Hello Fellow Wood Workers,
I have been considering buying a couple of bench chisels from Lie Nielsen. However, I cannot decide which steel to go with. I would be using my chisels for almost everything since I am kinda new to woodworking and I don’t have a alot of chisels. Which blade do you think would hold up better? Also, I noticed that the handles can be replaced. However, I don’t want my handle to just pop off so can anyone tell be if there is a problem here? Lastly, do you have a size recommends that gets used more than others.
Grace,
Kendall
Replies
A2 steel for pounding, O1 for paring
Kendall:
My experience with the LN chisels is different than Rob's. I have a set of the A2 steel and really like them. They take and hold a sharp edge for me and are very balanced in the hand. I keep them honed on a Norton 8,000 grit waterstone. Regardless of brand, the handles will come loose from socket chisels. A sharp rap of the end of the handle with a mallet or top of the bench is all I have ever needed to reset them. For paring, I prefer a longer chisel blade and O1 steel because it allows for a lower bevel angle (sort of like a low angle plane). The last two times I saw Thomas Lie-Nielsen I begged him to come out with a set of O1 paring chisels patterned after the longer Stanley #720 (the current chisels are patterned after the #750). For now I have a set of Narex bevelled edge chisels that work great for paring.
Bottom line, the A2 steel gets just as sharp as any other chisel I've owned, but holds the edge longer at the factory bevel of 30 degrees. If doing mostly mallet work, definitely go with the A2. If all you plan to use the chisels for is paring I would consider the O1 steel because it lends itself to a lower bevel angle (20 to 25 degrees) which is nice in a paring chisel.
gdblake
Socket Chisels
Kendall,
I recently had the opportunity to try the LN chisels and was really impressed with their balance. A2 is a harder steel, so would stand up better, except if sharpened at really low angles where the fineness of grain of O1 has the advantage. A2, being harder, also takes longer to sharpen.
Regarding the handles and blades separating, either a knock of the butt-end of the handle before you start works. A more permanent solution is to use shellac to hold the two parts together. By using shellac, the handle can still be easily removed if necessary. I learned that trick from Jeremy Tomlinson of LN.
Chris,
Can you document that it's harder?
Yes, O-1 is finer grained but can you explain why? Several years ago FWW did a review of chisels where they actually did fracture tests on the chisels after judging the chisels' performance. FWW found that edge viability was directly related to grain size. Has something changed?
What property makes A-2 less suitable for more acute bevel angles and why?
Larry,
I do not know my metalurgy very well and cannot explain what I have read and believed to be true before passing it on. I do know from experience grinding Veritas O1 and A2 plane irons that the A2 takes a lot longer to grind.
According to Ron Hock, "With an alloy as simple as O1, containing so few alloying elements, the hardened grain structure is as fine as possible". He goes on to talk about A2 steels and how "during heat treatment, the chromium carbides can grow quite large – large enough to affect your ability to hone the edge as close to zero-radius as you may want. And these carbides are held in place with less strength than the rest of the steel matrix which can allow them to pop out under the stress of honing or cutting leaving a small gap in the edge." Quotes from http://www.hocktools.com/A2.htm
Do you agree with this?
Chris, Ron Hock knows his
Chris,
Ron Hock knows his stuff. I wish he'd go into greater detail.
The way to keep fine grain during heat treating is to get a uniform critical temperature and to hold it there for as brief a time as possible. The longer it's at critical temperature or above, the more coarse the grain. A-2 requires long heat soaks and a high temperature to form the carbide inclusions. So you end up with carbide inclusions that aren't even structurally part of the steel and a coarse grained steel surrounding them. When these carbides are at the cutting edge they're prone to just falling free which is why some tool makers suggest more obtuse bevel angles for A-2.
I believe one of the big reasons so many look for A-2 steel is that a lot of people are just repeating what they read or hear. Yes, A-2 is more difficult and slow to sharpen but that doesn't necessarily translate to a longer lasting edge. I can certainly understand why many think A-2 must have a longer lasting edge after the struggle to hone it but being difficult to hone doesn't mean the edge will last longer.
Your contributions are muchly valued
Larry,
I really appreciate what you bring to the table. And by that, I mean not just your wealth of knowledge and experience, but also your attitudes. Probably everyone else, myself included, would have either simply agreed or disagreed with my first post in this thread. You, however, asked me to back up my statement. So to do so, I did some research, and know have a better understanding of the subject. You are right - many people just hear or read something that sounds good to them and repeat it. We have to be careful of that, because popular belief is not necessarily true, nor should it be.
Never assume. Question everything.
By the way, I got your DVD today on Making Side Escapement Planes and hope to watch it soon!
Thanks Fellow Woodworkers,
The above information was indeed helpful. I have decided to go with the A2 steel. I purchased a 1/2 and 3/4 chisel from Lie Nielsen.
Grace,
Kendall
O-1 is the way to go
Kendall
I am a fan of A-2 steel, but the Lie-Nielsen chisel I have in A-2 has not performed like I had hoped, so I would go with the 0-1.
To be totally honest, I wouldn't buy them in either steel. The Japanese Chisels sold at Woodcraft have worked perfectly for me and cost about half as much. They take and hold an excellent edge and I have not had any issues with the handles coming loose.
I have the 1/4,1/2.3/4 and 1 inch sizes. I also have two Japanese dovetail chisels ( 1/8" and 3/16")
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
http://www.rlmillard.typepad.com
Lots of money
A while back Fine Woodworking did a comparison of chisels. Although they liked the Lie Nielsen chisels best a close second were chisels made in the Czech republic called Narex. Rather than trying getting one chisel for $65 or $55 I recently bought three Narax chisels at roughly $12 each which includes the shipping. Other than they are larger, they seem a very good value for the money and once honed and put to wood seem to be as reported...very good.
So if you have just a limited budget and can get by with a close second best, get a handful of Czech chisels at a fraction of the cost of just one Lie Nielsen chisel. No, they aren't as pretty and polished as the LNs but it's the wood in the end that people look at, not the tool you used to shape it.
Peter
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