Having finished making a woodworking bench, to support my foray into the world of handtools, I am now at the stage of adding the last little refinements to it. The question of a lining (if any) for the faces of the vises has arisen.
The bench face and end vises are both Veritas twin screw of 24 inch length. The jaws are 9/4 thick, 8 inches deep and made of hard maple.
In various bench-related books and websites I have read differing advice about lining the vise jaw faces – leather, cork, softwood and nothing seem to be the main options. However, there is little information about what advantages (and disadvantages) are associated with each.
Before cutting up the ladywife’s old thigh boots, I would like Knots members’ experience and opinions about the advisability of lining vise jaws, the options and issues involved.
Thanks in anticipation.
Lataxe
PS I was a bit disappointed to see that the FWW Tools & Shops issue found their test example of a Veritas bench had a problematic twin screw vice. I must say I love the things, as mine work very smoothly, even when wound out and back to/from a maximum gap with the single handle.
Replies
I lined mine with nothing - the jaws are maple. I've also got a metal jawed vice which I keep meaning to line. Probably with hardboard, rough side exposed.
I also picked up on that piece on the Veritas vice i the bench review. Mine's fine, but the end caps keep falling off the handles. I reckon in a couple of years I'll have them held on with 6mm x 100mm screws.
Lataxe
Does that twin screw vise for Veritas rack at all? I've got one of the old style one's, and it racks rediculously. I've got little T-shaped inserts in all the different thicknesses to slide in one side to prevent racking, but I'm constantly looking for them under the bench. Royal pain!
With maple jaws, you shouldn't have to line the jaws at all. Just be careful not to crush less dense woods like cherry or walnut. Cork works well, and can be spray/glued on.
Jeff
Afternoon Lataxe...
On wooden jaws as yours, I used to flute them horizontally with the tip of a flute bit top of jaw to top of screw and leave them un-finished for further traction. I concluded that is a lot of trouble and not necessary as long as adequate pressure but not over-due crushing pressure is applied. But.. just in case I now line them with self-backed green felt you can buy at the Box stores or fabric shops.
On metal jaws I use leather...
BTW.. I have the Veritas Twin Screw on the end of my current bench and have absolutely no problem with racking. If the gears are in sync, I see no reason you should. There might be the slightest rack on the outside end when over-clamped, but nothing I would consider a significant threat to what I'm doing.
And yes... the caps fall off that Veritas Twin Screw as most wooden handle vice handles. The pain in the *ss goes away when you allot about 5 minutes to drilling 2 pilot holes and adding the two sheet metal screws and mentioned. ha.. ha...
Regards...
SARGE..
Thaks all for the advise (!) so far.
I confess to tending to the "nothing" option at present, partly due to laziness and partly to worries about leather or whatever picking up and transfering dirt, oil or grit. On the other hand, many older benches seemed to have their vise jaws lined and it does make one wonder what the old fellahs knew.
As to any Veritas twin screw vise racking - mine display none. In fact, the jaws (which I made very certain are dead flat) seem to meet everywhere at once, with no gap showing on the top, bottom or side edges. I merely followed the comprehensive instructions to the letter and there have been no problems at all.
One thing I haven't done (yet) is to plane the outer jaw's inner face to reduce the bottom thickness (compared to the top) by 3/16ths, as recommded by Veritas "to ensure the jaws meet at the top edge first". Having gripped a number of items (including some fairly hefty and some very small) there has been no significant "top to bottom" racking either.
Perhaps vertical racking develops over time, as wear occurs? What are your experiences on this? Creating this deliberate "bottom gap"seems almost to defeat the purpose of the vise, especially if you want to grip a long thing using the (outside the screw) vertical edgesof the jaw.
The whole design of the vise otherwise seems (like many Veritas designs) to be well thought out and engineering-based. It's another one of those good tools that begins to "disappear" as you get familiar with its use. You gradually take it for granted, as it always works properly and just like you expect.
I look forward to the first time I need to grip something with an uneven thickness, to see how much the disengagement of the chain drive will allow deliberate racking.
Incidentally, you might be interested to know that the end caps now come with screws and the caps/handle-ends pre-drilled to take them. Mr Lee must have been listening to you.
Still can't decide on a lining; although cork would be any easy option as I have plenty old tablemats that are of a very even thickness of around 1/8th inch. That seems as if it would be an ideal compromise between squishabilty and gripability....? I also have plenty of that sticky-backed felt used to line box bottoms. It won't hurt to try either or both, I suppose.
Lataxe
My vises have hard maple faces covered with 1/4" hardboard. The hardboard is attached with double faced carpet tape so they can be easily replaced.Hard material will not damage wood in a vise. There are so many square inches of vise face that the PSI is small. That's the reason vise faces have been made the way they are.Howie.........
Howie,
I did consider using doubleface sticky tape as I have a roll for sticking templates to pieces for routing to shape using a straight bit et al. However, the tape I have seems to dry up after a couple of months - going by its tendency to shed the sandpaper I stick on the woodrat jaws to improve their grip.
The magnets sound a better option as they stay strong and are also easier to unstick and put back than double sided tape. (The tape seems to unstick when you want it to stay put but be devilish hard to disengage when you're in a hurry to stick your template on the next piece - version 56c of Murphy's Law I suspect).
Your point about the large jaw area reducing the pounds/sq inch on the worpiece is well taken. I will make the false faces for the vise jaws the same area as the jaws themselves, sans slots so they can drop over the vise screws.
Thanks for the advice.
Lataxe
>> However, the tape I have seems to dry up after a couple of monthsThat's strange. I just removed some sandpaper that I had on my miter gauge. It was at least ten years old and was really stuck on. I changed the vise faces a couple of years ago and really had to work to get off the masonite. It even tore off some the the masonite surface.Are you using the cloth or fiberglass tape? That's the most agressive and very long lasting. It's waterproof too. The stuff I'm using now I bought at Home Depot.Howie.........
Howie,
It sound like you have proper carpet tape, with a substrate within the sticky stuff. I have a mere "double-sided tape" that is basicaly a layer of pliant contact cement between two smooth-faced strips of paper.
This tape of mine is perfect for mounting templates to workpieces for routing, as it need only stick for the time it takes to complete the job. It is also very thin. Even so, it can be a bugger to dismount. Perhaps I'll try a bit of that tougher stuff you use for more permanent sticking tasks, such as the Woodrat vise jaws and their sandpaper.
However, rare earth magnets stick unbelievably well and (with Philip's added suggestion of a couple of end-bits to keep the false faces located) I will go that route, for now. They sound easier to remove than either variety of sticky tape.
I still also want to try leather rather than a softer wood, hardboard or other alternative, as this is both traditional and arcane - an attractive combination to those of us who are trying out a new WW catechism. :-)
Lataxe
Lat, I'm not familiar with that vice, but subscribe to the line of thinking that having interchangeable "liners" is a useful thing, especially if no hassle to change them. A cunning mind such as yours will no doubt devise a simple system for attaching the false jaws.
You just never know- you may decide to grip the lawn mower in there, and some marks will be made, not to mention oil, which are then sure to be transferred to the work. So I would make up a few sets of jaws just in case, and these could be lined with materials to suit such as cork, leather etc allowing you to match virgin with virgin so to speak.Philip Marcou
Edited 12/3/2006 3:51 am by philip
Latexe,DON'T use glue. Instead, make 'drop in' liners
They can be made of thin plywood and glued up like a section of angle iron . Add side 'wings' if you like.
Another scheme, is to make a set using 1/2" hardwood and routing parallel 'V' grooves, both horizontally and vertically
( To hold round stock) Steinmetz.
Edited 12/2/2006 9:23 pm ET by Steinmetz
Lataxe,
I have a 25 yr old 12" Craftsman vise on my bench which I lined "el cheapo" several years ago for the occassions I need to clamp something (such as repairing furniture) which already has a finish on it. I cut out a pair of drop-in liners same size as vise jaws from 1/4" plywood. To these, I glued, with spray on adhesive, some drawer liner material which I got from the kitchen section of Home Depot. I cut the plywood about an inch wider than the vise jaws and bandsawed out a shallow "tunnel" from the bottom edge for the rods and screw to ride through; it helps keep the liners from shifting out of place. Gary
I use curly maple for my shoulder vise jaws, and the same with a replaceable masonite pad on my end vise. I use the curly maple instead of hard maple because i want a softer wood as a pad, and I like the look.
The next time I line the vises, I might try a very soft wood, like Obeche. But so far I have no need to replace the pads!
All,
I knew I'd get the answer here. :-)
Putting all the answers together, it would seem that the most versatile approach will be to make sets of demountable vise faces out of ply or similar and glue on to them various materials or even profiles for various purposes. The vise might be used faceless for most work but have the special "lawnmower", "round piece" or" french polish" jaws put in for those special jobs.
This is what I'll do.
As the vice faces are plenty thick, would you think that the best mounting/demounting technique would be something like flathead bolts....or is it better to have some form of loose mounting for these facings?
I'm struggling to visualise a method of fastner-less mounting that won't require machining the vise face itself in some way, eg with a sliding dovetail or similar, which might interfere with faceless use of the vise.......?
Perhaps the faces could just hang loosely over the vise screws/screw guards, as they would self-align when the vise is tightened on any work piece?
Thanks all for the wisdom.
Lataxe
Desertmaster gave the best approach. I was thinking about contact cementing coarse belt sander cloth to the back sides of the 'drop-in' inserts (to resist shifting) Also, to insure against loss, or mis placement, mark with bright red magic marker Steinmetz
Lat- mount them demountables with magnets, the round ones....Philip Marcou
I have two sets of slide on liners, Maple and Red Cedar. But they're a pain to change. I drilled 3 holes in each liner, One for the lead screw and two for the guides. Unscrew and remove the front end then slip on the liners onto the lead screw and guide and reinstall the whole mess.
But the Post on recessed magnets has me intrigued, going to look into that idea.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Bruce & Philip,
As ever, The Excellent Engineer comes up with an elegant answer. I just happen to have a few of them Lee Valley rare earth magnets tucked in a drawer somewhere......
I'm away to the shed!
Lataxe
Lataxe--
Since no one has really chimed in in-depth on leather, I thought I'd give it a vote. Leather is a traditional lining for jaw faces-- for good reasons. I've faced my various wooden jaws for many years with this material. It's simple to apply, simple to maintain, and simple to re-apply when necessary. Better yet, it has the right blend of good grip and cushioning, allowing you to hold your work securely without marring it.
Use a top-grain leather that's finished on one side. The leather must be the right thickness: too thin, and it won't cushion the work; too thick, and it won't be supple enough to grip well. A thickness of around 3/32 in. is about right. Fabric stores usually have bolts of leather for sale, and often have scraps that are plenty big enough for jaw liners. Your wife's shoes may work, but I would avoid any deep creases or stitching, or leather that's become work-hardened through use.
Be sure to face both sides of the vise. Cut each piece about 1/4 in. oversize with scissors or a mat knife. Make any necessary holes with a metal punch (or with the sharpened end of a iron or brass tube), or simply cut slits in the leather so you can fit it around vise rods and other projecting hardware.
Dampen the sueded (unfinished) side with clean water, just enough to moisten the fibers. Roll it up and wait 10-15 min. for the fibers to soften. Once the leather is pliable, spread white or yellow (woodworking) glue on the wetted surface with a roller or similar tool, applying an even, thin coat. If you're doing two opposing jaws at once, which is the simplest approach, just close the vise securely with the pieces of leather in place. Otherwise, use a thick block of wood and clamps to apply even pressure while the glue sets. The wetting procedure is important: It keeps the leather supple even after the glue has dried.
Once the glue is dry, trim the lining flush to the jaw with a razor knife or a super-sharp paring chisel.
Before use, give the leather a good waxing with paste wax, rubbing it into the pores generously and then buffing away all excess. This will retard oils and other finishes from building up, and resists glue spills.
Re-apply the wax whenever the leather looks dry. Over time, the leather will gain a rich patina and a harder-wearing surface. When it gets too worn for effective use, which can take years, heat the leather with a heat gun or a hair dryer, peel it off, clean up the jaw surface, and re-apply a fresh piece.
I encourage you to try leather. It has a grip and feel unlike any other material. It's more protective than hardboard or other dense lining materials, and it lasts much longer and provides superior grip compared to other cushioning materials such as cork or felt.
Good luck!
Andy Rae
PS-- One more tip. I typically dry-clamp both liners in place first to check the position of my vise handle. The aim is to have the handle in a desirable position when the jaws are clamped shut, such as horizontal or perpendicular to the floor, depending on your vise and your preference. Remove one of the jaws and plane it down in thickness until the handle rests where you want it with the vise clamped tight. This way, when you're done for the day, you can close the vise and have the handle in a position that won't interfere with such things like your hips or other moving objects.
Andy,
Ah ha! I knew there must be a reason for all them old leather-covered vise jaws and here you have made all plain. I shall take your advice - although it will be leather-clad "false" faces for me I think.
This should not only make it easier to mount the leather but also allow other vise faces to be substituted for other purpose - perhaps not for holding a lawnmower, a la Marcou; but a set for holding the various bends and curves of my chair bits would be useful; and obviate the need to fetch out the shaving horse. (There is limited space in my shed).
Also, use of false faces will allow that handle alignment you mention to be made without having to dismantle and reduce the thickness of the jaws themselves. But perhaps you mean, anyway, that the leather should be applied to such false faces, rather than direct to the vise jaws themselves?
One other question, hoping you have the time to answer:
The vice jaws are deep at round 8 inches but would it be sufficient to line only the top half or even third with the leather? In theory this would (I think) provide a better grip with less force; and also avoid that top-to-bottom racking that LeeValley advise one avoid by making the outer jaw narrower at the bottom than at the top....?
I am presuming that the only reason for having the deep jaws is that they need that depth to allow room for mounting the vise screws et al - not to provide a huge gripping area.
Lataxe, a grateful vise novice
Lataxe,
This top -to bottom racking thing, my understanding is that there is a deliberate setup for some vices that includes this characteristic. The top of the jaw closes first so that when you tighten the vice the bottom pulls up. Apparently the purpose is a secure hold on small material that doesnt reach right through the jaw depth.
My current set of jaw liners is too beat up to measure this, but there is a good paragraph or two in the Landis bench book on setting up record vices. This probably apies to similar types.
Dave
Lataxe—I was referring to applying the leather directly on the jaws. However, your (screw in? drop on? clip in? some type of tool-less application?) faces should work fine, too. And like you said, you can more easily regulate their thickness to regulate the handle orientation. As far as getting a good fit between both jaws, it’s an old trick to create a slightly bigger gap, or taper, at the bottom of a traditional edge vise, and the Lee Valley vise is following tradition. But the gap, or taper, is usually very slight—about 1/32 in. depending on the vise. It’s a subtle amount because the idea is to have the entire vise grip top to bottom when the jaws are closed, with a smidgeon more pressure along the top. If the taper is too big, you don’t get good grip at the bottom.My approach would be to leather-line the entire depth of the jaws, adding the necessary taper to the jaw that's most easily tapered beforehand. (One way to taper a jaw is to pass it through the thickness planer on a smooth plywood bed with a 1/32 in. or equivalent strip of wood tacked under and along one side of the jaw.) Still, you could try the one-half or one-third approach without committing: Just close the clamp on a tall scrap piece with the half liners in place dry to see if the entire jaw grips. If it doesn’t grip solidly top and bottom, I’d find another way.—Andy
Andy,
Thanks for the supplementary advice. I've begun to play with false faces, using rare earth magnets set into the vise faces to hold against washers countersunk and glued into the back of the false faces. Mr Marcou came up with that one.
The ladywife is seeking good leather from arcane fabric retailers she knows of.
Meanwhile I will take off that 1/32nd via the thickneser and some veneer to cant the vise jaw up a bit on its bottom edge - when I have turned the 1/32nd into a proper metric measure that my vernier understands. :-)
Lataxe
"Meanwhile I will take off that 1/32nd via the thickneser and some veneer to cant the vise jaw up a bit on its bottom edge - when I have turned the 1/32nd into a proper metric measure that my vernier understands." :-)
1)'Ere, that is a preposterous plan of action- by the time you have moved to the thicknesser, set it, pressed the green and stood back wandering if the canted board is to be eaten up, you could have used yer Old Record #51/2 to do the job exactly....
2)Re the demountable jaws- it may be useful to screw on a couple of metal locating tabs on the sides to bear against the vice, just to prevent creep that can occur when panic is setting in. One of the refinements that aid a stress-free workshop.
3)I am suitably flattered to be referred to as "The Excellent Engineer", but it may be easier to just say "Your Excellency" in the interests of brevity.Philip Marcou
I have lined all of my vises with straight grained birch, and as large as the vises will accomodate. They give me ample purchase and are very accomodating because of the softnesss of the birch relative to the typical woods that I work with, i.e. cherry, maple, oak. and have caused no problems relative to marring surfaces.
I suspect that because of the relative softness of the birch with regard to the material being clamped, it grips the wood quite well without the need for any other modifications to their surface.
If its a delicate piece, then obviously how much pressure to apply becomes the isssue more so than the material used to cover the vise faces, I think. I would be inclined to think that a vise jaw should be lined with a material that is slightly softer than the material with which I wish to clamp.
Just my thoughts,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
Use whatever tool needed to Git 'r Done!
>> the softnesss of the birch relative to the typical woods that I work with, i.e. cherry, maple, oak.Birch is not a soft wood. It is very close to maple and oak. Cherry is much softer than any of the three.You can see a chart of wood hardness at: http://www.woodfloorsonline.com/techtalk/hardns.htmlHowie.........
Howard,
Thanks for pointing that out to me. I checked the Janka hardness scale, as you said, and Yellow Birch is slightly lower - less than 200 pts. from Hard Maple and a little more than 300 pts. harder than cherry. I'll certainly keep that in mind when I begin my next project, a Cherry entertainment center.
My vise jaws, as I said b4, are lined with birch; the faces are still rough cut, I never planed them. Perhaps the extra fibres left on the rough surfaces has provided a cushion over the years that I hadn't realized...........
Thanks for your help,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
Use whatever tool needed to Git 'r Done!
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