LieNielson or Veritas Smoothing Plane
wgsdvm
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
I need a smoothing plane. So I know the LieNielson is THE plane but it sure is pricey! The Veritas I am looking at is about half the price.
The rule of thumb is NEVER skimp on tools especially quality hand tools
So, what are your thoughts on this? I do NOT have a fat wallet, 2 kids in college !!
Replies
Spitfire,
I have the Veritas Low angle Smoothing, and WOW! is it awesome! I use it on every project i work on. It works on end grain as well, and leaves a glass finish, no sanding needed, just finish with a scraper if needed.
I, probably like you, can't afford to get the LN planes, and Veritas is a great way to go. This plane specifically has gotten only good reviews that i've seen in the various woodworking magazines.
I definately do not think you will be disappointed with it.
Veritas makes three "smoothing" planes 1/ a # 4 smooth plance; 2/ the # 4 1/2 smoothing plane; and 3 a new Low Angle Smooth Plane.
The Veritas catalog states that the 4 1/2 smoothing plane is to be used on surfaces "already worked on by other planes or a thickness planer".
I want a smoothing plane for finishing my table, chest tops! Do a go with the # 4 smooth plane? Which one do I purchase???
The choice is really up to you, depending on the size that feels best in your hand and whether you like low-angle planes (the theory is that low-angle planes won't work well for highly figured wood, but people report amazing results with these new low angle smoothing planes and low angle jack planes, sort of defying common wisdom). The qualification you quoted about using the smoothing plane on surfaces that have already been worked by other tools applies to all smoothing planes. They are specifically made for that final smoothing. They do not do well taking off lots of wood.
Spitfire,
I have a Lie-Nielsen #4 and I wouldn't trade it for any other. I also have a Lee Valley low angle smoother that I use as a miter plane.
I have no big complaints about the Lee Valley plane, just a few gripes. It is very well made: the fit and finish are very good; out of the box the sole was flat and the sides were at ninety degrees to the sole (or as close as my primitive tools could measure); the iron came rough ground, with a micro-bevel already rough-ground...Hmm...I guess I do have one or two complaints about the iron. I don't care for the Norris style adjuster; the iron adjustments are finicky and easily knocked out of whack. They put two little screws down at the end of the iron that I have never been able to get to do anything useful.
While the Lee Valley is a wonderful tool, it doesn't inspire the love as does my Lie-Nielsen smoother. Objectively speaking I can't say one is better than the other in any specific way--I just like my LN much much more.
Alan
Edited 11/18/2003 7:25:34 PM ET by Alan
Spitfire,
If you have more time than money (heck, even if you have ample money), it's hard to argue with buying a used a Stanley Bedrock and tuning it up. You can achieve marvelous results for a fraction of the cost of a new plane. I know it's not the sam kind of plane you have in mind, but as an example only, I recently acquired a a mint condition #6 foreplane, complete with intact decal on the rear tote, for $65 at a swapmeet. After a few minutes tuning-up the iron, it works incredibly - and I saved about $300 in the bargain!
Good luck,
Paul
Spitfire,
I have the LV 4 1/2 smoother and really love it. Yes the LN planes are good, but why spend the money if you don't have to or don't have it. You will be really happy with the LV. Great quality and a unique design. If you've never had a LN you'll not know the difference. Certainly anyone looking at your work will not know the difference.
TDF
spitfire,
I would consider buying an old Stanley. You can get really nice ones #4 or a 4-1/2 for about $25 to $50. A little clean up and buy a new high quality blade and you got a plane that's hard to beat.
That said...
I also own several LV planes. The low angle is wonderful. I've used LN planes and they are very nice but I would have a hard time justifying the price on my income.
My dad says "Fear the man with one gun. He knows how to use it." So I guess that would follow for any hand tool. It's not the tool maker, it's the user ultimately produces the furniture.
Hope this helps.
Enjoy,
Len
spitfire,
You may want to consider Clifton also. They have received much praise in the past on this forum.
They and the LN planes are available at http://www.thebestthings.com at discounted prices. In fact, this is the only place I have seen the LN for below full retail. I have ordered from them and received good service.
Doc,
Correct, but I don't think that the Best Things irons are not always A2 , and that's why their prices are less.
Mike
Mike,
Are you suggesting that The Best Things are substituting lesser irons for the original equipment irons? i.e. the LN and Cliftons planes are sold with some other manufacturers irons? Wouldn't that be dishonest?
JW
Edited 11/17/2003 12:29:55 AM ET by DR WATSON
Doc,
There are not substituting anything. What I meant was that they are the older O1 irons and not the newer A2 cryo irons....hence the price difference. L-N went to A2 about a year ago and the A2 irons have the Lie-Nielson USA stamp on them while the O1 irons do not.....at least that's what I was told. Just ask before you buy.
Mike
Mike,
Thanks for pointing that out. I have not kept up with the plane market well enough to have known that. I will be sure to askbefore I buy. My next plane will be a #7 and Clifton and L-N seem to be the most logical choices in that size and.
JW
Edited 11/17/2003 10:20:01 AM ET by DR WATSON
J W
If the remainder of the plane is still the same, I wouldn't be overly concerned. Think of it this way. They are about $60 to $75 cheaper. If you are not satisfied with the HSS steel iron, you can purchase a A2 for the difference and throw a 50* degree "York" pitch on the iron that came with the plane. This would give you a little versatility at the same price you paid retail for elsewhere.
Just a little fuel for thought. BTW, I looked at the Clifton #7 yesterday at Highland hardware as I am also in the market for a #7. It's a bed-rock with a few improvements. Nice piece of work. It's hefty, real hefty.
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sarge
do you have thoughts re a #8 instead of a #7 ?
seems that the #8 should make a better jointer
Ian
ian
Yeah, a lot of thoughts. A whole head full of them as it is a difficult decision.
I'm debating the #7 Clifton or the E.C.E. Primus Try plane at 23 5/8" which is more or less equilavent to a #8. I have test driven both and each has certain qualities I like. Each seems to be made well and both preformed well on the test bench.
And the decision is driving me crazy. I have though about flipping a coin. Or I could just let you decide for me. It's that close. Hey, you making the decision is a good idea. If I have after-thoughts latter, I can shift the blame to you. :>)
Seriously, it's a toss-up at the moment. I don't think I would be hurt with either. If you have any suggestions, throw them out as it's absolutely driven me "nuts". (My wife may suggest that happened long before this matter) ha..ha..
Suggestions?..... Fire away, I'm all ears...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
The answer is simple sarge. Buy both.Tom
Douglasville, GA
Tom
And just when I thought you had gone into recluse in that gigantic shop of yours, you appear as a voice from behind a burning bush. "Buy both". :>)
And I would like to, but this old farmer doesn't have the kind of liquitable cash to do so. I'm not in the airlines industry like some. he.... My wife gives me $1 a week to spend and that would take a while to save up enough for both. But all hope is not lost. I'm working on a way to counter-feit lotto tickets. I wonder if they have a WW'ing shop over at Atlanta Federal Penitentiary? ha..ha..
BTW, I was going to Highland Hardware this week-end, but decided to go during the week since I'm on vacation. Guess who showed up at the "chair-making" classes. Former President Carter. I haven't seen him since about 3 years ago when I ran into him there as he was buying sand-paper.
Have a good day out in the "Big D", Tom...
sarge..jt Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I must have just missed hime as I was there earlier that day. I did hear about the visit later though. I saw him there a few years ago.
Tom
Douglasville, GA
Edited 11/18/2003 12:04:41 PM ET by Tom
Tom
How I found out is I went to the Highland web-site to take a peek at something before going. The pictures of President Carter sitting and milling around in the chair making session are on the current web-site.
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Just a quick thought on the Best Things LN prices. Perhaps Mike bought his LN plane on the cusp so to speak. That time period when LN was changing over to A2 steel blades. Best Things may have had some LN planes in stock with the old steel blades and shipped one to Mike when he ordered. Last Thursday I ordered a LN #4 1/2 from Best Things on line and was called by them to let me know that there would be 2-3 week back order on this plane. I can only assume that they are waiting for a shipment from LN thus, the planes will arrive with whatever innovations LN is currently using on all of their planes.
I was buying a L-N plane, and called L-N and asdked about Bestthings. I was told that L-N does not sell to BT, and that L-N does not know where BT gets its stock from. So, I bought from L-N, as I have done too often for financial good health. If you want to shoot, the iron miter is fabulous!
Alan
JPAR12
You make an excellent point and highly likely.
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sarge,
I received the Highland Hardware Winter 2004 Catalog yesterday and was a bit surprised at their prices for the Clifton planes. They are much more than the Cliftons at Bestthings as some have mentioned in previous messages. But if your considering buying two number 7's and are shopping with the former President of the US then money is not a problem for you.
http://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/clifton.htm
Edited 11/18/2003 2:34:33 PM ET by Lar
Lar
I meet and was in a seminar with President Carter many years ago with Tage Frid, if memory serves me correct. Very intelligent, nice person and Miss Rosalyn is like-wise.
Highland doesn't always have the best prices. Keep in mind they don't necessarily buy in quantity. Best Things is run by a husband and wife with what over-head? They may not even keep inventory. No major advertising. No electric, water, or rent-lease-buy building. The answer is a web-site with two people manning the staff from home. Very low over-head with two most likely part-time employees. That reduces to lower price still maintaining a profit.
What Highland does have is an educated staff able to answer technical questions and the assurance of backing the sale as they have for 25 years.
Now I didn't say I was buying from Highland in this case. But I was testing at Highland as they have facilities to do so. If you called Best Things and ask if the Clifton used the old Bed-rock frog design, the iron was A2 or HSS do you suppose they would know. If you have a problem with a defective part on a Clifton 4 years from now and call Best Things, will they still be there and fix your problem. Maybe and maybe not. I know what my guess is.
Best Things has advantages for those that already know. Price.. Highland has advantages for those that don't. They do know, stock what they feel is quality and they support the customer after the sale. I support that approach. At Best Things, I'm a credit card number. At Highland, I'm Sarge... from Ms. Pattie at the cash register up front to upstairs where the two store cats (Katmandu and Genghis Khan) are likely napping on top of the Japanese water stones.
Highland Hardware has probably done more to promote WW'ing in the south than any other single thing. I like that atmosphere. Do I mind paying a little extra to keep it around? Hey, cat food for monster cats ain't cheap!! ha..ha..
Didn't mean to preach, just hate missing a chance to plug a small business that cares after the "ring-ee-ding-ee" at the register has long faded. :>)
Regards...
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 11/18/2003 7:31:36 PM ET by SARGE
Edited 11/18/2003 7:34:59 PM ET by SARGE
Sarge,
Can't argue with that logic. Besides Highlands Clifton prices are about the same as Garrett Wades. Best Things does have a technical handplane guru on staff for questions. I've yet to buy anything there but was a bit intrigued with those low prices.
Time for a Guinness, enjoy your evening.
Lar
Lar
You know exactly what you want and are going to get in a plane before you call. You don't need the hand-plane guru. Neither do I in this case, I got you guys. This makes the $70 give or take savings worthwhile in favor of Best Things in this particular case.
The over 8000 other specialty items that Highland carries that Best Things doesn't have much less a clue on is where I will spend the extra at Highland. In this case I agree with you and will probably follow suit. In both our cases, it just makes economic sense.
Enjoy the Guiness, I will also follow suit. ha..ha..
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 11/18/2003 9:52:27 PM ET by SARGE
Sarge,
We could take up a collection for you to buy both! Ummm...wait...Yeah, we could take up collection for me to buy both. Oops, now I'm confused.
You get a whole dollar a week! Wow, I just get the pleasure of gasing up the wifes car.
TDF
Tom
Yep, just one dollar. That's before she takes out the federal, state and FICA taxes.
I suppose if things get critical, I could get a job. I went to night school and learned to install screen doors on submarines. That job just never seems to appear in the Help Wanted section anymore though. ha..ha..
Have a good night, Tom...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Do I mind paying a little extra to keep it [Highland Hardware] around?
my rule of thumb is 5-10% with an upper limit of about $200
I already have a #6 so lean towards the length of an #8, despite the greater mass.
Have never tried an E.C.E. Primus Try.
Given the choice, my decision tree would be how easy it is to set the blade parallel to the soleThen how easy it is to finely set the depth of cut Then I'd go with the plane with the greater massThen which feels best in the handsThen I'd look at how easy it is to adjust the mouth opening.
ian
See what I mean by you don't need the plane guru to advise you on which plane suits you best. That is an excellent approach and outlined well in a good working order. Well done.
Agree on the pricing, What I would do with the big price difference in this case (and it is large) is ask Highland to price match or come as close as possible. If it's close, the buck stops there. If they can't, $70 is a significant savings that could be applied elsewhere. But I would give them the opportunity to make a profit first if possible. I owe them that in loyalty.
Regards...
sarge.jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I had a chance to go to the Cloverdale Wood Show (end of Oct 2003 in Cloverdale BC) to check out to newest Vertias offerings in planes and see how they compared to the LN versions.
On the whole, the LV 4 1/2 was a very nice plane. It adjusted easily and with precision, had an excellent blade (A2 tool steel) with enough weight to give it some authority. Both the LV and the LN planes are pretty expensive but the Veritas was only $249 C verses $450 C for the LN. The LV foot adjustment is a bit out of the ordinary but seemed to hold the blade with good support near the edge. I couldn't get it to take off transparent shavings of wood, but then again, it hadn't been touched by an 8000 gold stone.
I have owned and used a few planes and one of the best things I ever did was get a pair of Hock high carbon blades for my #4 and #7 Records. The extra thickness of the blade helps a great deal when doing a final pass to smooth things over. A friend got a 603 Stanley Bedrock in his Grandads tools when he died and after tuning it up, it worked very nicely. I asked Rob Cosman (the Canadian distibutor for LN) if the modern blade and cap iron would fit this old Bedrock and he said it might with a bit of filing. If you want LN performance and a reduced price, you could try retrofitting an old Bedrock Plane with a LN blade and cap iron.
Next time you wave at me, use ALL your fingers. ;)
johnh
I got the Veritas medium shoulder plane recently and it's a nice piece of work, IMO.
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Hi spitfire,
I went through the same thing a short time ago. I wanted a good plane to use rather than look at and admire. I also didn't want to spend a lot of time learning how to tune up an old plane. I would rather spend my time working on wood than metal.
As a result, I bought a LV 4 1/2 as a first "all around" plane. Of course there is no such thing and have since bought a LV Low Angle Block and a couple of shoulder planes. And there will be more, of couse. The LV 4 1/2 is everything I had hoped for.
I would suggest you read some reviews here: http://host65.ipowerweb.com/~traditi2/forum/article_cat.php?fldAuto=2 to help you make up your mind. The guys on the board are very knowedgable about all kinds of planes and some even make their own (from kits).
Hope this helps you,
Ken
Hi all,
"Spitfire" wrote:
<I need a smoothing plane. So I know the LieNielson is THE plane but it sure is pricey! The Veritas I am looking at is about half the price.>
First- let me say that I am absolutely a Lee Valley fan(atic)! Absolutely ... both their tools AND their customer service (which is second only to perhaps Lie-Nielsen). That having been said- I purchased the L.V. L-A smoother to use with a shooting board ... or at least to be able to go back and forth between using it on a shooting board and using it on board faces ("smoothing").
My feeling is that a plane designed for use with a shoothing board -- and Lee Valley acknowledges shooting as one of this plane's three "key uses" -- should have sides absolutely square to its sole ... so that it can be used on surfaces and edges (iow smoothing and shooting) without having to skew the blade in this way or that. Well, "no go" with this plane.
I was surprised to learn that Lee Valley's tolerances for this aspect is 15 minutes (or perhaps more easily understood- one will be able to squeeze a .006" feeler gauge between the blade of an engineer's square and the side of this plane). This is too much out-of-square for at least my typical shooting efforts (small picture frames made of hardwoods). I asked them to send me another plane -- that perhaps that one would be closer to square -- which they did free of charge. The replacement was better but still not close enough; it awaits a trip to the machine shop for some party-time on a surface grinder.
It does seem to be a great design, and a great plane in most other respects ... but I'm curious as to what other folks think about this; should a "proper" shooting plane have a sole square to it's side wings ... or ought we *expect* to spend some time fussing with skewing the blade when switching to this use?
-Peter T.
It does seem to be a great design, and a great plane in most other respects ... but I'm curious as to what other folks think about this; should a "proper" shooting plane have a sole square to it's side wings ... or ought we *expect* to spend some time fussing with skewing the blade when switching to this use?
Pete..
When first feeling my way into shooting boards, I spent days trying to get comfortable using my #5 jack flipped onto it's side. Try as I might I just couldn't... never felt ike I'd any control over the tool, much less find a comfortable grip. I spent weeks drooling over the #9 Lie Nielson thinking.... if only. That ended the day it was sent to me by mistake... call me weak but I just didn't have the strength to exchange it for the plane that SHOULDA been delivered. Instead, I called the supplier, straightened out the shipping mistake and had the #9 billed to me too. 4 months and god alone knows how many board feet later... I've but one regret.... I shoulda bought it sooner... worth it's weight in gold. Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
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