In a discussion about metalwork, Philip and I have been having what ended up as a private conversation about using angle grinders and the new thin (1 and 1.6mm) disks as a way of cutting tool steel.
‘They’re really really great, he said, cut through steel like the proverbial …’
So (and this is not a brag, guys, I’m working on an exit strategy) I bought myself an angle grinder today (a Metabo 100mm/4inch), and a few disks, and had a play with an old cast steel plane iron from my junk box. I needed to make a spade-shaped iron for the shoulder plane casting I’m using as a training exercise and test-bed (before and after photos this weekend).
Had to cut a few mm off each side, each cut about 75mm (~3 inches) long, then make a short (6mm, 1/4 in) cut in from the side to form the spade end. Then trim the spade end so it was flush with the outside of the plane.
Have only ever used an angle grinder once or twice before, but with Philip’s words in my mind’s eye, away I went.
All I can say is … cheez! They do cut fast. They don’t heat up much (I could pick up the workpiece right after finishing each cut), there’s a spectacular shower of sparks (I checked that I could still see the fire extinguisher) and it’s possible to cut to woodworking tolerances (within 1mm of a line). Took me about 30 mins to cut the iron to size and file to finish.
The little Metabo is a nice machine. $NZ250, so top of the price range, but a 5 year guarantee and a compact, light, quiet machine.
By the way, in my town there’s a big box retailer – The Warehouse – selling a Chinese-made angle grinder for $16. Yes, $16!. People buy them for weekend jobs because they’re cheaper than hire and throw them away when finished! What’s the world coming to!
Malcolm
Edited 10/19/2005 2:05 am ET by Malcolm
Replies
So, angle grinders are fun, eh? The only time I've used one was to cut the lock off a storage room after losing the key. Worked great for that, for sure! Sounds like your use a a bit more sophisticated.
"I could pick up the workpiece right after finishing each cut" Reminded me of one of the dumb moves of the summer. Was using a bushing and template set-up with a PC laminate trimmer to fine-tune a display stand. Didn't realize the collet was rubbing on the fitting that held the bushing in. Turned the trimmer off after 15 or 20 seconds of running, reached under and grabbed that brass collar. OUCH! It was hot!!
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
> So, angle grinders are fun, eh <
Sure are - and quick! I guess I pick up a hacksaw once or twice in an average day in my shop, and I'm guessing almost all of those jobs will now be done with the little angle grinder. The 'kerf' with a 1mm disk is about the same as a hacksaw, so with care, no waste. And by steadying the hold, it's possible to cut at least as straight as a hand hacksaw.
What else are they good for folks?
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
<What else are they good for folks?>I love mine too. I have a wheel thats like an inverted cup with carbide nodes attached that wastes wood for hogging out carved sections. There are polishing wheels for stone and steel that are layered sandpapers in a range of grits that I use for sanding and polishing stainless. Also, the always useful wire wheels in flat and cupped styles for whatever use you can dream up. Malcolm, you might need to buy another-one for each hand. aloha, mike
It's great to hear that the grinder is working well. Nice choice with the Metabo, they are some of the best small grinders made. I just want to offer a caution. Be VERY CAREFUL to not twist or bind the abrasive wheel during the cut. If you do, it will shatter and send nasty shrapnel all over. Trust me, I have seen my fair share of guys (including me) getting inbedded pieces out of their abdomen. These wheels are fast, but extremely dangerous because they're thin and brittle. Also, Holtey's design is superior to dovetails because the joint does not penetrate the metal edge, but for all practical reasons, locked dovetails should never fail under regular smoothing if made correctly. His design requires extensive milling to make the round "dowels" protruding from the sole plate. I don't think Victorians welded bacause it was not a common practice in the late nineteenth century. Althouth, today it is a viable option for a plane body, but warping will be a serious issue to all but the most experienced welder. LAP LAP LAP! Everything back then was riveted or cast. Riveting is essentially what locked dovetails are though, right?
Thanks for the heads up on thin wheels. I've been cautious, and not pushed it, and so far only tackled thin (ish - no more than 5mm/quarter inch) mild steel and brass plate.
I've been talking to various experts on soldering/silver soldering/brazing/welding, and read a few articles about applying heat to metal constructions, and it seems that the more one can avoid heat the better.
When my palm plane prototype is done, I'm going to take it around the local engineers and look for someone who can mill me a square-section (aka finger joint) joint. Easing a square, snug fit and then peening to fill the gaps (even if only a few thou) should make a tight joint. The infill does a good job on these small planes as well.
The only part of thIS job that's been a struggle has been cutting and fitting the small dovetails - my first serious attempt at fine metalwork, and not much of a joy.
Shaping and fitting the infill and lever wedge, and polishing, has been fun, and I'd like to do a small run of these planes (which I think look quite cool) whwn this one is done.
Malcolm
http://www.macpherson.co.nz
Mayor AND a PhD making planes... Good for you... I work a bit of metal.. If you really like to do it you HAVE to get yourself a used mill... You will give up your day jobs and use up all the metal you can find!G'Day..
> and use up all the metal you can find <
Trouble is, Will, I have all these woodwork projects to do as well ... 3 adult kids who one day will settle down, and I want to make them all a few nice, transportable, NZ native timber (matai, rimu, kauri and totara) pieces of furniture.
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Malcolm, Will is right on-a milling machine is a must, and it does not have to be a fancy one for plane making purposes.
As it happens , I had to go to Auckland today, and dropped in to Carbatec. I saw that mini mill #mill-x1, which looks ideal for the job....Costs $600 which is not much when one considers that a set of good files will cost at least $100.Then again, you may be able to find some old iron there, at better value-depends on what engineering contacts you have.
I am keen to hear your comments on Kingshotts book. I think his instructions on metalworking are excellent.Philip Marcou
Welcome to the flock, o converted one. Small warning-the gentleman who lives behind me builds aloominum boats (alinyumnum in Zimspeak) and he got careless with that little thin wheel-it kicked back into his face and put a smile on the face of the resident dentist.....
I am into my second night of building my Bevel up Veritas-like smoother with dovetailed sides-will post pics of progress later tonight.
Both FG and Philip - the thing that takes most getting used to - as a woodworker who has never realy taken on 'metal' - is the spectacular fireworks display.
Rooster tail of sparks all over my highly combustable shop, plus the smell of hot metal.
But. Hey. Retire the hacksaw! It's amazing what a 1mm wheel will do! This is a new world. Bring on the metal.
Malcolm http://www.macpherson.co.nz
Er, your wish is my command,sire. Herewith some pictures of work in progress on the smoothing plane. I am using 5mm gauge plate, which is not as easy to work as ordinary bright mild steel stock-but shillings are scarce at the moment so I just use what I have on hand.
The two sides and the sole were cut with that small Startrite bandsaw-you need to run the blade at 50feetper minute to cut gauge plate (high carbon or 01 steel) so you can see the blue 40:1 Radicon gearbox driven by the motor under the table. The usual motor for the saw is in the cabinet, and I fitted a counter shaft so that there are other speeds for stuff like brass. All that is from knife making days.
I then dimensioned the two sides together on the milling drill-same for the sole plate.
My Emco lathe has a small milling machine, which should do the dovetails -you can see the 60* cutter in the collet.
Should be cutting steel d/t's tomorrow night.
Why don't I cut the steel with angle-grinder? Because this is annealed flat stock ,and the bandsaw is the preferred method (if you have a suitable bandsaw).Philip Marcou
Apologies to the rest of the world - where do you buy your steel Philip?
I've been looking at prices of pr5ecision-ground tool steel and brass plate at Starrett in the US, and even ex shipping they're steep.
Looks like we'll be swapping photos this weekend!
Race you!
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Oh no -I'm not racing this kind of thing...
I've had that plate for some time-bought it in Zimbabwe when I was into the making of hunting knives. Lost the original packing paper, but I sem to remember the name Bohler Steel.
Yep, anything to do with the words 'precision' 'flat ground' 'high carbon' etc and brass is expensive-and then you add 'Starrett' and the price doubles.Philip Marcou
Been in in Zimbabwe a few times but just watchin' Animal Planet on Cable TV!
Sorry-I did not "get" what you were really asking-how to obtain the steel. You can't be too far from an engineering machine shop, even on the south island-they may sell you some or at least tell you where the nearest supplier is. Gauge plate, flat ground stock etc. is the life blood of tool makers.No model engineers in that neck of the woods?Philip Marcou
Yeah, thanks
The nearest supplier to me is in Dunedin, where I only get a few times a month. There are some fabricators there, and a really impressive metal recycler (potentially a good source of sheet brass, if not tool steel). I'll take a look around when next in town.
I called in to chat to my local engine reconditioner on the way home tonight, and he found me some 50 by 6mm mild steel and a couple of 4mm by 50 mm strips of brass. While I wait for the Shepherd kit to arrive, I'll have a go at making a metal copy of a (failed) mouse-shaped wooden block plane I made a couple of years ago. He says no-one in this town will have tool steel in the dimensions I want.
I thought about model engineers. Some of those guys are very well set up, and very skillfull. I don't know of any, but will ask around.
Just chopped off 200mm of the flat steel strap with my angle grinder and filed the end square!
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Do you know that you can get a stand for an angle grinder that converts it into a chop saw like item from Miter10?Philip Marcou
> Do you know that you can get a stand for an angle grinder that converts it into a chop saw like item from Miter10 <
I didn't, but will investigate this tomorrow!
About opening the mouth - the little plane I'm laying out and cutting to size tonight is only 130mm (5 inches) long, with only 40mm in front of the mouth, and the blade angle will be 12.5 degrees (as I recall). I've read arguments in favour of both approaches, and seen one example where the two pieces of the sole were tongue and grooved together to get the alignment right. I'm going to trust my skill and make a 2-piece sole! Filing is the only choice I've got!
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Good luck. If you have a belt grinder you can always sand it to within lapable limits.These days there are belt grinders cum linishing machines available for not a lot of money. I made a beast of a machine when I was making knives-I rate the belt grinder to be one of the most versatile machines a woodworker, metalworker, farmer or brain surgeon can have- the efficiency of coated abrasive belts run at suitable fpm has to be seen to be believed. If you are getting keen on metal keep this is mind.Philip Marcou
Have you seen this!?
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Can you just send it here quickly, I want to check the dove tails :-)
Wow, have you got your kit already???
There seems to be many similarities between that and the veritas .Philip Marcou
Should have explained. The exploded illustration (above) is a Holtey plane (go to http://www.holteyplanes.com). This one uses pins and holes to fix on the stainless sides (instead of dovetails) because (as I recall) it's metalurgically better. I wondered, when I saw this illustration, whether an alternative approach might be to drill through the sides into the sole, and machine screw (into the tapped holes) or rivet the sides on.
By the way - my dumb question of the week - why not just braze/weld the sides on? Why did the Victorian plane makers use dovetails, and not 'weld'?
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Holtey-superb looking. As someone remarked previously-"would have an effect on the New Zealand balance of payments".
Certainly there are alternatives to dovetailing the thing together-but none as good looking. I would just silver solder the thing-very strong and virtually invisible, unlike brazing and the nasty welding. Screwing it together is good , especially when the sole is thick like a brick-as in Holtey-can you get one for Christmas?
I am regretting using gauge plate for mine-takes longer to mill-have now done 3 out of the 4 joins. I hope it will peen as expected....Should have used bms and brass....
Maybe a cybermachinist can give some tips for peening the gauge plate.Philip Marcou
Hi Philip,
Cut the dovetails slightly overlength and peen/pein them in with a centrepunch. When done, file/scrape/lap the excess off
As well, I think it was Malcolm asking - no need to go to US for plate, Bohler are worldwide, I was going to suggest them - they're not Bohler any more, I recall they've changed name after a buyout to Uddeholm. Check for a local supplier - you're looking for 'precision flat ground tool steel'
Cheers,
eddie
edit: google knows ->
http://www.bohler-edelstahl.com/index.htm?url=/english/b_1777.php
http://www.buau.com.au/english/b_2488.htm
Edited 10/20/2005 4:56 am by eddiefromAustralia
Thanks Eddie. I just want to be clear about what we are talking about here: to me "flat ground precision TOOL steel" means Gauge plate=01 oil hardening high carbon steel.I am using this because it is what I have on hand-I would rather use flat groung bright mild steel for the plane body-it is soft and easy to work.So you confirm that I will peen the 01 as normal?Philip Marcou
We're talking apples and apples here Philip, - while the tool steel/gauge plate is annealed it works the same as mild steel. I'd just use what you have there, unless you want to turn it into blades
Cheers,
eddie
Eddie - thanks for the pointer to the steel suppliers.
You say > file/scrape/lap < when cleaning up steel/brass dovetails. I can do the first, I think I can do the last, but what about scaping? With what?
I'm having trouble getting from a nice crisp filed surface to a polished surface. Sanding sort of works, but it's hard not to dub over the edges.
Malcolm http://www.macpherson.co.nz
Tool and die makers use scrapers when they want a truly flat surface, flat in a sense FAR beyond what we woodworkers need. They use what is in essense a blunt chisel to scrap away steel and it is a time consuming process. It also adds the ability to hold oil in minute scratches, something we don't want. Sand it flat and you are good to go.
As for peening over the dovetails, I would NOT use a pinpunch unless you made a special round nose one about 1/4 with a nearly flat face. Pin punches will leave deep marks you will be unable to sand out.
As for sanding, are you moving the sandpaper over the plane or the plane over the sandpaper? I would use the weight of the plane and move it over a lapping plate, like the guys who do the "scary sharp" sharpening method use.
Malcolm
Really easily made by getting a piece of HSS used for metal working lathe tools, say 3*15mm, grinding a bevel at about 30* similar to a chisel and leaving the end between 90 & 80* as a very steep microbevel. This only needs to be .5mm. Put a handle on because you push these tools by hand like a paring chisel.
Also really useful for finishing the bed on a wooden plane.
If you have access to some second hand power hacksaw blades, most of the ones I have seen used by machinists have been made from that.
David
"...why not just braze/weld the sides on? Why did the Victorian plane makers use dovetails, and not 'weld'?"
Hi Malcolm,
My guess woud be because of the likelihood of heat distorting the steel.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
And I guess (I'm no metallurgist) it was difficult to 'weld' steel and brass/bronze/gunmetal together.
I have a small Bristol Design block plane I bought (in Bristol, England, from the maker - actually I swapped it, but that's another story - in the early 80s) which has a thin steel sole attached to the bottom of a gun metal cast body.
It's an infill, in the traditional style.
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
You're a lucky man, Malcolm.
I've been coveting a York pitch smoother, the best of which are reputedly of the English infill variety.
Perhaps I'll reward myself with one if I ever become unexpectedly wealthy. Until then, I've begun the process of researching smoothing planes with the idea of building one myself. I just finished making my first wood-bodied hand plane a la David Finck. It's fun, rewarding, and certainly more economical than buying one.
I was considering a kit - the Shepherd - until I started hearing horror stories from friends about quality and delivery.
Thanks for the thought-provoking post,
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
> I was considering a kit - the Shepherd - until I started hearing horror stories from friends about quality and delivery <
I've got one on the way! Ordered and paid for a couple of weeks ago. Should be here soon (NZ Customs willing). I'll keep a photo record of the project!
Philip (also in NZ) is building one of his own design as we speak!
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
And here's what CajunDan says, in another conversation
> Also in the same ballpark cost as the L/N planes are the infill kits by Shepherd Tool Works. I've built the Spiers Smoother kit in cocobolo, and it is a beautiful plane. When finely-tuned, it rivals my L/N #4 1/2 york pitch smoother. This was my first attempt, and it might help avoid the Holtey price <
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Thanks!-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Malcolm, it is inevitable with this sort of thing to find now and again a hitch or two.May need a bit of work to rectify but would not worry as long as they send you the all the parts, and the right ones too.Chances are good that your kit will be up to expectations.
My plane is advancing at a reasonable pace.Philip Marcou
Yeah - the Shepherd guys are a couple of engineers doing their best.
My judgement is that they make a good product ... but sucessful businesses are hardly ever run by the guys who push the tools. Making a product and making a business are quite different skills.
Malcolm http://www.macpherson.co.nz
Malcolm,
I am in Christchurch and have a clever welder type mate who can weld anything to anything, his clever mate who can build anything out of nothing and a co-worker who can do all kinds of clever stuff with steel......like fabricate custom suspension bars for race cars etc.
Between the 3 I can get some steel you would want. If you want me to send some, let me know.
AJ
Whatever it was.................I didnt do it.
Jeez mate, where've you been!
I'm not talking about very much, and happy to pay market rates!
Can you email me at the website please? Below.
Malcolm
http://www.macpherson.co.nz
Edit - thinking about it, what are the chances that your magician friends will be able to solder/braze/weld brass or bronze to tool steel? It wasn't done traditionally for hand tools (as I understand) because of the problems with heat and distortion. But I have a gunmetal and steel block plane where it has been done - made in the 80s.
You may just have solved a problem for me!
Malcolm
Edited 10/25/2005 5:56 am ET by Malcolm
Where I been?............hanging out at Breaktime mostly. :-)
I used to be here more when I actually had the time to make a few woodworky type things, now I am a full time chippy again and dont know where to fit all the work.
Bought a bandsaw about 2 months ago, wanted one for years........havent turned it on yet. <sigh>
email coming.
Whatever it was.................I didnt do it.
Folks, herewith my first bevel up smoother as mentioned in post 31. For those interested in this kind of madness,some details:-
Dimensions-I added about 20mm to the part in front of the blade, compared to the Stanley 51/2.
Weight-about 13/4 lbs more than that Stanley-per bathroom scale.
Materials-01 gauge plate for body dovetailed together, scrap brass and bronze, bms, Imbuia handle and ###4@zimwood for knob.
Blade-takes Veritas.
Bed angle-15*.
It actually was squarish when beaten together-confirmed by the old boy who surface ground it-took exactly 16 minutes-kept trying to find a "full thou".
Result-works nicely as is, but I may reduce the opening from the present 1.75mm in front of blade to about .75mm by letting in a plate acros the mouth.It needs two blades so I can have a york pitch.
Time taken-a bloody long time.I am cured of this mania ( for the time being).
Thanks to Tcalisto, MichaelPB and all for advice.
Philip Marcou
Edited 10/30/2005 2:10 am by philip
Wow
Pretty cool!
May be madness, but what a tool, eh!
So, back to my question ... what would one of these cost?
Malcolm
I almost finished a small (130mm) palm plane of dovetailed brass and mild steel this weekend (in prep for my Shepherd kit, which is still 'on the water' apparently). I'm happy about the design, but not about the execution. Dovetails a bit variable!
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
"on the water"?-you mean it is not coming by courier?:)....no good not good.
Nasty question that. The short answer is it will cost too much, based on the following:-
Time taken was 61 hours, which included head scratching (development costs). So if I now make another of the same design I estimate I could kick it out in 40 hours, so the costing would be :-
Labour -40hours at NZ$50 = $2000
One Veritas blade $70
Gauge plate, brass, steel $100-estimated-no idea what these cost here.
Even if the labour is costed at $40 per hour it is steep. I am told by the cognoscenti who have seen my work that I should charge a minimum of $50 per hour.
I know a competent machinist could do the metalwork in less time than I can, especially if he has fancy equipment like cnc mills etc.I will ask the old boy who did the surface grinding for an estimate of his time-believe me he can churn out huge complications in short time....
In short it is not commercially viable for me , unless I come across that rare beast who wants something specifically made by me, not copied, for a specific purpose-ofcourse I can conjure up some wicked pieces of timber....
Re your Shepherd-what work do they expect te customer to do-is peening the dovetails to be done?If it is brass to be peened, it is a lot easier than that gauge plate. In fact, if I make another plane, I will only use gauge plate on the sole, and brass for the sides.Philip Marcou
2 to 3k is about what I'd expect!
There does seem to be a market for elite tools in that market - but whether from New Zealand who knows!
The A6 I've ordered from Shepherd is brass/steel. They say 10-12 hours to finish, and my understanding is that the major job is filing secondary/compund dovetails and then peining.
We'll see!
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Philip - you've got a cool marketing opportunity there!
Write a short story about this project - why you did it, how, the international and internet (knots) angles. There are a number of possible story lines - 'better that the best of the past', 'elite tools for discerning users', 'folly by local woodworker yields exemplary hand-crafted hand tool', 'exotic materials crafted into piece of workshop jewellery', 'worldwide network motivates local craft worker' ... send it/deliver it to your local or nearest metro paper (and to Noth and South, House and Gardens, the Listener ... anyone who will listen.
Why would you?
This tool could become a key part of your business identity. What it establishes is a 'brand you' that's about excellence, exemplary craft skills and something a bit exotic and 'different'.
I'd be surprised if that didn't bring invitations, inquiries, and work!
Malcolm
http://www.macpherson.co.nz
Edited 10/30/2005 4:53 am ET by Malcolm
Edited 10/30/2005 4:54 am ET by Malcolm
Malcolm,thanks, you have watered a little seed-I have been pondering along very similar lines.
However, I'll need to be circumspect on why I did it-in truth it started off as mainly an anti-depression exercise, but as it went along I started thinking along different lines.
Things are sent to us in strange ways...
Keep thinking!
Philip Marcou
Jeez Philip, it doesn't matter why you really did it!
But even if you went with that line, it would still make a good story.
The thing is, well-made hand tools are such attractive and cool items ... anyone who fancies their DIY/weekend skills will drool over that plane!
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Phillip
Been looking at your other stuff over the last couple of days and have been inspired into the style for the eldest boy's new bedroom.
I have always liked the idea of a campaign chest, but doing a bedroom in such a style which would stand a couple of moves into and out of group houses after he finishes school (about to start high school, which will give you a fair idea of my lead times here) and can carry in the average trailer seems a good idea.
So, if imitation is the sincerest from of flattery - soak it up.
David
Welding as done in the Victorian era was done by blacksmiths by heating and beating parts together, they couldn't do the sort of high end welding we do with electricity.
I know nothing of plane making (I play with making guns though) but my guess is they could have apprentices cutting the dovetails and beating the planes together and it allowed a tight assembly with low skill requirements.
I think this insantity around fancy planes is well, insane. With small scale CNC machining, you should be able to crank out fancy/goofy looking planes on the cheap, sort of like those double dovetails that people make with the Incra jig.
I wanted to make a high end plane to WORK, I would start with an extruded piece of "U" so you had the equivelent of a forging which is as strong as things get.
Besides, most of this search for "accuracy" is bogus anyway. Unless you flatten the sole first and then surface grind the contact points for the frog you have already introduced innacuracy right there. Same goes with the frog, unless you flatten one surface and then use that in a fixture to allow the grinding of the other surface in relation to it you will not end up with a frog that presents the blade parallel to the sole. Not to mention the sides not being 90 deg to the sole AND parallel to the other side. Much of this is pretty petty stuff, but when people are telling me they are going to spend 3,000 POUND, or about $4,500 on a flipping plane I just have to laugh.
Don't get me wrong, I love nice tools. I am making some nice handles this weekend for some crappy chinese chisels but what the heck, we have our weaknesses.
Good points Michael
I wonder about planes as well - you don't need any better than a cheap retail tool to do a reasonable job, and if you want better then L-N or Veritas is as good as anyone 'needs'.
But I think planes (owning, using, maybe even collecting) is as much about form as function, and for some people, even more about emotion. And to be fair, a well made plane is a thing of beauty - look at a Holtey (on line) and tell me it's not a highly desireable object, regardless of what it does!
I've made custom planes out of wood in the recent past, and quite liked the look, but not the functionality. I'm going to make a Shephed kitset (it's on the water) next, and also try to reproduce my wooden planes in metal. I guess a piece of U would be an OK place to start, but not nearly as nice to look at as a steel and brass dovetailed tool.
Thanks for your response
Malcolm
http://www.macpherson.co.nz
Michael,
like this? http://www.hntgordon.com.au/prodcat34sh.htm
These have been very favourably reviewed in a few magazines over the last year or so against planes at 3* the price. The retail in Aust for about $130. Trying to drop hints to SWMBO for the next birthday - so far she refuses to acknowledge the existance of catalogues in the house.
But I guess I aspire to making a dovetailed plane becuase I just do. I acknowledge that it makes about as much sense as dirving a horse drawn cart to go camping or playing in a swing band, or any of the other silly things we all do.
I own a couple of HNT Gordon planes (a little ebony shoulder plane and a long ironwood jointer) and I love them! Not too expensive, beautifully made and highly functional.
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Malcolm,
To help ease the pain of shelling out $250 on an angle grinder have a look at the arbortech accessories for these little beasties. http://www.arbortech.com.au/woodmain.html
If I remember correctly from my time in Enzed, steel of the sort you are after can be got from Bohler Udderholm or Eagle & Globe. I'm not sure where they are in the SI as its been many years since I was down there but both were in Auckland.
In many instances the making of a piece wether it be in metal or wood (or anything else) that requires precision in the making will be a joy to some of us & a pain in the fundamental to others. Enjoy it while you can & rember my wife's favourite saying to ward off cognitive dissonance - look how much I saved by ...............(fill in what ever you want; they do.) I just agree coz I'm usually a hell of a lot guiltier.
Enjoy the week-end
Don
Edited 10/21/2005 12:36 am ET by dondownunder
Michael, I am wandering whether you do not know how to make a plane , or if you know how to not make a plane :)(:
Judging by the world wide proliferation of both makers of "better" planes and users of them, it seems that insanity is a popular state these days: certainly I am insane and deteriorating fast.In fact the outbreak has reached epidemic proportions and the various antidotes are now in short supply, hence the outrageous prescription costs.
However, I have committed myself before being committed, as it were, to a quick cure that is home made and therefore a lot less expensive. More importantly, since I am both designer(copier) maker and user, I am confidant of superior performance where it counts, and not merely fancy appearance.
To this end I have started with flat ground stock rather than an "extruded U", as in reality steel is not normally extruded -only aluminium is.I do not envisage a problem therefore regarding flatness, squareness or parallelism, especially as once the body has been assembled by a thorough beating from me rather than an apprentice, I will use my milling machine to mill all over , using the sole as reference. The same method less the beatings will ensure that the bed is flat and properly aligned with the sole.I may use the neighbours surface grinder, depending upon my state of health.
I look forward to using the plane, in my madness, satisfied that I have made something useful.
And I have practised my typing.
Philip Marcou
I wasn't clear in my prior post. I think PAYING $4,500 US for a plane is insane. Spending your own time making a thing of beauty for yourself is paradise.
Philip, as for extruding steel it is a common industrial practice to make parts. It is quite commonly used for firearms parts, the Italians are very good at it. It works best for parts with profiles on one plane and flat on another.
Someone further down mentioned belt sanders, a 1X42 belt sander is an amazing machine but the cheap ones are worthless (not something I say often) you need a good one to get the most out of it. One of the neat things you can do is to loop the belt THROUGH a hole and that allows you to sand something like oh, a plane mouth?
Another useful trick would be to make up some round metal holder for files and put them into the drill chuck (belt disconnected. Then you could use the drill as a filing machine with the table at an angle.
If you guys are going to be making small knurled parts you are going to need a lathe. Another thing you can do on a lathe is use it as a shaper, which would be a usefule tool to broach the plane mouths.
I can see it now, a plane body with beautiful case hardening instead of Japanning, fire blued steel parts, a small amount of tasteful engraving, and Bastogne walnut infil....hmmm.
The reason I think the prices are insane is I know what high end custom guns go for and a lot of very expensive materials go into them, whearas planes for the most part, the bits are simply turned/cast brass and steel, the expense is all labor.
Imagine what the guys who made this could make?
Fascinating. The telecopic sight seems incongruous with the rest of it-I would hide it until required for a special job. Is it a 303 or 375?
Do you do work to that standard Michael?Philip Marcou
Philip,
Custom guns at that level are made by specialists. One does the engraving, another the metal work, a stockmaker does the stock and sometimes even the checkering is farmed out, and then a metal finisher does the finish. As for the scope, I agree, wrecks the asthetics of the whole thing!
I make gunstocks but am nowhere near that level. I have done some nice work but only aspire to that level. I also do some metalwork and you guys have got me hooked on doing some planes.
As for my work, I make reproduction stocks for vintage military weapons so I don't often do fancy work. I have made a few custom items though.
My website is down so I can't link to anything but here is something I made a while back.
Thanks Michael-I was ignorant of the steel extrusions-I wander if there are sections suitable for planes.
Could you elaborate on using the shaper method in the lathe to cut/refine the mouth, e.g what shape would the tool be. I assume the sole would be held in the chuck and the cross table would be traversed back and forth? My Emco does not have a spindle lock device.
I am thinking of vertically mounting the sole onto an angle plate attached to the lathe sadle , and using the small mill which is in the bed middle , fitted with a 60* dovetail cutter, the head being set at 15* (the plane bed angle).
Japanning-not for me. If things go according to plan, I think nickel plating is in order. Or may just have the inside body blued.
Any suggestions for attaching the brass bed to the sole-the dimensions of this are aprox 105mmx 50mm wedge shaped, zero to aprox 22mm ? I like silver solder but don't have the means.Screw from under?
Fire arms and knives-same sickness, not to mention fine watches. I am very unwell.Philip Marcou
Philip,
Your setup sounds perfect for doing it on your machinery.
As for planing on the lathe, you grind cutters to the right angle and then, as you thought, use the cross slide to run the cutter over the part, shaving off metal. People do it all the time to cut keyway slots using a lathe.
Well, I like nice planes and nice guns. I wouldn't pay the prices that some will for either, but I sure do like to look at them. One moa is about my best skill level, no matter how good the rifle, and that is on the bench, and not in the woods.
I like that Ruger Red Label just because it has no scroll work or other embellishments.
I think most Lie Nielson's are a bit rich for my blood, but I sure do admire a guy, who can go out into the market place, and make himself a good living by coming up with such a quality product, that none of us used to know that we really needed it.
I also like Shaker or good early Federal styles in furniture, but I sure do admire those who do some of those more extravagant things.
'By the way - my dumb question of the week - why not just braze/weld the sides on? Why did the Victorian plane makers use dovetails, and not 'weld'?'
As far as I know, (and I wish my old Dad was still here, because he WOULD know) the only way that the Victorians managed to weld was using a forge and hammer. Probably not a good spec for planes.
I am really enjoying this discussion - am I ever glad I signed up to Knots!
Take care, and stay in touch,
Ozzy
<why not just braze/weld the sides on? Why did the Victorian plane makers use dovetails, and not 'weld'?>If I may butt in, welding changes the steel unpredictably distorting pieces. aloha, mike
Victorian weld.. Yes a blacksmith!
Philip,
For the level of machining and forming that is required to build an infill plane you should not be able to discern any difference between annealed O-1 tool steel and regular 1018 mild steel. I have attached a photo of a plane that I made using O-1 for the bottom and it cut and formed as easily as others where I used mild steel.
Good luck with your plane. They are joy to build and even more fun to use.
Tom
Thanks Tom. Seeing the brass on yours makes me wish I had used brass on my sides. Any way, it is coming on quite nicely: I am too impatient to actually practise those dovetails, but they are together nicely, but I have not filed the 'flair'-I am still wandering if I should mill it or file it. In the mean time there is the huge problem of how to cut the mouth without a sweat- it will be a bevel up smoother, so there is a mean angle to consider. I will machine the bed and the adjust mechanism while pondering that one.Philip Marcou
how to cut the mouth without a sweat
Philip - with my weekend experiment, I'm going to seperate the 2 pieces of the sole, shape the bevel on the mouth, and dovetail the two pieces into the sides seperately. I know this potentially introduces alignment errors, but that's how I made my wooden planes. I reckon if I can get the four pieces lined up accurately on the peining buck, any mis-alignment will be small enough to be filed/lapped out.
One reason for this approach is that like you, I'm making a bevel-up low angle plane, and there's a lot of shaping of the mouth to be done. Also the sides are quite thin.
We'll see.
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Malcolm, I don't want to cut the sole in two, and I have laid out the dovetails to accommodate the mouth without doing that.I can do it on my milling machine ,but don't have a suitable cutter.I want the mouth to continue in the same plane(!) as the bed. Also I am allergic to filing. I will consult with an old chap here who can make anything....Ofcourse the easiest thing to do would be to take it to a machinist shop-but there is the risk of a buggarup then :)Philip Marcou
That is just pure gorgeous. Did you pein those dovetails to fit, or build in an interference press fit?
Or someother method, beyond my imagination?
Tom,
How did you get the double dovetail together.
HM
Only similar experience I've had was trying to cut 1" galvanized pipe using a circular saw with a cut-off wheel. What a mess! No, I didn't like the sparks, but even less did I like the poor cut the wheel made. Got the rest of 'em cut at HD by the sweet guy with the Rigid pipe-cutter.
Someday I might get my step-son to teach me how to weld, probably would be a good excuse then to get an angle grinder.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I'm going to put up a photo of my cut-down plane iron (and the scraps I cut off) this weekend to show how good a small angle grinder and a 1mm cutoff wheel can perform.
I'm not an expert, but have been really impressed about this. Like I said: fast, cool, close to the line.
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Oh and another thing...
For those suddenly discovering the joys of a sidewheel grinder, they make adapter to use the handheld grinder in a fixture so it becomes a metal "chop saw" which helps with those 90 deg cuts and the later clean up.
Listen , Michael, go easy on Malcolm, he lives in New Zealand, on the south island , fairly close to the South Pole.
You are correct about using a pin(centre) punch- I have modified one for the job, but made it only 4mm diameter-that was before I rose to your bait.Philip Marcou
Here's the cut-down iron with off-cuts.http://www.macpherson.co.nz
Malcolm,
Nicely ground bevels on the sides - mine are still very untidy
Dave
Wow, looks good! I might have to get me one of them things.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
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