Afternoon Gang,
I am so excited, my new LN chisels will be here friday!! I was watching a Marc Adams video and he said new chisels need to have the backs flattened. Is this true for LN or will they arrive good to go? Please let me know, I don’t want to ruin my new chisels!
Jeff
Replies
Your chisels should be pretty flat, but you still have to go through the process of polishing the backs, as well as the bevel. The good news is, LN does an excellent job of this at the factory at about 400 grit (I believe, I don't work there), so the completion of the flattening/polishing of the chisel backs should go rather quickly. I believe I spent about 5 to 10 minutes on each chisel going through the progression of finer grits ( I use scary sharp) and honing the microbevel.
Take the time to do this initial polishing once, and you shouldn't have to do it again for quite some time, unless you drop a chisel or chip the bevel.
Enjoy. I love my LN chisels. I use them every day.
Walnutz
Hi,
I'll politely dissagree. I do not really think it's necessary to make a special effort to polish the back of your LN chisels.
When you hone you will bring up a minute burr and removing it by lapping the back with a fine stone will polish the faces enough for a keen edge. Having the back polished beyond a 32nd off the cutting edge is really not necessary.
Let me hasten to add that there is nothing wrong with polishing the whole thing (unless you work it out of flat while lapping). It just isn't strictly necessary.
David C.
David,
I agree that the whole back of a chisel doesn't need to be polished. I use the ruler method, popularised by David Charlesworth for the back of plane blades, on all my chisels - although I do flatten out any significant bumps from the back as a whole, first. I use a very thin ruler, too - a 6 incher that is almost like tin foil. :-)
The use of the steel rule method for chisels is frowned on as it gives an ever-so-slight back bevel to the chisel blade - i.e. it's back is not absolutely flat at the edge. In practice, the chisel still seems to act as if it were flat, for all chiselling purposes I have needed so far.
I do use the chisel back to "self-jig" - paring cuts in DT bottoms, for instance. The "back bevel" at the tip is very, very slight, after all. Once the chisel edge has engaged the wood to be pared away, its self-jigging keeps the chisel travelling in the intended direction and plane.
As you suggest, just polishing the back at the tip (and on the microbevel) means the chisels are razor sharp in no time - and also easy to keep that way.
Lataxe
Edited 2/28/2007 2:59 pm ET by Lataxe
Lataxe,
I have dozens of chisels from c. 1800 to 1900 (many from a Master Cabinetmaker's tool chest) and many bear evidence to suggest that your practice of honing a second bevel was at least somewhat common.
While I doubt that the ruler trick was employed per se, I think that in honing or polishing the back the handle of the chisel was raised ever so to the same effect. It may simply have been a function of trying to lap the back on a dished oilstone that imparts the second bevel.
I think if you are stropping on any kind of resiliant base (leather, felt, etc.) you are also doing the same thing, albeit on a very small scale.
Carving chisels are, of course sharpened this way and while I agree with Derek that flat backs are ideal, in paring, registered against a reference surface, even that is not strictly necessary. Some months ago Adam Cherubini explained how he pared bevel down often.
I think if the chisel back has this minor bevel you will learn to adjust and compensate for it. Being attentive to your work and understanding how the tools are employed to give the desired results are what separates the craftsman from the machinist (who are craftsmen of course but rely on the geometric accuracy of the machines to get precise work).
I think trying to apply machinist ideals to woodworking is where many problems start. I suspect that before the industrial revolution, a lot of what we now believe necessary in hand tools sharpening was unheard of.
A very pleasant conversation.
David C
While it is true that only the last bit of the back needs to be polished, but for the chisel to work properly, the back needs to be very flat, so I polish them about the last 1". With a quality chisel like the LN this would only take a minute or two at most when new and would never have to be done again, since subsequent honing would need only the finest stone/grit, to remove the burr.
The ruler trick is very effective for plane irons ( although I just do it free hand) but it is a very poor idea for a chisel. To make an accurate paring cut that back must remain flat on the surface. The second you lift the back off the work, the whole process of controlling the cut becomes more difficult. For this reason I do not strop the backs on leather, which can round them slightly; instead I use a block of wood with diamond paste.
I'm a fanatic about having sharp tools, but I don't take a lot of time to keep them that way.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Edited 3/1/2007 7:59 am ET by RMillard
Rob,
Agree with you here 100%. While a dubbed off back may work very well on a carving chisel, a paring cut in carving is seldom a flat cut. And achieving a paring cut that will yield a surface that is true enough for a tenon cheek, or a sliding dovetail socket, with either the bevel side, or a dubbed over backside of a bench chisel would be very difficult indeed.
Ray, a fan of, not necessarily a fanatic about, sharp tools
Ray,
After reading this thread on flattening chisel backs, I thought back to that great movie "Fantastic Voyage", in which a group of humans were put into a capsule and shrunk down to infinitesimal size and injected into a human's body. In this movie, the workings of the human body became easy to visualize. You were right there, being attached by white cells, and being pushed along in an aorta with every pump of the heart. The problem folks have with flattening the backs of chisels, with having chisels that were polished at the factory and now have dubbed long edged, with putting secondary bevels on one or both sides of a chisel edge, etc, is that they cannot visualize what happens as chisels with various properties slice through wood.It is time for a brave movie director to do "Fantastic Voyage II", in which a group of folks from Knots is shrunk in size and injected into a nice piece of curly maple, where they will see, first hand, the effects of different chisels, which have been sharpened in different ways, as they slice through the wood. Virtual reality could be used to let us rest on a nearby wood fiber, and and see the edge of the chisel veer off course, due to an unflattened back. Then of course, there are those darned Two Cherries and Hirsch chisels which were polished at the factory and have dubbed long edges. The virtual reality could let us fly around while in a movie made of a sequence of closely timed electron microscope photographs. Once we saw the effects of problems caused by poorly tuned chisels, we would understand these effects. Besides, this movie would really be exciting. There would be many close calls. So who will be get to be in the group that is injected into the wood. We'll need a crew leader. I suggest Boss Crunk. He don't take no guff from nobody. We'll need a couple of young good-looking woodworkers to be in the crew. Are there any young people on Knots? And we'll need a "love interest". I'll check with forestgirl to see if she's available. If she is, I'll find a good specialist in applying makup, and volunteer to play the young guy. We'll also need a troublemaker to add excitement. Do you know of any on Knots, or has management gotten them all under control?IF this is done right, the movie could be turned into a TV series that will knock LOST right off of the TV screen. It could spin off a Saturday morning cartoon for the young future woodworkers of the world. I can see it now, "The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles make a Chippendale Highboy". "The Wiggles sing, dance and visit Rob Millard's studio." "The Transformers restore a Duncan Phyfe sideboard".The possibilities are endless. There are vast amounts of money to be made in movies these days. The days of the swashbuckling pirate are long gone. Now we need movies about a swashbuckling woodworker who captures the hearts and minds of world - who brings high modern romance to the art of fine woodworking -- who portrays woodworkers to be the heroes and role-models that they are. LET'S GET THIS PROJECT GOING! After this movie comes out, high school kids will no longer dream of going to Princeton and Harvard. They will want to apprentice to a master woodworker!
It will be a brave and wonderful new world out there, and we will have created it!
Mel
PS - Wow! I just reread my message, and I am really stoked! This is exciting stuff. I am already planning the second movie which will feature a post-apocolyptic drama, starring Mel Gibson, about a war between the users of Eastern and Western style dovetail saws. And then maybe a movie using the music of "And thus spake Zarathrustra", which opens with monkeys playing with an obelisk in the form of a Lie Nielsen plane. Let's call it "3001".Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I would like to audition for the part of trouble maker. I have plenty of references, see the past threads on the Krenov plane for sale on Ebay.
All in all, a hilarious read.
Cheers,
Lee
Lee,
I have checked your references, and you are well qualified for the part of the trouble maker. So the part is yours if you are not in prison while the movie is being filmed. But watch out for Boss Crunk!Glad you got a kick out of my message. We have been around the "chisel back flattening" flagpole so often, that I just couldn't think of anything serious to add.
Y'all have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I'd like to play the mutant leader of the wood gremlin clan -- a population of tiny wicked beings that inhabit the pores of wood and cause all manner of trouble to woodworkers from warping to tearout to snipe etc.
Mel
You kill me! I'd like to play opposite Raquel Welch, please.
Walnutz
Walnutz,
If we get Raquel, we are going to have to teach her to cut dovetails like Frank Klaus!!!! Can you do that?
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Not as fast as Frank, but mine sure are purty! Besides, if Raquel volunteers, I'll cut em' for her! Man, did I have the hots for her about 30 years ago lol! Fantastic Voyage and 1 Million Years BC were my favorite movies back then, all because of her.
Walnutz
Walnutz,
That couldn't have been 30 years ago. That was only yesterday.
I wonder what she looks like now. I know that I haven't changed since then.
Mel
PS that poster of Raquel from 1 Million Years BC was a classic.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
PS that poster of Raquel from 1 Million Years BC was a classic.
That poster was the one that Tim Robbins tunneled out of prison behind in Shawshank Redemption (another classic). Gotta love the warden's line when he eyeballs the poster: How bout you Miss Fuzzy Britches?
If you build it he will come.
Mel,
Before Raquel can get her chisel close enough to the board to pare a dovetail, she'll have to flatten her front first.
Ray, about to shave his head and go into rehab, trying for sympathy in getting the "broken-down-old-has-been" role
9619,
That is a very clever way to look at a problem, imagine it on a much larger scale. I will always think of it in that regard from now on.
At the risk of high-jacking your idea, I have wanted to see a woodworking version of TLC's (formerly Discovery Channel) Biker Build Off.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Rob,
Your idea is much more practical than mine. Of course, I was just having fun. As a hobbyist, my work takes a long time, but I don't have deadlines. I can imagine the pressure can be tough on you guys who are building for customers and have deadlines. I can imagine pressure to cut a large number of boards to given dimensions, using a table saw. I can't imagine the pressure to cut exquisite marquetry designs, or to make 18th Century highboys using hand-tools under pressure of a deadline.I have sometimes thought of a different type of TV woodworking show, which is different than a take off on the Biker build off. It would be closer to "Iron Chef", in which three woodworkers are given a set of materials, and the requirement to build a piece of furniture, say a Queen Anne dining table. It is up to them to do the detailed design and carry it out. It would be fun, for example to see you, Richard Jones and Ray Pine go head to head, and see the differences and similarities in the outcome and in the techniques used. :-) Unfortunately, I believe that we are doomed to decades of reruns of "This Old House" and "Yankee Workshop".Thanks for writing.
Mel Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Rob,
Or a shop version of the cooking show "Hell's Kitchen", with Sgian as shop foreman. "YOU CALL THAT A DOVETAIL>!?! I'LL SHOW YOU A BLEEDIN' DOVETAIL!!" We'll call it "the Devil's Workshop".
Ray
Hey gents,
So..............is that a yes flatten the backs or no don't flatten the backs?
Jeff
Woodman,
You asked:
"So..............is that a yes flatten the backs or no don't flatten the backs?"As always in Knots, the answer to any question depends on who answers. One always gets a variety of answers. Maybe someday we'll do a thread on what to do with multiple answers which are different.My take on it is this. When you get a chisel, rub the back of it on a piece of sandpaper, and see if the inch closest to the edge is flat. Most of those who have the LN chisels say that there is no need to flatten them because they came flat. But if it were me, I'd check anyway. It only takes 30 seconds to check. Suppose you buy a set of Two Cherries or Hirsch or other chisels? I recommend you rub the back on some sandpaper and check the bottom inch. If they are flat, you are finished. If they are not flat, you can flatten them, as in Scary Sharp, or using your choice of abrasives, in a number of minutes. BUT DO YOU REALLY HAVE TO DO THIS? I really think that the answer depends on what you do with the chisels. My brother is a housebuilder. He doesn't worry about such things. He justs puts an 80 belt on the belt sander and gives em a lick on the bevelled side. If you are a fine woodworker who wants his dovetails to be perfect, and likes his tools to be "super-tuned", then what the heck. Spend 15 to 30 minutes and flatten the backs. It will take a lot less time to just flatten them and be done with it, than to read all of the messages in this thread.Personally, I flatten the backs on mine. It cant do much harm. Besides, I bought the Hirsch which were polished at the factory, so that the long edges are slightly rounded. So flattening the backs took care of that. You may ask: do you really need to do that? Well, Adam Cherubini recommends it. I really cant tell the difference, but then again, I am merely a hobbyist. I joke about using electron microscopes to check sharpness, but my approach is "sharp enough" is better than not sharp enough, and even better than "too sharp". Can a chisel be "too sharp"? The only cost to "too sharp" is too much time sharpening for the task at hand. If time isn't money, who cares?Hope that helps.
Have fun.
Mel
PS someone once asked me if they should use High Test gas in their car. I asked if it ran well on regular. They said yes. So I shrugged my shoulders. So the real question for you, on whether to flatten the backs is: do they work good enough for you the way they are? If you cant tell the difference, then ????PPS - I guess my real answer to you is: when you ask a question on Knots, don't expect a clear unequivocal answer. They rarely exist. The best thing to do is to read a lot, and figure out for yourself what seems to make sense, and then try that out.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel
That is one of the best replies I have read here for a long time!
Look, I think that there is a place for me in this movie. I'll do the part of the shrink - with all the voices talking to you and others, you really need me. :)
I can lean back in my chair, take another puff of my cigar, get to say insightful and empathic things like, "You have more screws loose than a Kunz plane", and especially, "you're not the sharpest chisel in the rack".
And, when asked as question, such as the one asked by Woodman ...
"So..............is that a yes flatten the backs or no don't flatten the backs?"
we will answer, "Mmm .. what do you think?..."
Of course, I am also having to deal with my own ghosts - there is the image of Sigmund who visits occasionally and says, "sometimes a chisel is just a tool".
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 3/2/2007 10:50 pm ET by derekcohen
Edited 3/2/2007 10:51 pm ET by derekcohen
Derek,
I think you have too much time on your hands if you are reading my long winded fables. I do appreciate your especially kind words. I enjoyed writing those replies. I write humor because it is much too intimidating for a hobbyist like myself to give advice on sharpening when there are so many experts (you may know a few :-)) who are lurking around here. Like you, I also got a kick out of woodman's posting of "So..............is that a yes flatten the backs or no don't flatten the backs?" after a couple of dozen messages in the thread. To solve problems such as this in the future, I am thinking of spending a month, going through the Knots archives when I retire, and then writing a five page Microsoft Word document entitled "The final word on all significant woodworking issues". The issues are pretty much obvious, because they come up so often. Wouldn't it be a hoot to write a unequivocal "definitive" answer to each. Actually, I may write three or four unequivocal definitive answers to some of them, put a number on each, and ask the reader to spin a wheel and see what number it lands on for the correct answer. Another thought I had was to write the article in a different mode. It would be fun to write three answers to each issue, one each in the styles of Ray Pine, Adam Cherubini and Boss Crunk, and then post a rebuttal to all three in the style of Tonton Macoute. I am leaning in this direction. I wrote about this idea in a post about a month ago, and got a number of positive responses.Once again, thanks for your reply. Your nice words will do nothing but encourage more of this behaviour. All of my life, I have wanted to be a stand-up comedian and a humor writer. Instead, I have spent an enjoyable and rewarding career as an engineering psychologist (Human Factors) at NASA. So my deeply repressed desire to write humor may occasionally spill out in Knots.You have the role of the psychologist in "Fantastic Voyage II: A journey deep into a slab of curly maple".
Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Jeff
My advice, after all the back and forth, would be that you should be your own guide on this. If you were my student, I'd instruct you on the proper way to sharpen, and tell you that as your skillset improves, let your work be your guide. If you are getting good results, and are happy with with the quality of work and the time between sharpenings, then keep working.
I don't resharpen until my tools tell me to. I have developed a relationship with all the tools that I work with every day. They tell me, by how they are working, when they need to be sharpened. When my scrapers make dust, I make a fresh hook. When my jack, try or jointer planes start chattering, or tearing out, or become "heavier" to push, I sharpen them. When the chisels are taking more effort to chop, pare, or slice, I rehone the edge.
My earlier advice on how to create the initial sharpening, including honing the bottom 1" of the back side of the chisel to a high degree of flatness, is so that YOU KNOW what the tool is really capable of. Then, you can decide for yourself if you need to continually return the tool to that sacred level of sharpness, or if much less will suffice.
You won't know what works best for you until you have a base line to compare it to. You've bought the best (or least one of the best manufacturers), why not start out with an extremely sharp edge and decide what needs to be?!
Walnutz
Walnutz,
So you have a relationship with your tools, and they speak to you when you are using them.Well, I'll do you one better than that. Mine talk to me even when I am not using them. Once in a while, I hear things like "'mon back, Big Daddy. Let's show some curly maple how to lose some weight."Heck, some people wake up in the middle of the night, being called by their fridge. Me, sometimes in the middle of the night, I hear my tools a callin' -- "We're lonely. Come on down! Let's show Sgian Dubh how it oughta be done!" Sometimes when I ignore them too long, they taunt me and offer challenges. Just last night I heard a voice from inside my shop shouting: "Let's write a new book. Tage Frid's trilogy is gettin' old." I ignored it, and it shouted again, "Come on, let's show Sam Maloof how to make a real rocking chair."Other people have tools with lasers on them. Mine are much better than that. They call me when they're lonely. They know how to hit my hot buttons. It's good to have a close relationship with your tools. Congratulations. :-)
Gotta go.
"I hear my tools a callin'!" (what a great name for a woodworking song! I can almost hear Johnny Cash singing it. Or maybe it's my bandsaw.)
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I feel better now that i know i'm not the only one who hears the voices......
I would suggest that you take your finest stone, grit sandpaper or whatever and hone a microbevel on it 5 - 10 strokes, turn it over and give the back 5 -10 lapping strokes then one swipe each side on a strop and try to pare some pine end grain. If it goes effortlessly and the wood is waxy-smooth and the growth-rings can clearly be seen and counted, you are done. Yay!
If this is still not good enough, put on some mood music (Vivaldi is nice) face your bench to the East so you will be in line with the Earth's rotation and at a nice right angle to magnetic North, get out your inspection grade granite surface plate and some 1,000,000 grit silicon carbide paper and have at it, chanting "Ooohow-shar-puareeee"
You should be finished by Spring. You will then have the sharpest chisels ever...until you chop one dovetail, then they'll dull back to approximately the level of sharpness as described in the first paragraph.
Be sure to take some pictures of the long ribbons of endgrain so we can see!
David C.
Dave,
"If this is still not good enough, put on some mood music (Vivaldi is nice) face your bench to the East so you will be in line with the Earth's rotation and at a nice right angle to magnetic North, get out your inspection grade granite surface plate and some 1,000,000 grit silicon carbide paper and have at it, chanting "Ooohow-shar-puareeee"
Isn't there some incense to be burned and special attire worn during such activity? I understand the molecules of the metal won't line up properly unless exactly 1,000,000 strokes in each direction are taken, using a mirror-finish bronze and stainless honing guide with a brazilian rosewood infill, french polished.
<end sarcasm mode>
Rich
Hey gents,
So..............is that a yes flatten the backs or no don't flatten the backs?
Jeff,
This is the conundrum that is Knots; you often get answers all over the map.
For what it is worth, I either have pieces in the gallery or I put my website link, so someone reading my posts can see my work and judge for themselves what, if any weight to give to my advise or opinion.
If the chisels were mine, I spend a minute or two to lap the backs flat and polish them to a mirror shine.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Rob
One of the wiser things stated in this thread. When the bear skin is hanging on the wall, you can't fault the hunter!
Hey, Rich:
Do you only sharpen one side of your steak knife? Perhaps only file every other tooth on a dovetail saw?? I love it when the salty types start ripping on the new guys around here, even when they're right.
After 20 or 30 years of making a living with your tools, you can decide for yourself to what level or degree a honed bevel, back, or waxy handle floats your boat. If you're so good that you can carve houndstooth dovetails out with a cereal spoon, then BRAVO!! Don't pass that crap out to the class, though. If they're taught the right way, then they can decide for themselves down the road what's good enough!
Hey Mel:
I'd like a crack at being the cranky jagoff in your new movie. I'll arm wrestle Lee for the part.
Cheers, to All
Jeff
Hey Jeff,Why don't you read before you shoot off your mouth? And if you want to call what I recommend as crap, you can stick it in your ear.I never advocated sharpening one side of the tool. I advocated flattening and preparing the surfaces correctly and rapidly to the point where the finest kind of work can be done. Beyond that point of preparation is obsessive waste of time and effort. THAT'S what a beginner needs to learn. Because the other way leads to exhaustion, frustration and failure.Got it?
Isn't there some incense to be burned and special attire worn during such activity? I understand the molecules of the metal won't line up properly unless exactly 1,000,000 strokes in each direction are taken, using a mirror-finish bronze and stainless honing guide with a brazilian rosewood infill, french polished.
<end sarcasm mode>
Rich
Hmmmmm...... Yeah, I got it. This is the crap I read. As usual, it's you making fun of the new guys who ask questions because they don't know. It's the same guys who usually last around here 30 or 60 days, and then leave because they're treated like morons for asking questions they don't know the answers to. Quite frankly, I couldn't give a rusty @#%^ what you think with all your <sarcasm mode> remarks aimed at whoever doesn't agree with world according to Rich14.
You can sure pitch! You'd better learn to catch!
YOU got it?
BTW What exactly were you recommending? Was it the 1 millions strokes, the molecular alignment, or the french polished rosewood infill honing guide? I got cornfused......
Edited 3/3/2007 1:06 am ET by JeffHeath
Jeff,
As usual, it's you making fun of the new guys who ask questions because they don't know. It's the same guys who usually last around here 30 or 60 days, and then leave because they're treated like morons for asking questions they don't know the answers to. Quite frankly, I couldn't give a rusty @#%^ what you think with all your <sarcasm mode>
Actually I was the one who started with the sarchasm. I'm not making fun of the new guys. I was making fun of the mentality that a simple skill like sharpening a chisel has become (to some) such a complicated "mystery" that new folks get all nervous about it and get frustrated. Spending lots of money on gizmos and getting their knickers in a twist wondering how to plow through all the conflicting advise.
My straightforward advise to the OP was to try the chisels out with the least amount of honing and see if they work fine. I then opined that I believe it is unnecessary to go to great lengths to polish the entire back of a chisel. Just near the cutting edge. As long as it is flat.
I was treated to a nice explaination of what a sharp edge is...(in case I forgot what I learned in shop class 35 years ago) and a whole bunch of dissenting opinions. Fine!
But for the woodworker who wants to go beyond Narcissus, staring at his lovely visage in the back of his mirror polished chisel or plane blade and who wants to actually sever some wood fibers, very little polishing beyond lapping the back to remove the wire edge through all the grits is required. The working edge will polish itself adequately in doing this.
Oops guess there I go again with the sarchasm...
Best Regards,
David C
Edit: Corrected spelling and Thinkin'
Edited 3/3/2007 8:51 am ET by DCarr10760
David
I read the thread, and I think that almost nobody disagree's with your point of view at all. I didn't see where anyone thought that polishing the entire back was necessary.
I teach a few beginning and intermediate classes in my shop to 3 to 6 people at a time on Saturdays. Of course, like anywhere else, we have to talk about sharp tools. Today just so happens to be "Introduction to Hand Tools Saturday". I've got a young man bringing in his brand new shiny set of LN bench chisels. We'll have those puppies singing in under 15 minutes, and the bottom inch will be polished on the backs.
Sarcasm is fine around here. Hell, everybody knows that I've thrown plenty of it around. But, your sarcasm was light hearted, and really not directed to dig deep, in my opinion, unlike someone else's. If we chase all the new blood out of here, we'll just be sitting at our computers chatting with each other. That'll get kind of boring.
I'm a lurker at a few other chat sites. We, being the KNOTS COMMUNITY, are not thought of very highly in other parts. What I read is that we're mean and unwilling to help. That's not a tag I wish to maintain.
Alright, it's off to Woodcraft for their 15% off sale.
Cheers,
Jethro
What we DON'T need here is a self-appointed, holier-than-thou, forum morals monitor.I have tried to help others as much as anyone here. In this thread, I prefaced my remarks by saying they were not intended to hurt anyone's feelings.I don't need you to tell the forum that certain sarcasm is acceptable, while mine is not. I don't need you to preach that we have misbehaved because people in other forums think the Knots forum is "mean" and that comments such as mine are any part of such atmosphere. Go cry your fake crocodile tears somewhere else.I don't need you to pontificate that knowledge of "old salts" is inappropriate for beginners and that novices should be allowed to just try to work as they like and decide what is best for them. That's crazy. Yeah, don't tell anyone how to correct a bad habit because that would impair their self esteem and run counter to the educational idea that everyone must be told he or she is "special."Take your artifical do-gooder campaign somewhere else. You are way out of line with your pompous, self-righteous, hyper-critical attitude.
Come on, Rich! Is that all you got?? I know you've got more. You must be having a slow morning. The morning coffee must be just right. Not bitter enough, because I've seen you really lay into people around here in the past. Surely, you can do better.
I did enjoy being called, hmmm....let me check........ oh yeah, "a do-gooder!"
Shhh. Don't tell my kids.
I knew my post to you would rattle your cage like this. You're so predictable. I'll bet if we went back and looked at your last 50, 80% of the time you're ripping someone, preaching about how your way is the only way. Sooooooo sorry to step on those ultra sensitive toes of yours.
This has been fun. I've got 4 young, eager beavers who wish to be led down the wrong path of wastefulness, wasting away with the 1,000,000 stroke sharpening method. They'll be here in 20 minutes. I'll try and not to dull their senses too much for you.
Cheer up, Rich. Spring is coming soon enough!
Jeff
Jeff,
Arm wrestling.....Hmmmmm. That sounds tiring. How about we each start off with a bottle of (insert your favorite liquor here) and see who passes out first? Sounds like much more fun. Last man standing gets the part.
Lee
Oh, boy:
You may wanna take that one back. You just picked the one thing that I'm really good at! The big contest at my house every year at the 4th of July party is to see if anyone can drink more beer than me. I've had to build a really big trophy case for all those victory steins! Well, now that everyone knows what a lush I am.....
See ya,
Jeff
OK, you win. But I still get Raquel.
Jeff,
I'll take that as an invitation to "Heath-Fest '07"
See ya there!
Lee
P.S. As far as Raquel goes, I guess I'm just a bit too young to appreciate anything she did (starred in). Now, if you said Heather Locklear.......
It's funny you mention "HeathFest '07". With Lee Grindinger closing up shop and moving south, I was actually thinking about having a gathering of the mindless. I guess I'll see if there would be any interest. I'm in Crystal Lake, Illinois. If you're not coming, though, forget it. <g>
Jeff
Jeff,
I'll be there with bells on! Illinois, huh? Any good places to buy lumber cheep up there? Maybe I'll drive the truck and come home with some more wood that will sit around for 8-10 years waiting (screaming) for me to use it on a "special" project.
My wife comes in the shop all the time whilst in the middle of some creative craft-type project and asks "So, do you have any spare wood?"
What the hell is spare wood? I've never seen any in my life! That's precious stuff, I tell her. And she says "Well, why don't you do something with it then?" And I say, "OK, I'm working on it." And still it multiplies.....
BTW, where south is Lee G. heading? A get together sounds like a good idea. It would be really cool to get to meet all the people I abuse/ get abused by here.
Good luck with the class today,
Lee
Spare wood? What's that. No such thing. A few years ago, my son, then 12 (now almost 17) and his buddies raided my wood shed to build blinds to hide behind. The property next to mine is 37 acres of pasture, and the guy who owns it let's the boys ride 4-wheelers, snowmobiles, and such... as well as allowing them to build a paint ball arena. Well, the boys took about 200 bf or so of cherry and maple, and NAILED it up out in the field, and shot paintballs all over it. I almost dropped right there of a heart attack! That was the last time I was asked about spare wood!
Lee G. told me he was moving to the island of Dominica, wherever the hell that is. He had Montanafest a couple years ago, and we had an absolute ball. I certainly wouldn't mind a gathering. I definately have the space for it, so we'll see.
Talk to you soon.
Jeff
Jeff,
Your story reminds me of a few years back right after Rick Hearne and Bill Groff split ways in Pennsylvania (Groff & Hearne). I was up there visiting my brother and stopped at both places to "stock up". Rick Hearne was just getting his place off the ground, he had bought a very old farm of some sort and was rehab. the barn for a store/showroom. My brother and I walked in and he had a wall about 16 feet high X 30 feet long that he had nailed some 14" WIDE CLEAR CHERRY to for siding. I asked him politely what the hell he had done that for and he said "I wasn't about to go to home depot and buy pine siding when I had all of this cherry lying around". I almost passed out.
Lee
Absolutely flatten the backs!At least on the LN's. Sharpening is a skill that needs to be learned. If your happy with 400 grit polish and it suffices your work, fine.But sharpening is a skill and as I alluded to the 400x power, you might think your getting it beyond perfect only to find much room for improvement.
Now do I use that 400x power each time? Nope, in fact never again unless extremely convenient. It was just an eye opening lesson for me.Now by me giving each surface a bit more attention a few more seconds I can get a superior edge.BTW I'm using LNs and love them! Took me about 10-30 minutes to shine of the back of each chisel from the 400 grit they delivered at. That is tough steel! I did my nice old Stanley's in 1/4 the time! And those are the 20-30 year old USA made "professional" models and hold an edge admirably.HTHBro. Luke
Great Post!I had the opportunity to put one of my "highly polished" chisels under a 400x magnification. This was a chisel I spent about 30 minutes polishing the back to over 8000 (yea I don't don't have much of a "night life"<G>) I was quite proud of how it looked but quickly shrunk as all the defects glared back at me! Bottom line was it cut ok, b ut could be better. I spent another 1/2 hour giving it more attention and 2nd look was much better.While a 400x magnification may strike you as absurd it was like a new pair of glasses. Since then I have gotten more critical of my technique and am getting better results.Thing is.. this sort of detail doesn't take much longer. It takes more patience at each grit and now I just give it a 100 more passes after I'm sure I'm done and that seems to do it.BTW Please no remake of Fantastic Voyage. I've yet to see a remake with all the FX live up to the original cheesy presentations.Thanks,Bro. LukeBro.Luke
BroLuke,
Point well taken. Sharpen with each grit, then go another minute on it.
A little patience.I took up "chip carving" last year as a nice diversion. Tonight, I noticed that my knife was a bit rounded, rather than straight, so I "flattened" the edge, and then I sharpened it. I took more time than necessary (or is it "usual") at each grit, exactly as you described. When I went back to do some more carving, the result was much better than before I re-worked the knife. The cuts were quite crisp. Sharpening knives is new to me. It is a bit different than chisels and plane blades. But the theory is the same. I agree with your analysis and conclusion. Thanks for the nice words about my post. I enjoyed writing it. But I believe that if five of us from Knots did a "re-make" of Fantastic Voyage, it would be darned cheesy. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Guys,I suppose if you want to examine metal cutting edges under microscopes, that's fine, whatever floats your boat. But if want to get any woodworking done, this is pure craziness! I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings, but achieving a metal surface satisfactory for the finest work you can do does not require the kind of obsessive polishing you're describing. It only takes a few minutes, really, for the initial preparation of the face of a chisel or plane iron, and a bare fraction of that each time the bevel needs touching up.Any minute I expect Sgian Dubh to come swooping in here with his classic tale of the gizzled old journeyman who suffers no fools and the novice whom he teaches to keep his tools "shairp" and not waste a second doing it.Rich
There is one reason that I can think of for taking your chisel sharpening to as high a level as possible. I sharpen chisels up to an 8000 waterstone (equivalent to 2000 grit Scary Sharp sandpaper), and don't use a microbevel. I have found that it takes less time in total to maintain a chisel at that level than if I sharpened to, say, a 2000 grit waterstone. I admittedly don't see any difference in chisel performance between the two. What I do see is that when I notice that the chisel performance does start to decline, it takes me less time to bring it back to where I started from if I initially went all the way to an 8000 waterstone than if I stopped sharpening at an earlier stage. When I feel that it's time to redo the chisel edge, I bring it back to my 8000 grit waterstone, take a few strokes, and go back to work. If I stop at a 2000 grit stone, when I need to redo the chisel edge, I go back to the 2000 grit stone, but it takes me more time on the 2000 stone to get things back to where they were.This does probably have something to do with the issue of microteeth being smaller as you work the chisel on finer grit waterstones/sandpaper. So although 2000 grit microteeth may cut wood as easily as 8000 grit microteeth, the smaller microteeth are more likely to be easier to maintain due to the smaller gaps between microteeth.
will,Anything that works.My previous remarks were directed at the process of laboriously spending long amounts of time, adding another 100 strokes at this grit and another 100 strokes at that grit, and . . . well you get the point.I have found that one of the most serious impediments to doing good woodworking is the "fear" of needing to sharpen. Anyone who has not yet learned to quickly and efficiently put a razor-sharp edge on a tool tends to use the tool much too long, putting off stopping and honing, because the proces of sharpening is so time-consuming and error-prone.But once he or she learns how to do it quickly, the tool becomes a joy to use and learning/competence shoots way up. There is nothing like a really sharp tool. And there is nothing like being able to work all day with it like that, because you can very quickly and painlessley keep it that way.I was installing cabinets on a job once while a vinyl layer was doing his work. He was REALLY good. There was a LOT of complicated cutting and special inlays. He had a 15 ft straight edge, the longest I had seen, until then.He honed his knife AFTER EVERY SINGLE CUT. He had a small stone in his apron and as soon as he finished a cut, his hands went into the apron pocket and got the stone. Maybe 3-4 swipes on each side of the blade. It didn't seem to occupy any extra time as he moved into position for whatever he was doing, he was finished. The blade was surgical-sharp to my eye.I asked him about it because I had never seen anyone be that "meticulous" before. He said it wasn't until he learned to do that, that his skill level went from very good to master craftsman. He said the vinyl was very abrasive and that if he were to take a second cut, without honing, the quality of the cut would be off. Not by much, but enough to make a difference in seaming the vinyl. Well, I can tell you, his straight-edge must have been absolutely straight and he must have been absolutely right about the quality of the cut, because the seams in that vinyl floor were invisible. And his honing technique was just about instantaneous.Rich
Rich
I absolutely 100% agree with everything you said in your last post.
Have a good day.
Jeff
Jeff,'nuff said.Take care.Rich
Rich, I share your joy, having bought or GC'd a zillion $ of work . It is an absolute joy to watch a master at his or her craft on the corporate side (but ya can't comment much) with what we know on the personal side. Paddy
Mel,
In lieu of a rerun of "Also Sprach Zarathustra", howsabout P.D.Q. Bach's "Iphegeniaia in Brooklyn"?
You are over the top, man.
I'd volunteer to be your movie's sound effects man, but my hearing has been shot by the incessant screaming of electrons, as they are severed from their orbits around their O2 molecules, every time I swing my chisel blade thru the air too fast.
Regards,
Ray
Ray, Rob, Rich & Derek,
Ah knew someone would give uz a slap about ruler-sharpening chisel backs..... :-)
Of course, the "back bevel" when getting polish on just the last 3 or 4 mm at the chisel tip is hardly worthy of the name. In practice there is no discernible bevel, only enough "tip" is made of the chisel to enable a polish at that last 3mm without having to polish the rest of the (already flattened) chisel-back.
The important thing is the effect on the chisel's use. I've now pared a lot of DT and finger-joint bottoms (i.e. end grain) using 2 skew and 2 square-ended chisels sharpened in this manner. I can detect no difficulty in getting the chisel back to guide the paring action in order to achieve flatness of what is pared.
To all intents and purposes the chisel back behaves as if flat - but I didn't have to polish the whole of the back just to get the polish on that last bit where it intersects with the bevel to make the cutting edge.
Whatever method you employ to polish the last few millimetres of the back will result in a similar "lack" of flatness. The ruler method is just a consistent way to polish tip-only. As long as that ruler is very thin and as far away as possible from the chisel end when used to "tip up" the chisel, there is no issue.
Or so I allege.
Lataxe the heretic
Edited 3/1/2007 5:34 pm ET by Lataxe
Lataxe,
I agree with those who have cautioned against the "ruler trick" to create a tiny "back bevel" when sharpening chisels.
The technique is valid for plane irons, but with chisels, except for carving chisels, is bad practice. The chisel needs to be dead flat on its face all the way to the sharp junction with the bevel. Otherwise, it can't be accurately used for paring to a reference mark.
Rich
David
I'll politely disagree back. A sharp edge is the intersection of two polished surfaces, not one. If the bevel is honed to a high polish of 8000, and the back is 400, each and every scratch is just a like a seration. Those little scratches create high and low spots in the metal, which can break off, and do, causing the edge to fail much more quickly.
Of course, you could use the chisel as is from the factory without doing anything to it. It'll cut. It'll chop. Not very well, but it will suffice. The reason why we hone the edges of our cutting tools is to improve performance. By not honing the back to the same "grit" as the bevel, you are working with a tool that is not doing all that it is capable of, and the edge simply will not last as long. Yeah, it'll work. Just not as well as it could have.
Polish the front and back for optimal performance.
That's the camp I'm from.
Walnutz
Walnutz,
I have no argument at all, in fact I completely agree. A sharp edge is the intersection between two polished edjes.
Where we differ is in how far back these edges must extend back from the working edge, if you are using a micro-bevel then you are fully polishing only 1/32-inch or so of the bevel on the front. I'm just suggesting that you need do no more to the back.
If through each grit when honing, when you draw your wire edge you take a couple of passes on the back to remove the burr all the way through stropping you will have automatically polished the back, but only very near the cutting edge, which is all that matters.
While it's fine to polish the back fully, it's unnecessary to do so to make a keen edge.
That's my only point. I have the LN chisels (including the new 1-incher) and five strokes on some 2000 grit paper front n back and as many on a charged strop and they take and hold an admirable edge.
Best Regards,
David C
I agree with David...but...I also agree with Walnutz. Simple because they really don't disagree with each other.
I know shiney is nice. And it is "necessary" for obtaining the sharpest of sharp edges. A question would be whether that sharp in a bench chisel is really necessary?
Another something I want to plop out there. And that regards the time and effort for no or marginal gain. To polish the entire, or even a significant portion, of the back prior to use is a waste of time and effort.
Use the bloody things. Each time you sharpen and rub the back of the chisel on [insert your favorite sharpening medium here] you are polishing the back. So just use them and keep them sharp. Who knows. After realizing your house is full of furniture one day, you may also notice the backs of those chisels are nice and polished.
Take care, the cranky bugger
Mike
I'm in agreement with you. I have no desire to waste time farting around polish metal just to see my mug shot reflected back at me. I can do that while I brush my teeth. I have simply noticed that my edges retain themselves better over the long haul when I pay an extra 5 to 10 minutes polishing them on the initial sharpening. After that, it's all gravy, and the edge lasts considerably longer for me than having not done it.
Walnutz
Absolutely. On all accounts.
Love the brush the teeth thing...<g>Might have to use it in a sharpening thread one day!
Take care, Mike
Well, chalk it up to a misunderstanding. I never meant to say that the entire back of the chisel needs to be a mirror finish. I usually am able to get 3/4" to 1" to stay flat on the granite, so that's what I polish on the back of the chisel. It would be just as effective to polish 1/8", but I'm not coordinated enough to rub 1/8" of a chisel off the edge of a slab of granite with sand paper glued to it, and still keep it flat. I guess I'll need to work on my hand-eye coordination to get that feat down pat!
Perhaps we were saying the same thing in french and spanish. The back needs to be attended to. Attend to as much, or little, as your balance and coordination allow.
Walnutz
Walnutz makes good points.
I would expect one thing in particular from a new LN chisel, and that is it would have a flat back without rounded shoulders. I would also expect that it could be used tolerably well out of the box. But I agree that this will be far from its optimum performance. I wonder what grit was used to flatten the back - 400?
I recently received a set of Blue Spruce dovetail chisels. These are easily usable out-of-the-box. Still I honed them on a leather strop plus green rouge - enough to create a shine about 1-2mm from the blade's back edge (as well as the microbevel on the hollow grind). It is not necessary for the back to be shiny, just flat. It is important that the two sides of the bevel edge meet at the same grit.
David (Lataxe), you are naughty, naughty, naughty. You know that you must not use a backbevel (via "Ruler Trick") on a chisel back. It will cut, but you cannot cut accurately as the bevel is not in line with the back of the blade. For example, if you place the edge in a knife line (such as when paring dovetails) and push downward, the blade will be forced (very) slightly forward as the back "hits" the new cut.
Here it is done the old fashioned way (a bit extreme, but this is explained and excussed in the article).
Lapping the Backs of Blades
Regards from Perth
Derek
my L-N were sharp enough out of the box to go right to work. I just started using them and worried about sharpening them as needed.
the first time each was sharpened I spent about 2 mins on my waterstones polishing the backs (I say polish because all but the 1/2" chisel were dead flat already) and then sharpened as i typically would.
I think it is a waste of time and a useably sharp edge to put much if any effort into these until they need it...
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