I guess I’ve been living under a rock.
I went to Home Depot today to buy some 12″ wide MDF for a small utility box project. No such stock. Right now I have no facilities to transport or conveniently cut down 4×8 sheets which is all they had, other than 2 x 4 sheets of 1/2″ stuff.
So I went to look at 1×12 pine. They had plenty of that. New shipment, in fact. To my surprise, 1×12 pine measures 11-1/4 inches wide. When did the standard for 12″ stock become 11-/14″? How long have I been under this rock?
It has been so long since I have bought anything but hardwood, that I truly cannot remember buying anything smaller than 11-3/4″ in pine goods and I remember all the complaining when stock got that small.
There wasn’t a piece of wood in the entire bin that was usable due to twisting and cupping beyond anything I have ever seen in stock offered for sale. And it was all incredibly wet. Who buys this junk?
Rich
Replies
Rich14
My local big box stores (home despot and louie's) will make one or two cuts in 4X8 sheets for free, 25 cents a cut thereafter.
As regards wood not matching its nominal numbers, well I remember asking that question of my grandfather back in the 1950's. His response - " a long time now"
and as to who buys it, mostly remodelers, both DIY and contractors. Try your local lumberyard, the quality is generally much higher. But you still wont get wood at the stated dimension - that's pretty well universal.
Mike
This store has no-one to operate the panel cutter. I can get it cut, "in 48 hours." Even then, that doesn't give me what I was after - 12" MDF stock."But you still wont get wood at the stated dimension - that's pretty well universal."Yeah. That's not my point. Dimensioned lumber is always less than the stated size. I just had no idea that 11-1/4" was the "nominal" size of 12" stock now. I guess 11" is just waiting to become the next "standard."Oh, I didn't mention before, the lumber was not milled with parallel edges, so that some boards were 11-1/4" at one end, but less than that at the other end.Rich
Rich,
Your post reminds me of a cartoon I saw in an old magazine, a long time ago. Two carpenters in bib overalls, hammer in hand, saw in the other, geezing, "Oh, yeah," one of them is saying, "I can remember when a two by four was a full one and three quarters by three and three quarters." Two by fours, candybars, nothing is as big as it used to be. That's what she said.
Ray
I can remember when I could buy "full dimension" 2 by 4's and the like, and they were indeed right on their specified dimensions and had sharp edges. I could get full dimension pine and redwood here in the East, but I haven't even looked for that sort of thing in a long time. Is it still available anywhere that anyone knows of?
Pete
To my surprise, 1x12 pine measures 11-1/4 inches wide. When did the standard for 12" stock become 11-/14"?
They measure the board when cut and rate it at that size - drying caused shrinkage, so a nominal 2"x4" shrinks and when sold ends up being 1 1/2" x 3 1/2"
I complained about this 40+ years ago after finding 2x4 studs in an old house actually were 2"x4" actual size.
" There'll be no living with her now" - Captain Jack Sparrow
Maybe I inadverently caused some confusion here.I KNOW that dimensioned stock is less than the listed size. It ALWAYS has been. I just didn't expect 12" stock to be as small as 11-1/4." I used to get 12" stock that was 11-3/4". That used to be the "standard S4S" size.I was aware that cheaper grades of 12" stock were being sold at 11-1/2". But this 11-1/4" junk was a shock.
I guess you have been hiding under that rock for a long time, more than 1/2 a century. Lumber is sold at it's rough cut dimension, always has been. Your 1x12 actually was 1x12 until it went through the planer. You lose 1/4" in thickness and 1/4" in width until you use 8" lumber. From 8" on, you lose 1/2" in width. A 1x8 measures 7 1/4" after surfacing, 1x10 = 9 1/4", 1x12= 11 1/4". It has nothing to do with drying or shrinking. If, however, you buy rough sawn stock, as many cabinetmakers do, you actually get a full 1"x12", often a bit more. You may be able to get 11 1/2" by surfacing the stock yourself, sometimes more. It depends on how long and how crooked it is before straightening. When I was a kid, lumber came from local saw mills. Sometimes you would get 11 3/4". The world was a different place in the 60's. By the end of them, 11 1/4" was standard. You may still be able to find local mills that are more generous, but not a big box or even most lumber suppliers. Stair risers are often 7 3/8" or more, you have to buy 10" stock if the risers are over 7 1/4". I started working full time in 1966, I've been at it ever since and that's the way it has always been. Framing lumber too.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
"From 8" on, you lose 1/2" in width."So...shouldn't his 1 x 12 be 3/4 x 11 1/2?And your examples should read "A 1x8 measures 7 3/4" after surfacing, 1x10 = 9 1/2", 1x12= 11 1/2" ???
Hammer1 is right -- approximately. Be aware that there are no government standards for lumber sizes or grading. It is all voluntary and subject to change if industry wishes which it has wished several times. Not only that, but try to make any sense out of the words used to express grades. You must be an insider to understand. And grading is almost purely subjective. (I can hear the protests alresdy!) I have no idea how someone came to have dressed lumber to the full dimensions. It had to be a mistake -- new guy on the job or something like that. If you want to know more, there have been articles on these subjects in FHB/FWW as well as other WW magazines from time to time.Cadiddlehopper
My bad, Mumda. That's a typo, you lose 3/4". Is it conservation or a rip off? I don't know, it's just the way it is.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Most of the shrinkage is caused by the planer not the kiln.
Rich,
Certain things aren't worth fighting. The uselessness of contemporary
"Big Box Store" pine for making furniture is one of them. Stick to hardwood.
But I am surprised that your Home Depot didnt have 12' wide MDF for use as shelves. It comes naked and covered in melamine (or something like that).
Find a sawmill.
When I was in my 20s, you could go into any Sears, and the folks in the tool department were very knowledgeable about woodwork. I miss that too.
Enjoy,
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
AND they had tools that weren't made from injection-molded marshmallows. Maybe I'm gettin' old too. Sears used to make SOME good tools, now it just seems to be all junk. Even their hand tools have deteriorated. They are now being sold by either K-Mart or Target (I can't remember which). Maybe I've just become more of a tool snob. :-)
As to the wood: My Dad always said "Woodworking is one of the only pastime where you go and buy as large of a piece of expensive material as you can afford, take it home, cut it into little pieces, and then glue it back together." I expect that quality materials will continue to become less available as more people cover the earth. As materials become more scarce (and more expensive), we will derive more frugal ways to utilize it. Look at some of the really old (300 years) furniture that had drawer fronts cut from a 14"x30"x8" piece of highly figured mahogany. Very few of us will get to do that today because of the sheer cost of the materials. The big-box suppliers are just the indicator of what is in common use. Hollow-core doors made from tempered hardboard are another good example. I quit using the names as a measurement a long time ago. Although it seems silly to ask how thick is your 5/4 stock, I find myself doing that.
Bill in N. CA
Bill,
thanks for the reply. Glad you agree about Sears in the "old days". The only thing I would get there any more are the Craftsman screwdrivers and wrenchs that come with a "forever" guarantee. They replace any of that stuff with no grief. Also a good place to buy rubber hoses for outdoor use. They are Craftsman and come with a "forever" guarantee. I am currently on my third hose in about thirty years, but only paid for the first one. As far as materials go, -- wood is getting more expensive BUT I haven't seen it becoming scarce. My wife and I went to the Waterford, VA arts and crafts fair last weekend. Best set of furniture makers that I have ever seen in one place. One of Knots' own, joinerswork, (Ray Pine) was one of the furniture makers who was selected to participate. There was an enormous amount of curly maple furniture on display. All of the woodworkers were happy to tell you where they buy their wood. While wood is getting more expensive, top notch woodworkers are getting more money than ever for their work. Not many small tables at the Waterford festival were less than $1000. Lots of chairs that sold for multiple thousands of dollars. Most of the chairmakers are happy to take you on as a student for one week. For $1000, you get a week of learning and the chair that you made. I believe these are great times for woodworkers. Phenomenal tools. Great wood (but not in the big box stores). Tremendous amount of "how to" information on the web and in books, and available by good teachers. Can you imagine what Chippendale and Seymour and the others could have done if they were alive today! Heck, there is no doubt in my mind that better quality furniture, with higher quality joinery, with better finishes are being made now than at any time in history.Unfortunately, I am merely an avid hobbyist, not a "master". But my family likes my furniture. Of course, they get it at a good price. ($0). What type of woodwork do you do?Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I have gone through several woodworking stages. Like you I am a non-professional. Been making sawdust for about 27 years. Started with little stuff (shelves), moved to cabinets, then furniture, played with carving (didn't work out for me), and now I am back to shelves (albeit somewhat more sophisticated than the originals). I have made a guitar, lots of kid's toys, and a mound of scraps! ;-) As an interesting side note to the materials discussion, I have made eight or nine video game boxes for friends and neighbors kid's console systems. I was learning how to use my Leigh dovetail jig and so went down and bought a bunch of #3 pine from HD. I built several boxes for my son's video game junk, finished em with orange shellac and seems like everybody wanted one. My son is now nineteen and we went to throw out the old box, (looks good now - has a nice patina) and he howled in protest. I love building things from tiger-maple, walnut, and other beautiful woods, but sometimes the simple stuff works out well. I just like making things.
Bill in N CA.
I built a house in the early sixties which had your size lumber - not full size, but closer. I think it was not long after that that the industry sized it to smaller dimensions. Probably some forty years ago. So how old are you?
Huh? Wha . . . gosh. Was I asleep all this time?The Beatles are still playing together . . . right?
I am a contractor and for the past twenty years I have watched 5/4 become 1" 3/16", then 1 1/4", then 1 1/8", I thought that they hit the wall with 1" stock, but I ran across some 5/4, primed cedar that measured 15/16". I checked a few , just to be sure. I've seen 1x as thin as 5/8", maybe a smidgen under, if nothing else, it makes the arithmetic H#ll. In particular when matching old stock.
Best,
John
So I went to look at 1x12 pine. They had plenty of that. New shipment, in fact. To my surprise, 1x12 pine measures 11-1/4 inches wide. When did the standard for 12" stock become 11-/14"? How long have I been under this rock?
About as long as a "nickel bag" has still been a "nickel bag"...
Oh, wow . . . man!
How come I can't remember the sixties?
I mean, like . . . .
All 1 x 8 poplar that I get from 84 lumber (not by my choice) measures 7 5/16
mark
Rich, the pine that I have found at my local Homeus Depotamus was actually pretty nice. It was quite dry and the planing was quite nice as compared to stock that I saw at other lumber yards. I would go back from time to time as they got in new stock and sort thru it quite thoroughly. The pic that I am posting shows what I did with it. I wonder if your store gets it's supply from a different mill.
Ronaway,
Great floor! I have used a lot of pine in 35 years but I have never done a floor. I have come to think of pine as very easy to dent. How is it working out with furniture and traffic on it?I have seen "southern heart pine" used as flooring to beautiful effect, but I have the feeling it is harder than the pine at Home Deopt these days. So to continue my education, please let me know about the "wearability" of HD pine floors.
Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
At the beginning of our house design our goal was to build as authentic a New England cape as possible. The authentic floor material would be white pine. Yes it dents, in fact after the second coat of finish we actually took chains and distressed it. It is going to get beat up so you may as well start with it that way. The floor has 4 coats of waterlox applied. 2 coats of the original sealer and finish and 2 coats of satin rubbed down between coats with maroon scotch brite pads. Before we started we accepted that the floor would dent easily and we've actually embraced the idea and actually look forward to it becoming even more worn over the years. With the Waterlox we can just clean the floor thoroughly and add more finish as needed over the years. We looked into buying already processed T&G flooring but the best price we found was about $3.00 a square foot plus freight which would have brought the price to about $4.00 delivered. Taking my time and collecting the material the way I did we figure we've got about $1.25 per sqr. ft. in this floor.Ron
Ron,
thanks for the information about your pine floor and the process you used to finish it. Pine floors have been around for a long time. I am sure that yours will be too. $1.25 a square foot is phenomenal. Congratulations.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
So did you machine tongues and grooves into the boards or just nail it down?
I did not machine tongues and grooves in the boards, I just made sure the width was consistent all the way down the boards and then faced nailed them down. I had used this technique in another building on my property with great results. 5 years later it still looks as good as when I put them down.Ron
Very nice work. If you had used the stock I saw, you would have a floor that causes motion sickness!Rich
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