure.
Believe me, I'm not blaming the machine. This is 100% your friend's fault and I'm sure he knows it. Based on your description, he made a cascading series of errors and misjudgments which culminated in the loss of a finger.
It goes without saying that inattention, bravado, not wanting to take the time to ask your wife for help, working too tired, sick, drunk, high, with long loose sleeves, with long hair not tied back, with rings on your finger, with loose jewelry such as necklaces and bracelets, will hurt you. All this stuff is in the owner's manual of every woodworking machine I've ever bought.
It's debatable whether or not power tools are a necessary part of woodworking. You know my position.
I believe that a hand tool is ALWAYS a viable alternative, especially if your shop is poorly equipped in terms of power equipment. You seem to think not.
Edited 1/26/2005 11:59 am ET by cstan
cstan,Your abolishment of power tools from the woodworking process is unusual to say the least. It is definitely in the True Believer category. And borders on being bizarre in its absolute degree. Your insistence that hand methods or that an all hand-tool-work flow is really not "that slow" are absurd.The formost proponent of hand crafting in the last 25 years, James Krenov, quoted himself in one of his books. A visitor expressed dismay on seeing Krenov's workshop containing a large jointer, a table saw and a band saw. "Of course I use them," he said. "How else will I get any work done? Why should I waste my energy on the tasks that they do so well? I need my energy for other parts of the process."Rich
I couldn't care less how Krenov chose (chooses) to equip his operation.
You seem to be suggesting that Krenov would have duplicated the mistake your friend made (forcing capacity just because the machine was sitting there), but my intuition tells me he would have turned to hand tools if his power tools were not up to the task or a helper was not available. But I really don't know and really don't care.
That said, I understand Krenov has excellent hand tool skills. I have no doubt that he can four-square stock by hand.
Again, how I have chosen to equip my operation (and whether that puts me on the fringe or not) has little, if anything, to do with the issue at hand since plenty of people USE A MIX of power and hand tools. And one of the reasons they do so is precisely so they can handle those times when an operation exceeds the capacity of their machine.
You seem very adamant that there is no place in a power tool shop for some hand tools and the skill to use them. I think that puts you much further 'out there' than me.
I can run power equipment just fine. Did it for years.
You've drawn the conclusion that my statement about taking a tool to the work means that I think your friend should dump all his power equipment. That's not what I've said. The only thing I'm suggesting is that a jointer plane would not/could not have cut the man's thumb off. I agree that it would have taken longer to process the stock by hand, but not as long as you think.
Edited 1/26/2005 12:39 pm ET by cstan
"You seem very adamant that there is no place in a power tool shop for some hand tools and the skill to use them. I think that puts you much further 'out there' than me."
I said no such silly thing. Where did you read that in my post?
I said that excluding all power tools is unusual if not bizarre. Every chance you get you seem to take the opportunity to say that you do not use any power equipment for any woodworking task. You always seem to work that in as somehow a superior method of work (at least for you). You are always praising your own skill in the use of hand tools with the implication that you, and those who use hand tools have greater skills than those who use power tools.
I know of no-one who uses either, exclusively (except you, of course).
It matters nothing to me that you don't care how Krenov works. I care how other succesful craftsmen work, because it's instructive to see how they have solved similar tasks. If one wants to live in a vacuum and reinvent every process, that's possible, but just silly and non-productive. It also leads to lower-quality work.
You don't seem to be able to participate in a discussion without sounding condescending and judgemental if not hypercritical. Your response that his injury would not have occured if he had been using hand tools and that it is hard to lose a finger to a hand tool is insensitive, at best and totaly out of place.
His injury would not have occured if a hundred other factors had been different, including his use of a different power tool.
You are either very comfortable in your nasty, condescending manner, and you enjoy irritating people, or you are completely unaware of your behavior. Either way, that's not a good thing.
Rich
So, what exactly was the point behind posting this story about your friend? Of course, well all know that literally thousands of fingers are cut off every year in woodshop accidents.
This is not news. We're somewhat numb to it really, especially when the person is a total stranger. Somewhere in the city I live in a carpenter, cabinet maker, or somebody in the wood trade will be taken to a hospital emergency room missing one or more fingers. It happens every day.
I've posted an alternative to using power tools when they're not safe to use, namely when they are under capacity and that is to take a hand tool to the stock in need of work.
So, what do you have to offer other than another tired story about somebody cutting something-or-another off?
Your imagination is running away with you - you impute inferior work to those who don't use power tools:
If one wants to live in a vacuum and reinvent every process, that's possible, but just silly and non-productive. It also leads to lower-quality work.
Not sure what you mean by 'reinvent every process' That needs a little more explaining - maybe an example of something you think has been 'reinvented.'
How do you relate using hand tools to 'lower-quality' work? Would you mind explaining this rather bizarre bit of reasoning? How do you account for carvers and wood sculptors? Is it alright to carve and sculpt by hand, just not to saw, joint, thickness, and smooth by hand? What exactly DO you mean?
Edited 1/26/2005 2:16 pm ET by cstan
cstan,
You are really out of touch.
I didn't post about the injured person.
I never equated lower quality with hand tools.
Read a little more carefully.
Rich
I'm stupid, explain what you meant by the following:
If one wants to live in a vacuum and reinvent every process, that's possible, but just silly and non-productive. It also leads to lower-quality work.
It means, living in a vacuum results in lower quality work, because there's no opportunity to learn from the experiences of others.
Clear enough?
Rich
To buy your argument one must assume that using only hand tools is equivalent to "living in a vacuum." I think most of the artists you look up to would disassociate themselves from that line of reasoning. It's hard for me to ferrett out exactly what you're saying since all we've really discussed is the fact that I use only hand tools - does this mean I've put myself in a vacuum? Remember, I used power tools with gusto for years. For years. I get the feeling you think I've crawled back into the Dark Ages when in actuality it feels more like the Renaissance to me.
I like James Krenov's work for the most part. I don't particularly care if he used power tools to get there or not. If he attributes (even partially) his artistic success to the use of power equipment for mundane tasks then I'll take that at face value as something that has worked for him. I think he would have been a successful artist in any era.
I'm open to inspiration, but I have to tell you that how Krenov goes from rough-to-ready is not that big a deal to me. How he composes work using color, grain, etc. is.
I'm still not sure what you mean by 'reinvent every process'.
Edited 1/26/2005 3:00 pm ET by cstan
cstan,
Y'all have a good day, now. Hear?
Rich
Rich, and to All, for that matter:
The one thing that I've learned in my 40+ years is that an individual like C-stick, or whatever IT calls itself, only exists as a burr-tick, designed to simply get under one's skin. When it gets there, it usually has to be burned out.
IT (cstick) rarely has anything constructive to add to any conversation around this site. IT only wishes to confront and create conflict. I will no longer post or respond to posts from IT, and if everyone does the same, IT will no longer have a reason for even checking this site, for IT will once again become what IT probably was as a wee-cstick; one without many, if any, friends.
And to the original Poster, Mitch. It's a shame to hear about your friends injuries. It can be extremely difficult, both physically and mentally, when a person's life is changed by a serious injury, requiring him (or her) to rethink how they will continue their craft. When I was a strapping youth (I say that with a laugh) I was sure I was gonna be playing hockey in the NHL, until 2 serious injuries in consecutive seasons, neither of which removed a part of my body, ended it all. I hope he's o.k.. I also think that everyone (defined as All minus one) feels bad for him, and hearing about it is actually the only good that comes from this kind of injury, because it will make us all think, and be more careful, if only for the next few months. Thanks for rattling my cage.
Jeff
<<IT (cstick) rarely has anything constructive to add to any conversation around this site. IT only wishes to confront and create conflict. I will no longer post or respond to posts from IT, and if everyone does the same, IT will no longer have a reason for even checking this site, for IT will once again become what IT probably was as a wee-cstick; one without many, if any, friends.>>
Now, now, JHeath, cstan says what's on his mind. He doesn't hide his feelings and his knowledge base is precise. I enjoy his insightful comments. He also works with wood in a way that I find appealing. I think it unlikely that he visits this site for the purpose of ordinary friendship, but I could be presumptuous in my statement. He is a valuable resource and I hope he continues to post here. I, for one, have learned from him.
You can have him
A little levity here, Rich -- you're treading on dangerous territory with "excluding all power tools is unusual if not bizarre." How could you say such a thing about my hero, St. Roy of Underhill? ROFL! A character, yes; eccentric even (maybe) but bizarre?! No, not my St. Roy.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Rich, you are missing the point here. Using power tools is another step down the stairway to buying furniture at WalMart!! Hand tool use is not only more pure, it is morally preferable.But, don't stop there. Beyond hand tools, another rung up the ladder of woodworking and moral purity is the woodworker who uses only tools made from nature. This craftsman flakes obsidian and rubs with sharpened antlers to make his masterpieces.But wait! We've not yet reached the nadir of purity and transcendant morality!! That is the teeth and fingernails woodworker. Yes, this is a man that uses nothing but his teeth and fingernails to render absolute masterpieces of woodworking excellance!! (Political correctness would require that I ascribe this behavior to women as well as men, but most of the women I know are smarter than that!!)Let's not judge a woodworker by his or her table saw or handplane brand or use of ATP plus carbohydrate versus strong tough electrons coursing throught copper wire. Let's look at the imagination, the creativity, the love and caring, the utility, and the CRAFTSMANSHIP in the product, not the production method. I'm with you - I love my powertools and I love my handtools and I wish I could use both better! And I will.
I come late to this thread, and don't really have any thing to contribute ................... except to ask, is it not true that way more woodworking accidents are the result of hand tools, as opposed to power tools?I seem to remember reading a piece by a doc (in FWW) in the dim past that this was the case. The other thing I especially remembered from this piece was that accidents hardly ever happen during the first 5-10 years of one's woodworking experience. Statistically, so the doc said, the great majority of serious injuries occur among those with considerable experience. You know the syndrome -- " aaahhhh, I don't need the push stick for this one cut......"And BTW --- is "cstan" the old "cstanford" coming to us with ####different handle? Is that you, Charles???
"You seem to think not." Well, cstan, that's a bogus conclusion if I ever heard one.
As to the some of the rest of us (the "editorial you" if you will), maybe we just get tired of the snide, knee-jerk response.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Cstan,
Just jokin, but do you walk and ride a bicycle, or do you actually own a powered machine, such as a motorcycle, or a car?
Just wandering, as you seem to have a lot of time on your hands with the abolishment of power equipment. Also, a bicycle is a lot safer than a motorcycle.....
As a matter of fact, I ride a bike a lot. I also use public transportation a lot too.
Didn't I read in a recent post you went hog-wild and bought a bunch of new hand planes - several hundred dollars worth if not a few thou? Am I missing something here? I presume you don't plan to set them on the shelf.
Maybe I'm confusing you with somebody else.
Edited 1/26/2005 2:11 pm ET by cstan
"As a matter of fact, I ride a bike a lot. I also use public transportation a lot too."
Also ride bikes, I have four and the favorite has a price tag of more than 10 LN hand planes. But, I enjoy my car just as much.
Using public transportation ?????
If you don't support technology and automation, (machines) using public transportation is like getting someone else to power face joint and plane your boards for you, because you are against woodworking machines??? Does not make any sense.
Anyway, as I said, I'm just joking with you, different strokes for different folks.
The one thing I'm real serious about though, is the fact that I still have al my fingers and no scars on my hands. I am sincerely sympathetic with any fellow woodworker who has an accident and try to learn something from it. This is no joking matter!
I'm not against woodworking machines, per se. I used them for years. I've found another way to do things that suits me better.
I'm not against machinery and technology. If I was, then what would I be doing on this forum?
The original poster described a classic situation where a hand tool would have been better than the undersized and underpowered machine tool that was available to do the work.
I have not said that the now thumbless gentleman, or anybody else, should arbitrarily get rid of their woodworking machines. I have simply suggested that when the work is too big for the machine it's time to solve the problem another way.
That said, anybody who is interested in moving to an all hand tool operation can rest assured that it can be done and the work itself will not suffer. If very high production is your goal, then the move may not be in your best interest. Hand tools don't mix well with plywood and MDF and certain aspects of working with solid wood is slower, namely, milling rough stock to project dimensions. But not as slow as you would think. Trying to mill project stock by hand once or twice is not a good test because with anything you gain efficiency and speed the more you do it. Working stock by hand forced me to notice things about grain that I doubt I ever would have picked up when I was processing by machine. I think it's made me a better woodworker. Those who consume my woodworking may not have noticed much of a difference. I don't know, but I'm comfortable with the move.
Maybe I'm hard, but it's difficult for me to muster sympathy at the loss of a finger or thumb by a woodworker. The risk is there. It's a clear risk that nobody forces anybody to take. There are alternatives.
If you ever decide to get rid of those planes you recently bought let me know.
"Maybe I'm hard, but it's difficult for me to muster sympathy at the loss of a finger or thumb by a woodworker. The risk is there. It's a clear risk that nobody forces anybody to take. There are alternatives."
Cstan, Cstan, Cstan..........
It's called empathy, a humane emotion!
"If you ever decide to get rid of those planes you recently bought let me know."
No, I will hang on to them for a life time. I'm thinking about a #7, as the biggest I have is a #6. What do you think, do I need a #7?
By the way, my first and only woodworking accident was a cut in the index finger, with a just sharpened mortising chisel. The chisel slipped. Thought I would need a stitch, but was not willing to sit in the emergency room for 3 hours, so I went home and taped it up and it healed nicely, leaving no visible scar. Now why am I telling you this, as you have already told me, you don't care?
The Dead Wood concept.
Hi Guys. To me power tools are ...stupid. They don't do what we need them to do. They only do what they like. Or I may say what they are design to do.
And any tool that you must feed the materials by hand is simply dangerous.
But If we use the Dead Wood Concept in all our woodworking operations we can have 100% accident free woodworking. Ok maybe 99.9999 because someone can have an accident before the actually cutting or shaping of the wood.
And here is an example of the concept. The wood stays put (dead) and the saw moves on the track. Your hands are safe this way and the accuracy is second to none. Tapered and compound cuts on any size wood down to ZERO.
Yes, I come up with this thing and I know that I will be accuse of pimping a tool to the forum but if we can get over this... We can really talk about SAFETY.
And all the benefits of the system.
YCF Dino
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YCFriend,
I don't know what that thing is, but I think that anything that keeps the human operator or his body parts away from the machine during the cutting process is a good thing.
I think every single power tool we use is seriously under-engineered and inherently unsafe. I strongly believe that, like in metal work, the machine should completely clamp, hold, drive and control the work through the cutter, whatever that is. The operator should only have to stand by with a control panel at a distance from the action and unclamp the work at the end of the process after the machine has shut down.
How's THAT for an extreme viewpoint!?
Rich
How's THAT for an extreme viewpoint!?
Hi Rich. You call that extreme? Let me tell you what is extreme...stupidity.
85.000 accidents and 5B. (Yes Billions.) in hospital bills per year. Now,this is extreme. Year after year and generation after generation.
Extreme is to make circles around Saturn in one hand and using tools that was design by luck to cut wood on the other.
I think every single power tool we use is seriously under-engineered and inherently unsafe. I strongly believe that, like in metal work, the machine should completely clamp, hold, drive and control the work through the cutter, whatever that is. The operator should only have to stand by with a control panel at a distance from the action and unclamp the work at the end of the process after the machine has shut down.
And I was ready to go to Sahara. Thanks for the reply.
YCF Dino
YCFriend,
I don't know what that thing is, but I think that anything that keeps the human operator or his body parts away from the machine during the cutting process is a good thing.
Sorry I get upset EZ. This thing is the answer to all dangerous cuts in woodworking. You can secure any wood on the bottom of the rail and you slide your tool in the track. In the picture above after we cut 3/4 strip from a plywood we can deface the narrow strip and make our own edging.
Without holding and pushing the wood into a spinning blade.
Is that Extreme?
YCF Dino
Sounds interesting, to say the least.
My ideal woodworking machine is a "robot" that takes the piece of wood, holds it, rotates it into any and all positions that it needs to, cuts, mills, planes, joints, drills, etc to .0001" accuracy and hands it back ready for the , um "human touch" - assembly and finishing.
Rich
Now. That's extreme. We don't have the room or the money to get this tools. The closest thing to that is the EZ Smart. And you get to keep the human touch.
Take a tour into Virtual reality. (from someone else)
http://www.eurekazone.com/gallery.html
YCF Dino
Degree of extemety for emphasis.
Rich
Degree of extemety for emphasis.
You lost me here But I agree. Now.That's extreme.And dangerous.
(to agree without knowing what "the hell" you mean.)
YCF Dino
I meant I was being as extreme as possible to emphasize the point.
They call it reverse...something. The way I see it is just can't go same as usual anymore.
See you.
YCF EZ Dino
YCFriend,
With respect, that monster looks kinda scary, specially with the base appearing rather unstable and the portion of the blade exposed into the unstable base.
Make sure you hide it when the OSHA inspector comes along.
Jelly
Go see the thing on the web site, its everything Dino says it is.
http://www.eurekazone.com/gallery.html
You were only looking at the one picture that he posted, go to the site and view it. You'll be surprised how safe and useful it is.
I'm not pimping the tool, it really is a good thing.
Doug
Hi Doug.
Another reason for the right VS left bladed saws.
hey,hey!!!
YCF Dino
With respect, that monster looks kind of scary, specially with the base appearing rather unstable and the portion of the blade exposed into the unstable base.
Make sure you hide it when the OSHA inspector comes along.
Feel free to say whatever you feel. That MONSTER it may look "kinda scary" but is the "safest" way to cut any size wood anyway you wish and better than a laser.
The base may look unstable to you but is the largest and most stable base ever for a circular saw and comes with 2 deep tracks.
One for your straight cuts and one for your bevel cuts. The guard is working all the time and your hand's are on the other side of the blade.
The wood is secured by the smart clamping system that allows you to clamp the narrowest piece of wood and clamp it perfect square to the guide rail.
Even your cut-off is under pressure and stays put.
Take another look at this MONSTER. It may become your best Friend.
I will try to post anothe picture for a closer view.
YCF Dino
Had a look at the web link posted earlier and now understand what it is.
Interesting concept, but looks more suited to a job site, than in a well equipped shop. May be wrong, as the illustrations are not that clear.
Don't us my PC circular saw very often, once in a while when I cut a 8 x 4 sheet of ply or MDF, for the first cut only.
Interesting concept, but looks more suited to a job site, than in a well equipped shop. May be wrong, as the illustrations are not that clear.
A well equipped shop needs well trained people to use this tools. And even if you have the latest and all tools at your "well equipped shop" You still need the freedom to safely and EZ cut a long tapered on narrow stock or to cut a heavy and crooked board without facing a rotating blade.
If you spend some time looking at the versatility of the system you will see that you can combine few steps... like....straight line rip and jointer. And rough cut with a circular saw panels and the tablesaw.
Don't us my PC circular saw very often, once in a while when I cut a 8 x 4 sheet of ply or MDF, for the first cut only.
Ok. You will be surprise if you put your PC with the EZ. Your next step after that is to find a smaller shop and save some money from the rent and utility bills.
The question here is: Can you get rid off YOUR FAVORITE TOOLS?
YCF Dino
Edited 1/27/2005 12:10 am ET by YCFriend
WOW! You invented the sliding compound saw! While we're at it, you better hop over to "Breaktime" and see if the construction guys that work with "deadwood" say. I'll bet that more than one person has had a circular saw kick, drill bind up or similar situation. Your statement that you find powertools to be "stupid" is an interesting one. I really don't understand why anyone would care if I use an ancient or modern technique in my craft. Before the advent of powertools, the woodworkers of the day used what was then "cutting edge" technology, handsaws, planes etc. Why we should take a step back is questionable at best. I have plenty of handplanes, myself, they look nice on my wall. For actual work, my planes all have cords. I wonder further about the hand vs power crowd. I, for one don't wonder why, you are advocating an obsolete technique on a twenty first century forum, presumably with a modern computer. I suppose that the electricity you use is generated by waterwheel or similar. Does your buggy have a cd player? :-)John
I agree with you my friend.You just don't know what I'm talking about.
Why we should take a step back is questionable at best. ?????????????????
What I'm saying is use your power tools SMART. and find another way to have fun and rush from PUSHING a piece of stick into a blade or knifes.
Similar to a machine shop operation. Clamp your work piece before you even start your tool.
And because is time for the donuts...Talk to you later
YCF Dino
Man, you guys are getting way too bent out of shape over this hand tool thing. Take a look at the posts in the Cafe, where we regularly skewer one another about politics. This is child's play!
At least this arguement has some merit. I'll tell you one thing, no more postings for me in the cafe with political content. A lot of foaming in the mouth for my taste!
I don't see Cstan as being abrasive or crude, perhaps I'm not sensitive to it, but he does make a good point. It's the operator at fault. My injuries (though small) have been caused mostly from chisels and always have been my fault. If an operation seems unsafe, I'll stop and figure out a safer way to go about it.
As far as serious injuries to me, I had the tricept on my right arm completely severed at the elbow. This was caused by a drunk that pushed me against a car rear view mirror. It layed me off woodworking for almost two years. Still favoring my left arm to push wood through my machines.
Yes,There is no question it's the operator's "fault." I said that with my first reply. The tool only does what it's told to do. In this sense, however, the word "fault" is not meant to be judgemental, punitive or condescending. In a root cause analysis, the purpose is to find out what went wrong so that the problem can be prevented, not to point a finger of shame or derision.cstan's responses are always infused with judgement and condescention, if not gloating. "If the jerk had followed the True Way, My Way, he would still have his thumb." That stinks.Rich
Powertools were invented so more work could be done in a given amount of time. Inventions evolve and the variations of each type of tool is the evidence. Is there a handtool that is universally accepted as perfect? No, there isn't. Is it possible to be injured by a handplane? Yes it is. It doesn't matter if the tool is taken to the material or the material goes to the tool. It's still possible for any tool to injure someone. Accidents happen. I would think that a lot of the powertool injuries happen when the injured person is either untrained, unskilled, the victim of mechanical failure or an innocent bystander who isn't even involved in the process by which they came to be injured. Some are carelessness, stupidity(as in the photo of the guy welding under his car with it propped up by a couple of pieces of lumber), operator fatigue or error. There are more ways to be injured than there is time to consider all of them. If someone wants to use hand or power tools, they have that right. Every attempt should be made to make tools as safe as possible. If someone assumes the risk, let them use what they want. All of this bickering is a distraction and unless someone actually redisigns or invents something safer, the only good that comes from it is that someone may think more about safety. Thinking about being safe doesn't make one so.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 1/27/2005 9:22 am ET by highfigh
All of this bickering is a distraction and unless someone actually redisigns or invents something safer, the only good that comes from it is that someone may think more about safety. Thinking about being safe doesn't make one so.
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Something like that? What you have here is the "Dead Wood Concept" Woodworking a la CNC. But can we see it? Can we reprogram our selfs to work smarter-EZier and Safer? The EZ Smart way is here. And the people who design this THING care about woodworking and safety because they're woodworkers.
YCF Dino
Dino,
I'm glad you posted here. I think your design is, um, intriguing.
I have a large kitchen cabinet project coming up and I can easily justify your equipment for the panel cutting tasks alone and I think I'll get one of your kits. I'm looking forward to all the other benefits you describe. I'm skeptical about cross cutting with it, but I'm open to anything that works.
-HOWEVER-
This is a commercial site. I'm not sure that your postings all are within the terms of use here. I have nothing to do with Taunton. I'm not the site police or anything and there is no moderator of this forum. Just an observation. I could be completely wrong.
Rich
Hi Rich.
I'm skeptical about cross cutting with it, but I'm open to anything that works.
The smart base comes 2 very effective antichip inserts. You can use a $15.00 blade and have chip free cuts on melamine. the Ez excels in cross cutting. If you don't get the best cut ever on any cut or material..we even pay the shipping back.
This is a commercial site. I'm not sure that your postings all are within the terms of use here. I have nothing to do with Taunton. I'm not the site police or anything and there is no moderator of this forum. Just an observation. I could be completely wrong.
I know that. And they know that to. What I don't know yet is when a carpenter who loves his trade and dedicate his whole life to help his fellow woodworkers becomes a ... tool pimp. I'm not trying to sell just another tool here. I try to give something back to the trade that I love and give me so much.
I could be completely wrong to. But not the EZ Smart.and the Dead Wood concept.
Thanks Rich.
Rich, I'll chip in my .02 here. If you, as a professional, have such high regard for the system and want to share that info with us, that's great. It's a system I'd never heard of or seen before, and it's intriguing for sure.Where I thought you might have gone overboard was when you posted that big series of their web-site pictures in "in-line" fashion within your post way up above. Totally subjective on my part, just MHO. A simple link would have been more appropriate, or maybe one picture, but that was a bunch.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
It's a system I'd never heard of or seen before, and it's intriguing for sure.
Thanks. Now come to my place and see how upset I get when another woodworker lose his finger from a tool that was design like a barracuda.
I have no regrets about my postings and I have no problem to delete them all too. I'm here now and my nick name is EZ Dino or YCFDino.
You want to talk about safety? Or you want me to delete my post's?
EZ Dino
YC, I don't care one way or another what you do with those posts. I was putting in my .02-worth in the conversation that was going on with Rich, in which you wrote:"What I don't know yet is when a carpenter who loves his trade and dedicate his whole life to help his fellow woodworkers becomes a ... tool pimp."
I was simply pointing out where other people might begin to wonder. It matters not whether you agree or disagree, and what Rich said applies to me also: "I'm not the site police or anything" (Although he's not exactly correct to say there's no moderator.)
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
was simply pointing out where other people might begin to wonder.
Forestgirl. Some may begin to WONDER and some may begin to THINK.
And about the Forum people, ...if is about safety and ease, they have no problem with that. Actually they love to see a safer and ezier way and more people to get into woodworking.
Do you remember the title of this thread? View ImageLet's be careful-AGAIN! 85.000 times year after year.
Now, I'm wondering if the forum itself is one of the problems.... If this continue forever.
Instead talking and wandering about me pimping a tool to the forum why not talk and think about the tool and not me?
And from my point of view , if you knew of an Ezsier and Safer way (a solution) to a problem and you kept it secret to your self ......that may broken not only the rules of the forum but a lot more rules.
Thinking and wondering is good. just take a closer look to the EZ Smart and the Dead Wood Concept. Forget about me. Let say I'm not YCFDino and I'm just a salesmen of ...safety?. Whatever.:)
EZ Dino
Hmmmmm.......hey folks......how do you spell d-e-f-e-n-s-i-v-e ??? Sheesh.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
The spelling for defensive is, "Pleeeeeaaaaaase buy my EZ"
The spelling for defensive is, "Pleeeeeaaaaaase... open your eyes.
Then, I don't have to "pimp" my EZ.
YCF dino
Edited 1/28/2005 7:50 pm ET by YCFriend
Dino,
I have a nice bandsaw, nice 3hp table saw and a nice compound miter saw. I also have a PC circular, which I only use to size something so the table saw can handle it.
Now tell me why would I want to use your EZ gizmo?
Perhaps we should start a new thread on this?
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0006M2QT0/qid=1106964714/sr=1-8/ref=sr_1_8/103-4103541-2148660?v=glance&s=hi
Read the feedbacks on amazon that I have no control of it.
Then we can talk about the Ez better. A new thread about the Dead Wood Concept and the Ez Smart?
I will answer to any question, bad or good.
YCF Dino
jelly
21429.70
(Re)read that post, I'd have to second everything said on it.
I come over here from BT and there are several people, some I know personally, that have Dino's system.
I haven't heard anybody complain that it does not do what it claims.
I'm not trying to sell you on it, I don't have it myself, I'm not sure I'm willing to give up all my tools either.
I know that Dino does push the limits on the advertisement issue, that's just him. I don't have a problem with it, some do.
You might go over to BT and do a search on the EZ smart guide and see what they have to say. I think there is currently a thread regarding the smart guide.
You know those Neanderthals over there may actually teach you something! :)
I do believe that Dino is trying to educate as much as he can, sometimes he has to cross the line to do so, not really a big deal to me.
Doug
Hi forestgirl.
Sorry for been so... D-e-f-e-n-s-ii-v-e.
My son Chris goes to votech to become a woodworker.
And he's already hypnotize by the barracudas and brainwash by his own teacher not to look for another and better way.
I become a certified safety instructor in order to get thru to ....the teachers.
Yes. I'm determine to put a brake or even reverse the tablesaw mentality.
EZ Dino
Re: Dino and his EZ Smart GuideI have been spending a lot of time over at Breaktime lately, and Dino and his saw guide is well known among that crowd.He is pretty shameless about promoting his product, but gets away with it there for two reasons: First, he is a very experienced carpenter who contributes a lot of knowledge and experience to matters that have nothing to do with saw guides; and second, a lot of people over there have bought the EZ Smart, and they all seem to rave about it. So, it does seem to be a product that is worth knowing about (along with the Festool system) if one is in the market for a saw guide. And then, at least Dino is very upfront, if perhaps a touch too messianic, about his product; I still suspect there are people around here who promote their products (or slam someone else's stuff) without declaring their vested interests.
YCF Dino,
You are really trying hard to promote your gizmo here and perhaps it is as good as you say it is, but your illustrations don't do a very good job of explaining exactly how it works.
Then there are all those boards with the strange angles on the stand?
Do you think it will sell with all this confusion?
Hi Jellyrug.
Then there are all those boards with the strange angles on the stand?
The 4 corner boards are design to rotate in order to give you the best material support possible. You can use the EZ Smart kit as a panel cutting table because is extendable and as a solid lumber cutting table because you can reposition the sacrificial extendable members with just a touch.
The right material support is the first step to safety. And the Smart table gives you that too.
Yes.You right. We need better pictures and better marketing people. We're just a bunch of woodworkers and construction guys.
Thanks for the advice.
YCF Dino
Edited 1/27/2005 7:59 pm ET by YCFriend
JR, I think the first plane you should have bought was a #7.
Not to be morbid, and certainly not to interupt the power-tool/hand-tool debate, but what exactly did your friend do? Did the end of the board get out of hand and fall back to the table and his thumb got caught in the blades?
I'm just wanting the details to keep my own thumbs in tact. I try to respect and fear (just a little) my power tools.
Ironically, all my shop injuries have been from being stupid with hand tools. Go figure.
Not to be morbid, and certainly not to interupt the power-tool/hand-tool debate, but what exactly did your friend do? Did the end of the board get out of hand and fall back to the table and his thumb got caught in the blades?
I'm just wanting the details to keep my own thumbs in tact. I try to respect and fear (just a little) my power tools.
IMHO, this is the best post on this thread. I can understand if individuals in this situation are reluctant to describe the details of the incident, but an NTSB-style post-accident investigation would be most helpful.
The jointer never struck me as the most dangerous tool in the shop. Am I missing something? Is there something I could be doing to enhance safety that I'm not doing? Is a jointer so inherently dangerous that I should get rid of mine?
Personally, I view the attitude "there are no dangerous tools, it's all operator error", as just the polar opposite of cstan's "injuries with power tools are inevitable, hand tools are the only way to go". Both are extremist views, and the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
I'm not willing to let tool manufacturers (or woodworkers who remove or disable safety equipment) off the hook with the reasoning that mishaps are always the fault of bad karma, or operator error. Woodworkers are human, and occasionally make small missteps. These missteps should not result in injuries far greater in magnitude than the mishap that led to them: if they do, then the tool is inherently dangerous, and cstan has a point. Any equipment that required 100% perfection on the part of the operator in order to avoid injury was not designed to be operated by creatures of this world.
I have a tenant that works in a cabinet shop. I heard he recently sliced his thumb longitudentally on a table saw; the doctors said another 1/8" and he would have lost it. I'll wait a while to talk to him about it, but I'll bet the guards on the saw were removed. If so, the cause of the "accident" was the OSHA violation of not having the required safety equipment installed, and not any "operator error".
I'm not willing to let tool manufacturers (or woodworkers who remove or disable safety equipment) off the hook with the reasoning that mishaps are always the fault of bad karma, or operator error. Woodworkers are human, and occasionally make small missteps. These missteps should not result in injuries far greater in magnitude than the mishap that led to them: if they do, then the tool is inherently dangerous, and cstan has a point. Any equipment that required 100% perfection on the part of the operator in order to avoid injury was not designed to be operated by creatures of this world.
Now, this is a statement of a smart man. But with the attidude of the majority of woodworkers why chance? 5B.is a lot of doe for hospitals-doctors and laywers.
YCF Dino
Then we need to stop driving our cars, right? Flying, trains, buses, might as well stay home. 100% perfection being an absolute.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Then we need to stop driving our cars, right? Flying, trains, buses, might as well stay home. 100% perfection being an absolute.
No my friend. We just need to get over our tablesaw mentality.
Pushing a wood into a spinning blade or knife is just plain wrong. And 85.000 accidents year after year is more than wrong.
I'm not saying to stay home. What I'm saying is drive Smart and fly even Smarter. And 100% perfection on cutting a piece of wood is here already but our Tablesaw mentality is keeping us blind.
Take any other industry and you can see how many improvements and innovations they achieve the last 100 years while in woodworking we try to make few elephants to fly.
WHY?
YCF Dino
None of your respondents mentioned a possible factor in such injuries that I, as former owner of a walk-in urgent care facility, have seen in many injuries: alcohol or other mind impairing drugs. It isn't just auto accidents. It's falling from ladders, cut fingers while carving the turkey, tripping, slipping, and tool accidents. It isn't just power tools. A sharp chisel can do serious damage. Tool use of any kind requires a clear head!
Tom
Mitch
Sorry to hear of your friends misfortune.
Thanks for the reminder to be a little more careful at work tomorrow.
I could drone on about how your friend deserved what he got, should of picked up a hand plane and all that other good stuff, but I'd rather not be so damned callous, pious.
Doug
Mitch, I'm sorry this thread has turned into such a contentious exchange. I do hope your friend is able to adapt well to his restriction and continues to be creative and productive.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
here's an incredibly talented artist and craftsman who now gets to try to recreate his masterful dexterity with just a stub of a right thumb. his attitude is great so far- and he admits he was trying to wrangle too long and heavy a board without asking his wife for help and in the blink of an eye his world changed.
Hi Mitch. Tell your friend to give me a call. [email protected]
Every time that we try to move a heavy board / thin board/ croocked and warp board or an oversize panel into a spinning blade ...this is what may happen.
On the other hand if we can stabilize the wood and move the machine into a track,.... safety,accuracy and even speed can be increased.
See you guys.
YCF Dino
cstan has been on this forum forever, and knows one hell of alot about this trade. Maybe because hes right most of the time tourques people off. I, for one, had no problem with his initial reply. This forum is here for people to learn (sure wish it was around when I started in the trade) and ALL opinions should be considered and welcomed. RJ should be posting soon?? Peace and love...Jimmy...
Ah, Exhibitor. Why bring me into it? I've been watching. A fascinating thread that's taken unusual turns, but I feel no need to get into it, it's already interesting enough.
Still, it would perhaps have been instructive for inexperienced users of surface planers, aka jointers, to pick up lessons from the original accident report, but I suspect almost none have due to the direction this thread took.
Dino's been around here, but mostly Breaktime, with his guide system for two, three, or maybe four years I can think of. Slainte, RJ.RJFurniture
I'm also a more frequent member at Breaktime, and count myself among Dino's fans. As is probably evident, he is not a native English speaker, and certainly he is fervent about his product. But don't let that discourage you for a second about it's merits. I have two of his SmartGuides, as well as the router guide, and I can tell you without question that his guide system has been the most revolutionary product I've owned in about 20 years of carpentry. It makes my working easier, faster, much more convenient and most importantly much much safer. Add to this the fact that he backs it up with an iron clad no questions asked warrantee (he has I believe a 100% rating on Ebay for instance) and to top things off it's significantly less expensive than any product I'm aware of that's remotely comparable. Some here may question the messenger, but the message (and the product) is a valuable one...
PaulB
I'll contribute this link, which I also posted in another thread started by ForestGirl.
Reading these accident reports might keep those of you who use power equipment from getting hurt.
http://209.220.233.117/Accidents/search.htm
CstanThanks for the link. It's a very sobering read; I think it's best taken in small doses so as not to become numb to it's effect.It kind of reminds me of an avaiation publication that I use to read called, "The NTSB Reporter". The editors were very careful to be very detailed and include a detailed analysis. They were also careful not to included too many accounts in one issue.Tom
The value of the link, as I'm sure you've noted, is that it points out specific mistakes that people made that resulted in injury.
well, well, well...
my gentle reminder to pay more attention- both at the moment of truth and planning how do accomplish an operation- has certainly generated some interesting commentary.
first of all- to those who've requested/wondered about the details of this particular tragedy, i don't really know much. our conversation focused mainly on the medical and physical aftermath and how he's dealing with his newly renovated digit ("Extreme Makeover- the Thumb Edition!"). about the only info i have about the accident is that he was surfacing a piece of stock that, in his words, hasn't been too big for the jointer in the past but now that he's getting older (65) it's too big/long for him to safely handle without help or roller stands, and he admits he just wanted to finish the job without bothering his wife, (obviously she ended up getting bothered even more) and he should have been taking lighter passes, etc. i don't even know if he was edge or face jointing, only that in the blink of an eye the stock caught and kicked back, whipping his right thumb across the cutter. also don't know about any guards or lack thereof. he also mentioned something about due to the size/length of the board, his stance wasn't optimal, but i didn't really follow his explanation (maybe needing to support both ends instead of concentrating on the feed?), and the conversation moved on.
secondly, to the quasi-neo-luddites among us: powertools are a fact of life for most of us- please spare us the proselytizing. i only started this thread as a reminder that eternal vigilance is the price of using inherently dangerous equipment, not to knock the scab off the festering wound of the old handtools vs. powertools debate. we're all well aware of the pros and cons and we'll NEVER reconcile the issue of what constitutes "it doesn't take all that much more time to do it by hand" - everybody has a different opinion of how much time they want to spend. furthermore, if simply avoiding risk of injury is your main objective in a hobby or vocation, take up knitting or something that involves less use of sharp instruments.
personally, i think the accident in question is just another example of somebody getting careless and paying a terrible price for it. maybe my friend should have split the difference and used a hand/portable power planer- faster than a hand plane, safer than running heavy stock over a stationary jointer.
we now return to our regularly scheduled donnybrook...
m
Maybe when your friend has recovered he could visit the link I provided above and post his story so that others can learn from his mistake.
What kind of projects does your friend build? You described him as a talented artist. Has he chosen to display his work on the internet?
he's actually one the world's finest engravers, but makes all sorts of things- jewelry, knives, does some woodworking, has also written a couple books on design for engravers but are also good for carvers and ironworkers. (not to mention, he and his wife are really wonderful people) so far, his attitude is great. he's already fashioned a prosthetic thumb from thermo-plastic in order to support a tool seated in his palm (he does have a bit of a stub left) and was exploring his predicament the next day after the accident. his somewhat sick sense of humor made him collect what he could find of his missing digit from the chip pile (you don't exactly reattach one lost to a jointer) and put the bits in a jar to show people who inquire what happened.
not sure where or if you could find any of his stuff online- he's pretty computer-phobic (see, he does know to stay away from some dangerous machinery) so i'm sure he doesn't have a website. his work is also fairly arcane, and caters to a very narrow, well-heeled clientele so i doubt if he ever publicly displays anything. for the moment, i'll respect his privacy and leave his name out of this discussion.
thanks for the link- i know he's out of town for a couple weeks so it'll be awhile before i talk to him again.
m
Whoa, an engraver? This really was a terrible accident. Seriously not being snide, but he certainly is no stranger to fine hand work, I'm sure.
Really even more sad and tragic. Not everybody has the dexterity and artistic ability it takes to become a noted engraver.
I appreciate and respect the man's privacy, you can be assured of that.
Mitch.. as a novice woodworker I'm trying to figure out how this accident happened.
Could you please provide some details in the interest of keeping me from making the same mistake?
I have a 6" Delta jointer and can't see how this could happen to me and whatever I can learn about this accident would be very helpful.
TIA
Bill
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