I’ve been meaning to sign up for the forum an post a safety issue that occurred in Tucson last month. If I’m repeating a previously reported issue I’m sorry. A remodeler was killed while installing a wood floor over a sunken living room last month on the northwest side of Tucson. The windows and doors were all open for ventilation and he was still blown out of the house when a spark from a Stanley nail gun ignited Liquid Nails adhesive fumes that had settled in the floor cavity. I guess the oak flooring was splintered like toothpicks.
He was married with a little kid with her own health problems. According to the newspaper was the guy in the neighborhood who could fix or advise you on how to do any construction project.
Of course as an underpaid one man shop he had no insurance. This country needs a national health insurance program and I guess regardless of what Tom Delay thinks we really do need to be able to sue manufacturers when there products kill us!
Replies
How, exactly, would a national health insurance program have prevented this man's death? GP
I was told that due to his daughters' heart condition he was working 60-70 hours a week to help with the medical bills. Those kind of hours can cause problems although I think in this case it was a failure of the companies to share information with the public about the extreme dangers associated with Liquid Nails under these circumstances.
You do make a good point that my health care complaints are a side issue,but lack of coverage effects many uninsured,overworked,underpaid yet very skilled craftsmen.
while tragic a tragic accident it was, it was an accident. The notion that some person cant figure out that highly flammable objects are prone to explosion reminds me of the dumb broad who put hot coffee between her legs and was shocked to learn that hot coffee burns.
I guess even VOC labels arent read, warning labels ignored i guess by not following the labels makes the manufacturere liable. If he was indeed shot up 10ft into the air, id have to say no adequate ventilation was in place. Id also wonder how he was storing the adhesive that wasnt being used.
Sounds like the blame was probably on him. The article has little true information other then the usual negative slant on big business. But i guess we all pay now since insurance premiums go up.
"gee St Peter i didnt know gasoline would explode when i threw a match in that barrel, i only thought it would catch on fire" Proof Darwinism wasnt only meant for the galapogos islands....
Here is a link to the article. Russell Behrman was a 37 year old flooring carpenter and an independent contractor. He is, in fact, suing the manufacturer of the gun and the glue as suggested:
http://www.azstarnet.com/star/wed/30611EXPLOSIONLAWSUIT.html
I have mixed feelings about the issue, politically and legally.
It should be noted that the Liquid Nails product did have a warning that stated it was "highly flammable"
It should also be noted that he carried no life insurance nor health insurance and yes, his daughter had a heart issue.
Politically, there are a lot of people like Russell Behrman, who are independent contractors, don't carry life insurance, health insurance, car insurance, nor have any savings. I have no easy answers, but I can tell you that I carry life insurance and health insurance. It is as important as gasolene. If I couldn't afford it, I'd work for a salary for a company that provided it. My wife and I did not marry until latter, nor did we have children right away, because we couldn't afford it.
It seems to me that people are making bad choices as to financial decisions and want the government to help them out.
I am not sure that government belongs in the health care business. They make really good roads and armies, but sometimes don't do a very good job at managing health care issues. A national health insurance bill will cost us all. It was tried once in the mid 90's and as a trial balloon was a political disaster. If the will of the people is to pay for Russell Behrman's insurance needs (life, health, etc) then so be it.
But right now, these are choices that he made, and his widow and orphan daughter are paying the price. This article should be a wake up call to all independent contractors to get health and life insurance for the sake of your family.
Legally, I have some problems with the lawsuit as well. While I don't have a tube of the stuff handy, I take the word of his lawyer that the tube was marked "highly flammable", use with adequate ventilation, or something like that. Maybe it wasn't in one inch type, and colored red, but it was marked. Is Russell Behrman absolved from all liability because he doesn't read the the stuff. You can't say he was inexperienced.
On the other hand, does merely placing that warning allow the manufacturer off the hook?
I'll pull a tube out of the shop this evening and make my own conclusions. But this is also a wake up call to all flooring contractors that "highly flammable" means just that, and one might need to invest in a $20 exhaust fan when installing subfloors.
This was an interesting post, Jerry. Thanks for bringing to our attention.
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
A very tragic situation. Made more tragic in that his widow (or some attorney) is trying to shift the blame (IMHO).
This is indeed a tragedy. An even larger tragedy is that the attorney for the family will receive at least a third of whatever the award if found in favor of the plaintiff. The billable hours for the defendant's attorney will be paid by the tool makers, no matter what happens in the case.
I realize this is one of the prices paid for living in a free society, for which I'm sincerely grateful. I also think Shakespeare may have had it right.
Kell
If any of you guys would have anticipated that a wood floor would blow up like a hand grenade was thrown under it when you had the windows and doors wide open with a fan on......well you are better men than me.
The bottom line is we need to have a safety net for all the people who are not as smart, as lucky,as well born or as hard working as we are. I think a single payer system could be combined with tort reform.Western Europe has made a single payer system work. This lets them ease up on product liability issues.The reason most Americans aren't aware of that fact could be because most Americans are undereducated or it could be the health care industry gives the networks buckets of advertising money , or it could be that it is really hard to discuss in a one minute segment so it isn't discussed at all.
I would love to not have to mess with health insurance issues at my shop. I guess I might have to move to Maine.
Maybe it wasn't liquid nail in the gun. Maybe George Bush put Colored C-4 in the tube.
and just what was this "Mr. Behrman" (if that is his real name) really trying to cover up with that "flooring"?
m
(we shouldn't make jokes- the poor sob was killed just trying to lay a floor)
This is a case that will have highly charged emotions on the side of the Plainitff and a very sympathetic group of people, like a widow and an orphan.
The manufacturers correctly labled the stuff, yet did they do enough?
The poor guy was probably blown up by his own errors, so there is some comparative negligence.
They'll give the poor widow and orphan a million dollars; the lawyer will make $300K. Maybe it will last a couple years for the girl and her mom. They'd have their Dad if he only exercised some common sense.
What I don't understand is how this could go undetected. That stuff smells, and smells really bad. To have so much of the accumulate that it becomes explosive, and then one does not choke on the fumes let alone even notice it, befuddles me. I would have thought he would have gagged on it.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Thanks for posting the warning. I used Liquid nails putting up a towel rack a couple weeks ago and dang that stuff puts off some aweful nasty fumes. I didn't read the label and had no clue that it was that volatile. I usually read the directions when something doesn't work .. I need to change that.
You know, I'd bet the Manufacturer being sued has some perty expensive product liability insurance.
-Ken
There's two key points to this disaster. The flammable vapors were, like most petroleum derrivative vapors, heavier than air (HTA). Secondly you have the sunken living room which allowed the vapors to accumulate until they reached the LEL (Lower Explosive Limit). From there it only takes a spark. A fan placed in the sump before the vapors had a chance to build would have made the difference. A fan introduced after the vapors built-up may have been just the spark needed to ignite the vapor. The only reason I know this is from years of electrical design experience in refineries and the like.
There is no easy fix for this except to take all such products off the market and become a water borne society. A label couldn't possibly educate every consumer about every possible scenario and you can't make anybody read it. Codes cannot address it either. Inconsistencies abound. Look no farther than any garage that has a gas water heater and the laundry. The water heater will be 18" off the floor because gasoline vapors are HTA and it's an ignition source. Right next to it you will have a dryer and a washing machine well below 18" afl. The motors and relays are arc producing as is the gas burner or electric element in the dryer. The starter motor in the car is arc producing as well. Where do you draw the line? Try to start a V* with a hand crank. Fact is #### happens and people die. Dragging the government into it won't work either. Remember the guy who was mountaineering by himself and had to cut his own arm off? If the government were to protect stupid people from themselves the would have to close the wilderness. The guy who started this thread and tried to capitalize on this tragedy to make a pitch for national healthcare should be ashamed.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
well put.
m
Your experience working in a heavy industry(which are now almost gone in america) should make it clear that Liquid Nails should have known this exposion was a real possibility when installing over a cavity.They needed to include this information on the warning.I admit bringing up the need for nation health insurance was a side issue(the victim was working huge amounts of extra work because his daughters heart surgery wasn't covered by insurance" But this ignorant "***** happens and people die" (your words) shows a lack of class on your part. The man is dead and you basically call him an idiot. I hope none of his family ever reads your comments.I'm sure you don't really mean them.
You quote famous draft dodger John Wayne in your closing. He filed more than his share of lawsuits in his time.My main point is if you had a single payer system that would guarantee care for people injured by border line faulty products a consistant national health progam might cut down on the need for over the top legal judgements.
Jerry, before advocate something, buy a can of the stuff and read the warning label. I did, and it mentions this exact problem and tells the user to use adequate ventilation, and warns that the fumes will sink and spread and not to use anything which might spark. Oh yeah, this guy didn't read the label. So any more explicit warning that Liquid Nails might have given "Hey you moron, don't use this stuff where fumes don't have a chance to collect and don't use around anything that sparks (attach six page list) wouldn't have made a difference.
My daddy had an expression for this situation. You can't fix stupid.
I feel for his wife and kids. But this is not LN's problem.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Good point Boris but speaking from experience ( I bet I've bought a thousand tubes and tubs of Liquid nails over the years ) try using it in a way they say it must be used and you will find the product is worthless. Are we supposed to use the powers of our minds to drive nails? Sparks happen in the real world. Maybe it would help if the company would include a pictoral display of the results of of Liquid Nails exposions with each tube. Educating the end user about the safe use of the product should be the main purpose of safety warnings, not a bunch of legaleese just to cover their ####.
I don't know about you, but on almost every job site, I have three essential tools that get taken in before I start: My radio (gotta have my tunes); A Halogen work light (never enough light); and A box fan (we sweat a lot). I will have 2-3 box fans if we are painting,staining or stripping.
Liquid nails is something I have used, and will continue to use, and will do with a pneumatic driver---but---and this is a big but---use adequate ventilation. I can't stand the stuff as it f u c k s with my alergies, so I break out the 2-3 fans when using it.
Reading the label and following the direction is against everything that men are supposed to do. But for most construction products, I find that if you install it right, you will have warranty rights against the manufacuter if it fails; and the product will perform better if installed to their specs.
If one choses to ignore the directions, then you take your life into your own hands. Maybe this unfortunate accident should teach all of us to read and follow the directions on the label of the products we install. May God Bless You.......
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Why should the fact that someone didn't read the label and paid no attention to safety allow the manufacturer off the hook? After all, shouldn't all manufacturers be forced to take responsibility for any possible misuse of their products by anyone anywhere at any time in any way?<sarcasm intended>
Good heavens, next thing someone's family will sue because they drowned in a bowl of milk, and they had four kids and a mortgage.
Accidents happen. Sometimes because people aren't as careful as they should have been. The fact that this guy had a wife and daughter has NOTHING to do with anything. If he was single, would it mean Liquid Nails wasn't at fault? You need to separate the facts that are germaine to the emotional bs. The legal recourse is for when a manufacturer should have forseen a certain event happening, not for something they warned about and wasn't heeded.
I do agree with you guys that one ignors manufacturers warnings at ones own risk; but from cigarettes to asbestos many times manufacturers lie to cover their own asses. If I make Silly Puddy and know that it will kill 30 kids a year when put in a Easy Bake oven I can either specifically warn the end users of this danger and lose a percentage of my sales or I can put a vague warning on the package and pay small settlements to the families who are forced to sign confidentiallity agreements. The bottom line isn't the only important line in this world.
On the health insurance thing I do admit it was a bit off topic. The high premiums I pay hurts my businesses bottom line.I end up farming out work rather than hiring additional help.Something needs to be done to provide workers benefits they can actually use. I would be buying way more Laguna Tools equipment and far less Harbor Freight crap if I had more health insurance premiums in my pocket.
Jerry K.
12601.26 in reply to 12601.25
"The high premiums I pay hurts my businesses bottom line.I end up farming out work rather than hiring additional help.Something needs to be done to provide workers benefits they can actually use. I would be buying way more Laguna Tools equipment and far less Harbor Freight crap if I had more health insurance premiums in my pocket."
Here's the problem with a single payer system - especially one funded by the "government." Instead of paying a premium to a private health care company, you will be paying an added payroll deduction to fund this "free" health care. All your doing is shifting the cost to a different place.
The idea that it would be cheaper is dubious at best. Name ONE thing the government can do with less cost than private industry. Once you have federal workers involved, you have an entire buracracy to support in addition to the personnel needed actually execute the service.
This includes: day care centers, "wellness centers," credit unions, etc. that are all part of the federal employee welfare system - to meet union requirements.
Dream on brother if you think big brother is going to do a better job at a lower cost...
The Top Ten Things That Big Brother Does Better and Cheaper Than Private Industry:
1. Roads
2. Armies
3. Court System
4. Police
5. Garbage Collectors
6. Mail Service
7. Utilities
8. Prisons
9. Public Transportation
10. And yes, Schools. Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
It works for the Canadians and most of Europe. The downside is all the doctors would be building less vacation homes for their trophy wives.
i have no earthly idea what you do for a living, but for the sake of argument, let's say you build furniture like many of the fine folks on this forum. would you like the government to tell you what kind of pieces to build, how much you're allowed to charge for it and/or how much you're allowed to make in a year, who you can and can't have as a customer, etc, etc, etc? your last cheap shot referring to how much doctors make, what they might spend it on, and the inference they all dump their first wives for bimbos half their age was uncalled for. it reeked of class envy and pure jealousy and has no purpose in a civilized discussion about safety and its related economics. just because somebody else has something that you don't doesn't mean a) they didn't come by it honestly, b) they don't have the right to use it as they see fit (within legal limits), or c) you or anyone else has a right to it just because they have it, you want/need it. by what moral right do you have a claim to another's property, time or talent? there are some lovely paradises on this earth that still desperately cling to the concept of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" feel free to learn about them sometime.
m
Easy Mitch your going to blow a gasket! I'm just saying there are x amounts of dollars for health care and it seems to me the europeans do it better than we do. We just were doing an install in a doctors house yesterday. Nice fellow,everything perfect,6000sq ft. of perfect order...for two people!!!!!
if you are really "just saying there are x amounts of dollars for health care and it seems to me the europeans do it better than we do" than leave it at that without the class envy, eat the rich attitude. your bias is showing. when you color your argument with that crap it makes you look like if you had to make your choices, you would prefer that everybody were poor just so nobody would ever be rich. (unless, of course, they made their money in one of jerryk's approved fields.)
exactly how many installs of high dollar units do you do in the homes of the poor and middle class? i've made my living primarily as an artist catering to the carriage trade (a couple of my clients are billionaires) for the last twenty years, most of those years for a public school teacher level income, but i've never once forgotten which side my bread is buttered on.
you want to argue for universal insurance on its merits, be my guest. as someone once said, "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." just leave the petty, jealous cheap shots out of it.
m
O.k sorry I'll try to be a better person but did it ever occur to you that the reason we have to fight for get paid $35 dollars and hour after expenses (if we're lucky) by doctors and lawyers who are paid $200 dollars is they have unions and we don't.
If Home Depot would open up some big assed hospitals and legal clinics they could put the pressure on doctors and lawyers that they put on me.
In this reality the client speaks: " well I can get a heart Bypass at Home Depot for half of what your charging me"
Jerryk,
If it works so good of the Canadians, why are they flocking into the US and paying cash for needed surgery? Our hospitals here in Michigan perform operations every day on Canadians.
Joe Phillips
Plastics pay the bills, Woodworking keeps me sane!
The system works reasonably well for most Canadians. "reasonably well" and "most" leave a lot of room. GPs in Canada are, for the most part, not happy. Overworked, underpaid, treated like crap by all sides.
Patients are, for the most part, reasonably happy, but always looking for more. The nice thing is to know that if you need it, the system will look after you. The unfortunate thing is, if you don't pay for it, you don't tend to see its value.
There's a national health service (first in the world?) in the UK and it works well most of the time for most people. The more critical the illness the better it works. People also have the option of 'going private' and many do in order to hasten operations which they would otherwise have to wait months for.
One of the reasons why health services like ours frequently struggle is that the funding will NEVER match the demand. That simple truth has been recognized now and most people will vote for a government that provides what they consider acceptable for an acceptable level of taxation
The average doctor here has the choice of staying in the health service (most do) or of setting up a private practice of joining a private healthcare firm
The general rule of insurance is that those that can afford it the least are the ones that need it the most.
John
OK my final point then I'll shut up... I swear.... Legal Judgments would go down to near nothing if the injured person had a national heath insurance based system to rely on. Counter to the dogma stuffed down our throats from talk radio most judgments are used to pay medical bills. No medical bills to pay equals lower judgements. Heck I'd even throw in a little tort reform to get the deal done.
Next time you're at a big woodworking show ask the Festo guys from Germany what they think about their health system.
joe buddy, could you please take it from here? i have no idea how to even begin reasoning with someone who is arguing that doctors and lawyers can charge $200/hr because they're union? (hmm, my lawyer gets $300 and if you ask me, he's worth every nickel- or better yet, ask my former business partner who now buys preparation h by the case)
thanks, i owe you one.
m
Here's the problem with a single payer system - especially one funded by the "government." Instead of paying a premium to a private health care company, you will be paying an added payroll deduction to fund this "free" health care. All your doing is shifting the cost to a different place.
Precisely. And it ignores some of the root causes for the spiraling health care costs in this country. Tort reform needs to be instituted. It is outrageous that a guy with a long history of heart disease, including prior heart attacks, can sue AND WIN a multi-million dollar lawsuit against the manufactorer of a pull-start lawn mower because this guy had yet another heart attack while trying to start his damn lawn mower (true story as reported years ago in Reader's Digest). It is these types of frivelous lawsuits that drive up the costs of everything, including medical insurance! Malpractice insurance is spiraling out of control precisely because people look to win huge damages by suing doctors who they presume to all be wealthy - which is a gross logical fallacy BTW.
Regards,
Kevin
Accidents happen. Sometimes because people aren't as careful as they should have been. The fact that this guy had a wife and daughter has NOTHING to do with anything. If he was single, would it mean Liquid Nails wasn't at fault? You need to separate the facts that are germaine to the emotional bs. The legal recourse is for when a manufacturer should have forseen a certain event happening, not for something they warned about and wasn't heeded.
Bingo! I totally agree.
Regards,
Kevin
To clarify, my point is that accidents do happen. It is simply not reasonable to expect a label on a tube of glue to educate the average user to a level that under no circumstance an accident could happen. The other respondant here talks about bringing 2-3 box fans to the job. Good for him, but this still doesn't preclude an explosion. A very likely scenario is that the fans are set up and working prior to dispensing the product. After several hours a lot of product has been used and for some reason power is lost. 20 minutes later power is restored. Fumes have accumulated exceeding the LEL. The centrifugal switch in a fan motor arcs and boom. Is he supposed to carry around an explosion proof fan? At some point the user of the product is supposed to know what he's doing. Would you advocate a judgement against Lilly if the same guy was cleaning old mastic off the floor with lacquer thinner because the label didn't specifically address this situation? The label warns of volatile fumes and says to use adaquate ventillation. That's reasonable. The label couldn't/shouldn't have to define adaquate ventillation for every possible situation.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
You do make a good point but I think this situation is a little different. In the real world when you use a product such as Liquid Nails day end day out without the slightest indication that it could blow up like a bomb a certain level of comfort develops. Yes that is a bad thing but it happens. Now, I bet these incidents have happened before and been covered up by non-disclosure documents signed at settlement. if this information was more widely circulated rather than hidden from the public maybe this guy would still be alive.
OK I guess I'm done complaining about this tragic accident. Sorry about the John Wayne crack, I've always been a Robert Mitchum fan.
"Sorry about the John Wayne crack, I've always been a Robert Mitchum fan."
It's OK the Duke was bullet-proof. By the way I've lost my commerative Robert Mitchum drinking helmet. I left it hanging on a branch of the Sonny Bono pine tree on the way to John Denver airport. Do you know where I might find another? :)John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
Boris -
Regarding your comment that a national health care system will 'cost us all', I agree whole heartedly. It's bad enough with health care being a private concern. I just got notified that my medical coverage premium (where did they come up with that for a description of the cost?) will be going up. This is not based on how much I use my health insurance at all. It's based on overall claims the underwriter is faced with.
I have $5000 deductible! As an individual subscriber, there's no way I could pay for coverage with a lower deductible here in WA state. At age 62, one's choices are limited.
I have a complete physical once a year. That's *all* the medical costs I've had for the past almost eight years. Yes, I've been lucky. But I also don't run to the doctor every time I sneeze.
It really bugs me that I do my best to avoid making claims on my insurance but it makes no difference that I'm clearly a lower risk than most of the other subscribers in my plan.
Perhaps I'm missing something here, but I feel like I'm footing the bill for those who don't pay as much attention to protecting themselves as I do.
Sorry for the rant but I do feel a little better. (grin)
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Perhaps I'm missing something here, but I feel like I'm footing the bill for those who don't pay as much attention to protecting themselves as I do.
That's the basis of insurance. A group of people getting together to share the risk of catastrophic charges. It sucks but, when you get your quadruple bypass everyone else will get screwed by you!
Has anyone ever recieved a statement by the insurance company about how much they actually pay. It is often only about 10% of the whole bill! When they say they will be responsible for say 80% of your bills that does not mean they will pay that much. Those companies are there for one reason - to make money. Don't kid yourselves, the more people you have involved in things the more it costs - governemnt included.
Don't knock insurance till you've had a catastrophic loss.
(Now, let's retire this thread to the Cafe for a drink and some friendly conversation.)
we have had a couple. That's how I know how little they actually pay.
What do you say we move this Health Care thread over to the Cafe'.
How 'bout them Liquid Nails!
Edited 6/18/2003 11:10:36 AM ET by Ken
I just pulled out a tube of Liquid Nails, Turns out It even says fumes can travel a long distance turn off all pilots.
As far as the national insurance thing, I think it a great idea.
Who do trust more with you life, "the president" or some corporate peter schilling type thats more interested in money than morals.
Also the government would not get into the health care business as a competitor. Free enterprise would be safe. The govenment would just handle the billing/approval part. They already do this in medicare -medical, very old programs, NOT A FALURE. Infact there adding to them this year (prescription drugs).
Health Companies waste huge amouts of money on everything from executives, advertising, posh properties, jets, dividens, and greed ofcourse... None of which have anything to do with health!!!
I buy my own insurance, VERY Expensive.
john g
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