I am deciding between these two options for my first jointer which I plan to use as a jointer and not simply as a large smoothing plane. The woods that I primarily work with are maple, cherry and walnut.
It seems that the advantages of the #7 are smaller price and the option to use a HAF. Less width could be an advantage given that the #8 may take more muscle to move it. Not needing to upgrade my narrow waterstones to wider stones falls under “price”.
The advantages of the #8 seem to be greater width to joint an edge on a thicker board and greater mass with which to plane right through anything in the board.
Previous discussion in Knots of the #7-1/2 has led me to rule that plane out.
Does anyone want to offer an opinion and/or other advantages? Experience preferred, of course 🙂
Monte
Replies
I have a #8 and it is big. Quite heavy so it takes some muscle to use.
It works well for all things but does tend to be a little on the heavy side.
I find myself reaching for my #6 for smaller edge jointing tasks.
I don't see a need for the high angle frog for a jointer plane.
The long sole is great for edge jointing but I can't say if the 2" is worth the money over the #7.
However I do flatten all my boards by hand since I do not have a large jointer and I find the wide blade and mass of the overall tool advantageous.
Plus it is a good work out.
If you get the #7 you will always wonder about the #8.
Get the #8 and if you don't like it, sell it and get the #7.
Experience is really the best teacher.
J.P.
Thanks for the advice, JP.
I did handle both the #8 and the #7 in my local Woodcraft, and can certainly feel the difference in weight.
I need to make a decision by next weekend because my Woodcraft is having an anniversay sale :)
Monte
Get the #8.If it's too much then sell it on e-bay for what you paid for it.Just save the box.Heck, if you have a nice sharp blade you may get more than you paid for it.J.P.
If I could only have one plane it would be the #7, period. It will do just about every thing you need. If you need a #8’s 2 5/8” blade to edge joint boards, you are dealing with some big stock! The #8 is just too big in my opinion that is a lot of weight to control. There is a reason that it was originally never a big seller and the #7 was. The L-N #7 is just a great tool.
Napie, thank you for your advice, too.
I am looking forward to reading the pros-cons and as I said just a moment ago, I am planning the purchase next weekend.
I will be out of touch with Knots over the weekend, but hope to hear from anyone who cares to explain their reasoning as it will help me with my decision.
Monte
Monte,
I have been looking into the same 7 vs 8 question. It was on Knots last month. Lots of people go through this. I watched a Rob Cosman video and he recommends the 8. I wrote to him and he answered that he strongly prefers the 8 because of its size and heft. Once you get it moving, it is easier to keep moving. But then I called the LN phone number and the guy told me that they don't sell many 8s because they are just too big. They sell a lot more 7s than 8s. Now the Lee Valley answer is the low angle bevel up #7, for which you can get a fence which bolts on to the plane to guarantee that you are planing square. That was discussed quite a bit on Knots. Those who had used the fence liked it, even one who didn't use it all the time. He said that when he wants to use it, it really comes in handy. But now there is a long thread going on about taking care of Bevel Up planes.It is very very confusing. One person said to get the 8 and try it. If you don't like it, sell it. That is easy to do on Ebay. Then get the 7.By the way, I work at the local Woodcraft part-time. I see people buying the sales. I don't recommend it. Overall I see a lot of people trying to take advantage of a sale and buying things that they really don't need and may not use. I recommend buying when your next project calls for it. If you know you will "need" something in the future and a sale comes up, that is great.In any case, please keep me in mind. I haven't decided yet. I'd like to know what you come up with. Everyone comes up with different advice. The only way to find out what works for you is to try.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Napie-you must take a medal-I could not agree more.
A thing the length and size of a number 8 is quite unnecessary for furniture builders. A number 7 is highly versatile and easily used to straighten boards or joint edges with or without spring.
You may want a number 8if you are without electricity and inclined towards building bank counter tops, mile long bar tops and certain architectural woodwork...Philip Marcou
Perhaps not a medal, but some ibuprofen! I just surfaced and edged jointed enough stock for a couple dozen boxes that’ll be Christmas gifts this year. I wonder just what shape our forefathers were in to do this every day all day… And I go to the gym at least four days a week. Anyway, I love my #7, it is the easily most used plane I have.
"I wonder just what shape our forefathers were in to do this every day all day…"
In good enough shape to show a sixteen year old apprentice how to do it (a board or two) and then turn the task over to him.
"You do not need a scrub plane. "
Nope, just the aforementioned sixteen year old apprentice. If you don't have that, a scrubber might be a good idea.
Edited 10/16/2007 9:55 am ET by TaunTonMacoute
I wonder just what shape our forefathers were in to do this every day all day…AND they probably did their woodworking AFTER the farm chores!
Hey Will,
Imagine milking all them cows by hand and then workin them #7s by hand after supper!
Maybe that's why they had a shot or 3 B4 bedtime!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I have three 7's (SW, 607, and LN). I use them a lot. The only time I can ever remember wishing I had an 8 was when jointing some 5/4 stock for a thick table top glue up. I like to match plane, and found the 7 barely reached. I was unsatisfied with the result so I "cheated" by using my Forrest ripping blade and cleaning the minor saw marks off smoother set to take only the ridges. Worked out fine. I'm pretty sure I would not like trying/truing a panel with an 8 - hell, it's plenty of work out with a 7 or even a 5.
I think both planes are too short. So forget the length issue. I think you have to choose one over the other based on the blade width. I prefer 6/4 stock for a table. After you plane it, you may have 1-1/4" + thick stock. You really can't match plane 2-1/2" thick stuff with a 2-3/8" blade. 2-5/8" is marginal. My wooden plane is 2-7/8".
So if this is something that means something to you, get the #8. Otherwise, choose a #7. Its lighter and I agree the length difference is insignificant.
Adam
Monte:
We use both in our shop and we're all girls! Keeping it sharp is the real key to the effort issue. The #7s are probably used more because most of the time we're truing edges and most stock is less than 6/4. If I could only choose one it would probably be a #7 but I do like have ing both! Which ever you choose keep it scary sharp at all times and you'll be a happy camper!
Madison2
Fair amount of good advise so far... no point repeating it so I'll take a different tack... Step back a little bit from this decision and have a think about what other planes you have, what other planes you think you might need, whether or not interchangeability of parts is important to you...
Personally I opted for the #7; it was the first 2 3/8" blade plane that I bought after a ton of soul searching along the lines of justifying it's cost v's the use it'd get. I've subsequently added the rest of the 2 3/8" planes to my range simply because their bed length is useful, the blade size suits my sharpening gear, I can interchange frogs, blades and chip breakers as and when the need occurs... I've long since stopped worrying about the planes proving their worth, and for the record, the #8 has never entered my mind (mainly because the #7 does a good enough job of reducing me to a whimpering wreck... Ahem).
Another question to consider is what advantage would the bigger plane have? Match planing fairly wide stock has been mentioned previously, but other than that, I really canna think of anything that the #7 canna cope perfectly well with. Granted, the extra heft will add more authority, but the #7's no slouch in that department either.
One last point to bear in mind... with planes of this caliber, there's no such thing as a bad decision... I seriously doubt that either will disappoint
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
FWIW, I use a Record 08 and love the mass. I don't find it harder to push, I do find it harder taking it off and putting it back on the shelf. Once you're pushing it, momentum seems to come into play. It laughs at knots, which might make a No. 7 drag a little.
First of all, thank you, all of you, for offering your advice and sharing your experience. I am near the beginning of the learning curve with hand tools and appreciate those who take the time to teach others what they’ve learned.
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Second, I’ve been reading voraciously, both on Knots and in books and magazines. On Friday, I picked up Hand Tool Essentials from the library (thank you, for Adam C. for the recommendation in a previous thread) and learned a great deal from an article by Chris Schwarz called “Coarse, Medium, Fine.”
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Third, I wandered into my local Woodcraft store over the weekend so that I could handle the #7 and the #8 again, and the owner advised me that their 15% anniversary discount started now. Hmm…I decided that I had enough information to make a decision and purchased the #7 along with a #4 to go with it.
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I think that I now have the three planes necessary to prepare stock. I already had a #5 which I had unknowingly set up as a smoother and will now be setting up as a fore plane to hog off material as the first step in flattening a board. Then will follow my (new) #7 to level the hills left by the #5. As I understand it, I should probably cut my joinery before finishing surfaces with my (new) #4 as the final surface.
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If I had purchased the #8, I would not have been able to purchase the #4 at this time, so this also played into my decision. There may come a time when I will purchase a #8, but more likely than not, I will be looking first for a long, wooden jointer with a 2-7/8” blade if and when I need to match edge really thick stock such as for a table top.
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My current project is to build my own workbench (Tage Frid’s version) and I am making my own top. I think that all three of these hand planes will find use as I progress.
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Thank you all, again, for contributing to my education.
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Now to begin saving money for a shoulder plane, a block plane, a dovetail saw… J
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Monte
Good deal. I built a Frid style bench almost twenty years ago and it has served me well. It is now the second bench in the shop and is my favorite for cutting dovetails, (the main bench has a Yost pattern maker vice). You’ll very much enjoy the process of building it. And remember, get your vice hardware before you start as the dimensions will be dependent on them and they differ. As to saws, I’m a big fan of the bowsaw, once you get used to them you’ll never use anything else.
Thanks for the encouragement, Napie. I took Tage's advice (and yours) and already purchased my vise screws so that I can adjust the dimensions.
One question: do you find that the bench heavy enough not to slide around under heavy planing?
I am looking forward to planing wood on top of a "real" bench with my #7. The countertop version I currently use with clamps holding clamps is getting old.
Monte
It has been fine for any aggressive work I have done on it, although any added weight is always a help, Frank Klausz’s bench is basically the same just larger. One thing I would also change is to use the <!----><!----><!---->Lee<!----> <!---->Valley<!----><!----> bench bolts they are a real step up in putting the base together.
I think that I now have the three planes necessary to prepare stock.
Nice decision Monte... Just 1 comment though. I started out in handraulics with exactly the same planes, and, quality issues aside (Stanleys that I've long since retired) while they were fine for what they were, stock prep took me forever until I "saw the light" and bought a proper scrub plane. Talk about an eye opener!!
At a stroke (well.... quite a few strokes if yer being picky) I cut the stock prep time by half (not to mention scaring the chit outa myself the first time the chips started flying). I doubt I'd be the only guy in here to tell you that when preparing roughsawn stock, or dimentioning to thickness, this plane makes the job a hellova lot faster.
Dinna let it's diminutive size or apparent simplicity kid ya... when it comes to fast stock removal, this wee beastie's about as subtle as Taz after a fasting diet!! It doesn't take many prisoners, and it's the one plane that I make a point of wearing safety glasses when I'm using it... If I'd sense enough to use a hand brush or wear gloves I'd probably cut the prep time in half again; less time plicking splinters outa my hands after brushing away the chips (ye canna really call the debris "shavings").
I'm not saying to drop everything to make this your next buy, but I'd strongly recommend that you think about getting one if most of your stock prep is done by hand; saves more time, gives a far more "aggressive" work out too... think of it as a thicknesser and a multigym in a nice neat package...
BTW, your list for subsequent buys looks fine... good choices, but be warned... it's gonna get looooooooooooongerrrrrrr... ;)
dinna say I didnae warn ya... ;)Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Thanks, Mike...maybe I will be able to skip going to the gym on the days that I work out in the shop.
I had considered a scrub plane, but a comment by Chris Schwarz in Hand Tool Essentials made me think that the #5 should be the first plane to touch the rough-sawn plank. He seems to think that the scrub plane was used on rough edges rather than on the face.
I'll certainly consider the scrub plane again, and they really aren't that expensive in comparison to the "finer" planes.
I need to finish my workbench first and then I intend to really go after some rough boards.
Monte
You do not need a scrub plane. I have an old <!----><!----><!---->Stanley<!----><!----> #5 that has a pretty fair curve ground on the blade and is set quite coarse, (frog is way back) a #5-1/4 would be fine too. It will get rough stock ready for the jointer plenty fast. Old #5’s are plentiful and cheap and are great for this task. Oh, and I have never used a scrub or a coarse #5 on the edge of a plank, they are for prepping the face for the #7. The edge in most cases can be planed with the #7 at the start.
"You do not need a scrub plane. "
Here's a scenario: You have an 18 inch wide plank of hardwood 4 feet long and it's rough cut 8/4. You need something closer to 5/4 for your chest lid, panel, table top, etc. It won't fit through your 12 inch electric planer. It can't be resawed on your 14" bandsaw with a riser block. You don't want to rip this lovely wide board and glue it back. I'll give you a choice for removing that 6 square feet 3/4" deep: cambered jack OR scrub? If you choose the jack, I'll take the scrub and we can race. LOL.
Been there done that, the jack is fine. And how often does that occur, enough to buy another plane? Not in my shop. With enough camber on the blade and the frog set back far enough it is very close to being a scrub anyway.
Depends on how you define "fine" I guess.
A nice user Stanley 40 can be had on eBay for less than $50:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Stanley-No-40-Scrub-Plane-Nice-No-Reserve_W0QQitemZ150169609819QQihZ005QQcategoryZ13874QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
As for how often it occurs, I suppose that depends upon the sort of woodworking you do.
So, how about that race? ;-)
Cheers.
While I seriously doubt it applies to Napie, I've had the debate about scrubs before with guys that own a fleet of redundant planes and my question has always been "if all of these, then why not a scrubber?" Of course it's because there is really little, if any, conversion of rough stock with hand planes going on in the first place, truth be told.
But, again, I don't think this applies to Napie.
Edited 10/16/2007 12:04 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute
there is really little, if any, conversion of rough stock with hand planes going on in the first place, truth be told.
Sounds right to me. It's a lot of work. I would imagine pros would have wider planers, bigger band saws, or even electric hand planers and wide drum sanders to deal with the occassional need. It's only us hobbiests (without good alternatives) or dedicated galoots (who prefer the hand routes for a variety of reasons) that are gonna pick up the scrub very often.
Edited 10/16/2007 11:46 am ET by Samson
I still make a buck or two with my woodworking, but mostly making chairs, so I was already doing a lot of handwork when I decided to go organic. I really don't want the volume of work it would take to push me back into rented space, expensive machines, dust collection, zoning restrictions, landlords, insurance, Tinkerbell employees that don't give a tinker's damn, etc.
$hit fire, that sounds like a factory doesn't it? Yecchhh...
I think a lot of guys want to think they're big enough for all that but then the overhead starts to really run and things go downhill from there. That's when woodworking schools are usually born.
Edited 10/16/2007 12:14 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute
I have unloaded a lot of my planes. While they were nice to look at the space and money was put to better use. The #7 is the most used followed by the #4 ½ <!----><!----><!---->york<!----><!----> pitch.
You know, the best advice I've seen on scrubs (for those who might be confused by them) is a little blurb on ECE's website (or in some of their marketing materials, I can't remember which) which suggests using a scrubber when you have a quarter inch or more to remove and a jack when you have less than a quarter inch of stock to remove.
If my situation represents the 'real world' - a dude making a little scratch with his woodworking, that turns out to be about how it works for me. If I have a knife at my throat, meaning I need to get the maximum thickness out of a roughsawn board, I've cleaned off with a No. 7 or 8 more than once. The length keeps you out of trouble. I vacillate a little, but not a whole lot. My scrub plane gets used plenty. It was not a bad investment.
I don't have a whole lot of tools. That's what I like about hand tool woodworking.
I don't have a whole lot of tools. That's what I like about hand tool woodworking.
This comment stood out for me. I guess that: a) your a pro b) you use hand tools c) you enjoy hand tools and d) you're not a collector.
Based on this what would you consider your basic "kit" of hand planes? What planes do you need to get the work done in an efficient and timely manner?
And how often does that occur, enough to buy another plane?
I've the bulk of a whole log's worth of rippled sycamore right behind me, narrowest of which is about 21"... If I went back to hitting it with a #5 first I doubt I'd see the other side of the stack before they buried me... I'm not saying you're wrong.. but I'll stick with what I know works best for me...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Thanks, again, to all for your suggestions on which planes to purchase.
Now, does anyone have suggestions on how to find more time in the workshop? :)
Monte
I had considered a scrub plane, but a comment by Chris Schwarz in Hand Tool Essentials made me think that the #5 should be the first plane to touch the rough-sawn plank. He seems to think that the scrub plane was used on rough edges rather than on the face.
Hi Monte
I think that Chris has since changed his mind about the scrub used this way, and is thinking more conventionally now.
For reference, I do use a scrub, such as the LV or Stanley #40, but increasing turn to a Stanley #5 1/2 with a 5 1/2" radius - I like the extra heft when planing hardwoods. It is amazing, however, the wide range of preferences among woodworkers - light, heavy, short, long ...
Regards from Perth
Derek
I'll certainly consider the scrub plane again, and they really aren't that expensive in comparison to the "finer" planes.
Don't be put off by its lack of frills... trust me... it's one of the few planes that'll wipe the floor with a woodmuncher that cost 4x its price... and do it with ease too. As far as the scrub's concerned, a board is a board is a board... doesn't matter how wide it is... if you can physically lift the board onto your bench and manage to reach a little over half way through its width, the scrub can start flattening it for you, and it'll do it without a fuss...
He seems to think that the scrub plane was used on rough edges rather than on the face.
in a situation like that, provided I don't wanna keep the natural edge, the first tool to see it is the saw; get it square(ish) and level(ish) before letting the #7 sort it out. The scrub never sees the edge, just the faces..Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
I just wanted to pitch in with Mike Wallace on this one. I have a whole shelf of L-Ns, Records and Stanleys, plus some old (and some new-ish)woodies. If I'm not doing production work (where I'll start by plugging in a thickness planer <g>), and assuming I need to do some thicknessing -- as opposed to simply cleaning up the surface of a board that's already just about the right thickess -- the first plane on the face of rough-cut lumber is a scrub.
My scrub is an old flea market woodie jack that I converted by opening up the mouth and putting a serious radius on the blade. Total cost: $7. That thing throws off wood chips like a chain saw and is a real pleasure to use. The radiused blade makes this thing a whole 'nuther beastie than just taking a deeper cut with a jack. The real advantage is it allows you to run across the grain quickly and cleanly while taking off copious quantities of wood.
If you are going to dimension rough lumber with hand tools, a scrub is one of the best investments you can make.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Just an update: I was able to spend some quality time using my new L-N #7 over the weekend working at flattening the main part of my newly glued-up benchtop. This was the first time that I've used a large bench plane, and wow...it planes through hard maple with authority!
Moreover, I think that I was actually able to make the entire surface flat using this plane, which was my intention.
I hope that you all don't mind a "wow" from someone fairly new to working with hand tools, but I am sold on the idea and am looking forward to adding to the arsenal.
Monte
Those blurry shapes you see going by are toeholds and rocky outcroppings that you could possibly grab onto to stop or slow your descent down the slippery slope, but don't even think of it! Congrats! Have fun. BTW: the correct answer to every possible tool-buying question is: "One of each!"
"One of each!"
Only one of each? Uh-oh.
any more than one smacks of either greed... wayyy too much cash at yer disposal (best hope SWMBO don't find out) or ummmm... c o l l e c t i n g....
more than one spare blade is fine though.. ;)Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Stuff happens, Mike.
Like I had to buy a second Tite-Mark when Hartville was selling 'em for a mere $64 cuase on my current project I needed two settings and didn't want to keep resetting to those settings.
I often need two drills (one for the pilot and one to drive the screw) or even three (pilot, counter sink, and screw).
Other times I've come across poor old tools that needed a home and were being practically given away - old Stanley 5s, 4s, and even 7s - along with spokeshaves of vrious sorts, oh and draw knives often meet this fate. They turn into great gifts for budding woodworkers of my aquaintance.
Old Chisels and carving tools!? I mean come on, they are like potato chips - yeah can't eat just ten!
Jack knives - yeah I got a problem there. I think it stems from wanting more of them when I was boy. Or it could just be they are like little jewels with their pearly or ebony or exotic wood and bone scales.
Sharpening equipment ... don't get me started!
LOL
<chucklin...
hmmmmm... seems there's some hope for me yet then... I mean... fair doo's.. I got it bad... but I'm nae THAT bad... yet...
Ahem..Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Ya Mike,
Same thing seems to happen to me. Some call me the Pied Piper of Ol tools. Where I work I put out a notice, Looking for Old Woodworking Tools. So far I have been given several planes, some spokeshaves, drawknifes.
One day a trucker handed me several files and a couple rasps. One of the files was/is a Nicholson #50! Hey the price is right.
Winter's coming and that's the time I usually spend a lot of time reworking them thangs. -20° makes for a cold day in the woodshop!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Well, I did it. I have seen the light. I just moved and my shop is now under my daughters room. For me to get any work done is to do it somewhat quietly. For my current project, I had some boards to glue up and since I don't have a jointer I went out and bought a #8. WOW. That was an experience. Now I don't have to worry about running electricity for all my power tools. I should buy stock in LN since I know now that they will be getting a portion of all my paychecks.
"Previous discussion in Knots of the #7-1/2 has led me to rule that plane out."
If i listened to every preacher I ever met, I'd have changed religions 2 dozen times by now. Fact of the matter is the 7 1/2 is a wonderful, useful tool.
But, that's not what this post is about. #7 is fine for all intents and purposes. At least mine.
-JM
If i listened to every preacher I ever met, I'd have changed religions 2 dozen times by now.
Mtnfreak, I suppose that there are more than a couple dozen opinions on this forum on most questions. Being new to the hand tool craft, I will probably change my mind at least twice as time goes by.
But I paid my money and took my choice. Thus far, I am happy with the #7. I'm sure that I will add to the stable when I can and a # 7-1/2 may be one of my future choices....or a #8 :)
Monte
Glad you're having fun with your new plane. I'm late to this discussion, but I'll put in my 2 cents anyway:It's better to have either a #7 or #8 than to have neither one.
I have both and if I could only have one it would be the #8. It is big and heavy but I reach for much more than I reach for the #7.
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