Hello and thanks to all who check this knot out. I have become a Lie Nielsen fanatic over the last couple of years. I have been buying several of their planes. I like to collect them and I like to use them as well. I have liked the LN planes for years but only in the last couple of years have I really been able to buy them and started studying them.
I came across a LN Bronze No. 2 last weekend and It seemed very strange to me but I bought it anyway. I was looking at a picture of it before I actually bought it and I thought the seller was actually confused. The plane has the body that resembles a Stanley Bailey plane. I told the previous owner that I believed him to be mistaken(I thought he had a No. 1 instead).Then I saw the lateral adjustment knob which is absent on a No. 1. He said the plane was a number two and that No. 2 was cast in the plane body. He sent a picture of the plane where it said No 2. I bought it and then I wrote to Lie Nielsen and asked them when they produced a No 2 that had a Bailey style body instead of the Bedrock body that they usually have. They seemed a little mystified and wanted to know if the plane body even said Lie Nielsen on it. The frog functions like a normal Lie Nielsen but it is thicker at the top and the entire bronze body feels smoother than a normal new Lie Nielsen. I am supposed to send them new pictures this week but I thought I would appeal to the masses and see what we could come up with. I am sure that some of you must have one that looks like this and that it isn’t really rare but I was just a little taken back when my emails were answered by Lie Nielsen with amazement.
Help me out guys. I have never seen one like this but the company is 30 years old so there is much that I dont know about them. Thanks for your time
Mike
Replies
Could it be a number one with a high angle frog? Or it could be a number where the previous owner changed the frog for some reason.
My LN #2 was in the very first shipment of #2 planes shipped from the Toolworks. It has a Bedrock style body. Their #1 planes have never had a lateral adjuster. I think it would be easier to add a lateral adjuster to a #1 than cast and machine a #2 body in the Bailey style but I've never looked at a #1 with that in mind.
The box the early planes came in had a different logo.
Thats very interesting that you were one of the first to get a LN No. 2. That helps eliminate the idea that maybe some of the first were of Stanley Bailey design. You are correct that the early planes were shipped in a white box. This only adds a little more to the mystery. I have included more pictures of the No. 2 along side of my No. 1. You can clearly see the size difference. Besides a No. 2 frog would never even fit in a No 1. The frog on the No. 1 like a Stanley Bailey design can only be adjusted after you take out the plane iron and chip breaker. The frog on the No 2 I have can be adjusted like a normal Bedrock design. In the one picture I am posting you can see the No 2 in the casting. the casting is also marked Lie Nielsen. We need more ideas. Also the plane is a standard 45'. Thanks guys.
I looked at my #2 in the shop this morning. I think someone just rounded the tops of the sides to make your #2 look like a Bailey.
Posssible!
I had thought that could be the case. There are obviously many craftsmen who would be able to do that. I made a template of one side of the plane and then transferred it over to the other side to see how well each side compares to each other and they are remarkably close. I dont have a bedrock number two to compare it to verify that the entire plane body that I have would fit in the outline of the bedrock style. We will see if I dont figure it out, I might send it to Lie Nielsen to try and figure out what they think
Lie Nielsen #2 ?
I just got done exchanging emails with the previous owner of the plane in question. He vigorously claims that he is the original owner and that he is the one who took the plane out of the box and that it has never been altered in any way. Who knows. I dont have any reason to doubt the man. I hope to find out more from Lie Nielsen this week.
Who did the original owner purchase the plane from?
I don't see in your posts who the original owner purchased the plane from? Something about this seems very wrong. There are a few possiblities. 1. You got an early prototype plane that was indeed made by Lie-Nielsen. 2. The original owner is a liar. 3. Whoever sold the plane to the original owner modified it. 4. You have a clone made by someone other than Lie-Nielsen. 5. You are hoaxing us. 6. The plane came from a parallel universe. Fun stuff. Looking forward to hearing what Lie-Nielsen makes of this.
gdblake
Waitig for Result
I am eager to find out the result of what this plane actually is.
Number 2
You could contact Lie-Nielsen Works directly, and spare yourself much guesswork. They have great reputation for their customer service.
Best wishes,
Metod
Other differences
It looks to me as if this plane has been reworked with altered sides and possibly a new rear handle done with a more sweeping horn like the very early Stanley planes had. Look at the photo of a stock L-N #2 bronze below : then look at the handle or tote on the subject plane. Whoever did this work did a very nice job.
There was a fellow around the big auction site who claimed to be a pattern maker for L-N who sold customizeded planes made from stock castings and parts, but modified in some way. Perhaps this is his work.
Handles
I went back and compared the handle to the other Lie Nielsen planes that I own(some old and some new). If there is a difference in the shape of the handles I can not see it. Thats not to say that there isn't some difference. I just cant see it.
Thats very interesting that you bring up that gentleman that reworks Lie Nielsen planes. I know that I have seen a few that are pristine where the wood has been changed slightly. I have another friend who has mentioned who I assume is the same gentleman that are referencing. If he would come across this post it would be nice to know if he has reworked it.
I gave the plane a small workout last night and it preforms beautifully. Your right in the fact that if it has been reworked the person who did it performed the work admirably. I am going to send the plane off to Lie Nielsen this week so they can look at it. I think I am sick in the head over their tools and that there must be something wrong with me. LOL
Thanks for the input
Mike
Lie Nielsen #2
I have actually been talking with Lie Nielsen even before I posted this knot.
Updates on odd Lie Nielsen #2
I just wanted to give an update on the odd Lie Nielsen #2.
I have been in contact with the previous owner and Lie Nielsen. It is true that Lie Nielsen has excellent customer service. I had been talking with them and showing them pictures of the plane. It has stumped a few people at Lie Nielsen as well. I have also remained in contact with the original owner as well. The original owner has said that he bought the plane brand new and has yet to identify where he purchased it. I have asked him several times and he always responds but never to where he purchased the plane. He has said that the plane is over 10 years old. He doesnt know exactly when he purchased it but that is his guess. He claims he bought it and that it has been sitting in storage since that first year. He is strongly sticking to his resolve and saying the plane has never been altered.
This Wednesday he sent me a link to Highland woodworking saying that the exact same plane is available from their website. He didnt exactly say he bought it at Highland. I was a little skeptical so I went to the Highland Woodwoorking website and sure enough there was a picture of a number 2 that looked very similar to the plane I had. The only difference is that you couldnt see the lateral adjustment lever from the angle the plane was being presented. I called Highland woodworking and asked them if it was possible to buy a #2 that had the rounded sides like the #1 and they at first told me that the #2 has rounded sides just like a #1 . I felt more confused than I already was especially after the conversation I had with the Lie Nielsen folks in the past week . I will get to those points in a minute. I was then told by Highland Woodworking that the LN#2 had squared sides and that they were not sure if the number two ever had rounded sides or not. It was a very odd coincidence that their website had that picture of a number 2 with rounded sides. They might have had a picture of a number 1 on their website where a picture of a number 2 should have been. The website has since been changed. The people at Highland Woodworking were very nice to me considering they spent 10-15 minutes with a guy who didnt buy this plane from them.
I bought this plane because I knew it was odd or rare. I am of course hoping that it is an early model that never made it into production or something like that. After all I believe that some of the original Bedrock designs were with rounded sides. You can correct me if Im wrong there because that is only what I have read. Probably false hopes. I only bought the plane after seeing that it said number two on the plane and verified that the plane was a Lie Nielsen and that it was completely original. Verified by the man who was selling it.
Now back to Lie Nielsen. They have been fabulous in trying to help me. Like I said I didnt buy this plane from them either. After several emails guess who finally steps in and emails me about the plane. Thomas Lie-Nielsen emailed me directly and reveiwed the pictures that I sent them of the plane completely dismantled and showing every piece and the packaging that the plane came in and paperwork. Here is what he had to say;
Mike
I have talked with my patternmaker and shown him your pictures. It is remotely possible that we did a custom No. 2 like this many years ago, but I doubt it, and certainly do not remember it. In all other respects the tool is standard LN. Do you know when the original owner bought it?
We would be happy to clean up your cap iron and chipbreaker if you would like to send them back to us with a note.
Mysteries are fun, so we've enjoyed this as much as I hope you have - someday maybe we will write up a history/type study.
Happy woodworking,
Thomas
Since then we have agreed to have the plane shipped to Lie Nielsen in the next couple of weeks when the weather shapes up. Mr Lie Nielsen is eager to get his hands on the little bugger to examine it. I am very curious to your guys opinion after you read this. The plane to me still remains a mystery. I guess that could me be just wanting it to be something. What do you guys think. I am sorry it took so long to get back to you but things have been crazy with work and family.
Regards
Mike
I'm betting the sides have been reworked to the current shape
Mike:
I have tools that are far more than 10 years old and I still know where I got them from. It is "telling" that the guy you bought this from isn't telling how he came by the tool. At this point I think either the previous owner or the person he bought the plane from reworked the sides to the current shape. You are correct, the original Bedrock planes had the rounded sides just like the Bailey's have.
gdblake
I know where my tools come from!
gdblake,
I havent been woodworking for 10 years but in the 6 or 7 years that I have been woodworking I have acquired numerous Lie Nielsen Planes, chisels and saws and I can tell you who I bought them from and when I bought them and how much I paid for them. I agree with you on that aspect very much.
It is highly possible that someone has reworked the plane. If that is the case and so far it looks that way. Do you think that I have a right to my money back. I feel, if the plane has been reworked then I have been mislead. It still looks great. I havent used it yet but Im sure it will work great. Keep in mind that the man I bought it from said that no one had opened the box before he had bought it. What would you do if you bought this plane on ebay and then found out it was reworked. I will be honest it sort of makes me mad. I know that I bought it knowing what it looked like but I still asked if it was an original plane and if it had been modified. Do I have a right to be unhappy. Do I have the right to leave a negative feedback against the buyer. It all has been very interesting. It has been nice to talk with the folks at Lie Nielsen. I cant say enough good things about them.
I appreciate the comments. Happy woodworking.
Regards
Mike
Yea, I think I would want my money back.
Mike:
Without knowing what you paid for the plane and being able to see it (and use it) my gut reaction is that I would want my money back. The shape of the sides shouldn't affect how well it works, but your earlier posts leads me to believe you didn't buy the plane to use. I got the feeling you bought it because you thought it was somewhat collectible. From what limited information I have, it appears that the plane was mispresented to some extent (just not sure how much since the guy did post a picture of it.) As far as the seller claiming that no one opened the plane prior to his receiving it, there is really no way for him to know that for sure. Stuff can be reboxed and resealed easily these days.
My guess (purely a guess) is that one of the sides top corners became damaged and the sides were reworked to eliminate the blemish and make the plane sellable. Plane sellers on ebay are nortorious for mispresentation. Good luck though getting your money back if this is what you decide you want.
gdblake
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