Okay I admit it. My HS English teacher would often respond to my youthful outbursts by naming one of his favorite poets:
TS Eliot
I called LN to complain that the 4 1/2 handplane I bought wasn’t useable. I can’t grasp the handle because my hand won’t fit in the opening.
LN Customer service: “TS Eliot”
No plans to extend the handle for knuckle draggers.
Measure the girth of your palm. Mine is 10.5 inches. I don’t recommend buying an LN plane without holding it first. It sure is perty tho’.
Does anyone else have this problem? Can you recommend a plane maker who is larger hands friendly?
Regards,
Ken
“Do as you would be done by.” C.S. Lewis
Replies
Ken,
Two ideas for you to consider:
1) Use a three-finger grip and point your index finger along the iron in the direction you will be planing; or
2) Make a larger/longer tote that will fit your hand -- you are a woodworker, after all ;-) . Nothing says you can't customise the plane to fit your needs.....
.
Tschüß!
James
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."
-- A.C. Clarke
One is what i've been doing, just call me three-fingered jack...
Two-That cherry handle is just too pretty to replace.
My point really was to let large handed people know that they should really hold one in their hands and use one if possible rather than buying sight unseen...and to mention my one and only interaction with LN Customer Service. To me this was an opportunity for them to make a better product and to make more money. Feedback is a gift. World class companies treat it as such and create barriers to entry for their competition by raising their customer sat to such a high level that no one wants to play in their space. LN hasn't convinced me they value me as a customer. A new fangled swiss plane maker might though. They have an unusual design and an open handle for the ham fisted and their planes are cheaper.
Regards,
Ken
"Do as you would be done by." C.S. Lewis
Ken, I'm guessing you are not going to convince many around here that LN provides poor customer service as so many here have personally expereinced just the opposite. LN makes quality products and stands behind them. In my many dealings with them, I've always been delighted with their service.
As for the plane handles, Stanley never saw fit to offer oversized models, nor did Sargent, nor did Miller's Falls, and on and on. Why do you suppose that is? I mean if there is money to be made there, why has no one gone there in the 150 years of metal planes of this style? Just because a customer requests it, does not automatically make it a reasonable request. If I asked Powermatic to paint my saw pink and they said they weren't interested, would I be justified in proclaiming on the net that Powermatic doesn't care about customers?
Your line of logic means LN should stop selling cryogenized plane blades. Plane makers didn't sell those 150 years ago.
Regards,
Ken
"Do as you would be done by." C.S. Lewis
Uh, no, Ken, I don't think you are able to follow my line of logic if that's what you think.
I'm certain that steel and plane makers of 150 years ago could not produce minus 100 to minus 300 degree Farenheit temperatures necessary to eliminate the austenite from the steel.
Plane makers of that era could, however, shape wooden handles and produce bolts to attach them to a plane sole if there was an an appreciable demand for such handles. The fact that none of them ever did it strongly suggests that your wish is impractical and idiosyncratic.
See the Time article (link below). It states in the past 150 years European stature has increased 20 cm (8 inches). In my experience people who are taller tend to have longer fingers and broader palms. My sample group is athletes that I have played sports against. Per the article Auxology is the study of human growth. The Dutch now have the tallest average male height at just over 6 ft. Which is my height, so I am 8-11 inches taller than the average males the orginal 4s were designed for depending on which country one uses for reference.
I bet Europeans and Americans are by far the largest purchasers of L-N planes and they are using a design that is 150 years old per your comment, even though average heights have increased on both continents approximately 8 inches.
I wonder why Japanese automakers just don't sell their Asian cars here? Because we don't fit in them. They design for the American market now. Ask Ford how that's working out for them.
Why don't they just sell one glove size? I could just stick 3 fingers in and let the other one hang out. Duh. $5 dollars for a pair of gloves and I expect them to fit. But I should spend $300 dollars for a plane that doesn't? Yeah and its colder this winter because of global warming and eskimos really do need freezers...
Here's the Time article link:
http://www.vwl.uni-muenchen.de/ls_komlos/covereu.html
Regards,
Ken
"Do as you would be done by." C.S. Lewis
Well, through the magic of averages and making sure to set the bar as far back in time as possible (e.g., ignoring the lack of significant change since 1945), you've convinced me. You have a million dollar idea there. I think you ought to start a plane making business to compete with LN. You'll no doubt clean up having recognized this huge unserved market. Good luck to you, sir.
Ken,
Out of curiousity, what exactly did the customer service rep at LN tell you?
Lee
As far as L-N not valuing you as a customer, I'm not sure it's reasonable for you to expect them to make one tote for your hand- it falls under "Custom" work and they aren't in business for that. If by "girth", you mean "around your hand at the palm" as opposed to what the other poster thinks you meant, my hand is a bit larger than yours and the L-N planes are fine with a three-fingered grip. The index finger points forward and steadies the plane, just like using a handsaw. The Veritas planes do have a larger tote and they fit my hand better, too. If you decide to go with Veritas planes instead, I doubt that you'll have any problem with the build quality or the way they work- they're really good tools. For what it's worth, I made a comment about the tote to Deneb, who does the demonstrations for L-N at the WoodWorking Shows and he held his hand up to compare. At least as big as mine and he spends a lot more time than anyone I know of using hand planes. If I have a bad experience with someone's CS department, I usually ask for a supervisor and let that one know what happened. You are the customer and if the first person does something that bothers you, it's time to move up the food chain.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Ken,
I have hands as large and I have no problem. I wonder what sort of grip you use? I wrap three fingers around the tote and my index finger rests on the frog, similar to the way I hold a handsaw.
My hand is pretty loose on the tote but I am not aware of any discomfort.
Now when I use my No. 2....
David C
Ken,
If your palm is 10.5 inches wide, you ought to be in the circus or the NBA, your pick. You ought to be able to palm a VW Beetle. It's amazing you can get your hands through the ends of your sleeves. You should be able to swim real fast with those flippers. ETC.
Ok, I just remembered girth is all the way around, not just width. Width of my palm at it's widest point is roughly 4 1/4 inches. Depending on the relative fatness of our hands, probably not too much different. Try pointing your index finger along side the blade. I can't really get all four fingers on the handle of my LN 4 1/2 either (or you could try your hand at making a new handle).
I actually went with the 4 1/2 LN over the 4 because of the better fit for my hand. You could try a Veritas plane. I think their handles are more 'vertical and less curvey' although they have a metal piece that closes the loop, running from the body of the plane to the top of the handle (not real technical I know).
Handle fit is a very personal thing. You really should 'try before you buy' if at all possible. If not, especially if you've got big mitts, you might have issues. Before you give up on the plane, try the 3 finger approach. My index finger seems to end up on top of the front part of the handle.
Matt
Jeez Ken,
You had better stay away from my LN #1 (said very much in jest). I would try a three finger grip! Quite frankly if you can't use an LN, then I doubt if you will find a plane with a significantly larger tote.
Regarding the #1, it was a purely superfluous purchase (actually a Christmas gift). Its the perfect size for my now 7 year old daughter, and I have used it as a block plane with my hand wrapped around the tote without even trying a one finger grip! I read (believe it was Clarence in FTJ) that in days of old, older carpenters, with their arthiritic hands, would use a #1 in this manner.
T.Z.
Ken,
I just picked up a LN 41/2 a few weeks ago and have used it several times so far with very good success. I never noticed that I was using the "three finger grip" but I have been. Now I don't have large hands at least I don't think so. I wear extra large gloves but that doesn't mean anything. they just feel better to me. I can't get my hands out of my extra large shirts without unbuttoning the cuffs. You know something I just might have big hands. My point is use the thing if you can or send it back if you can't. And you are right Ken, it is a nice piece.
RGJ
Edited 3/5/2007 7:49 pm ET by RGJ
They are great and I will add several more to my collection. I might even convice SWMBO that they should be on a shadow box on the wall. (That way I can keep them in the house on display).
3 Fingered Jack
;-)
Regards,
Ken
"Do as you would be done by." C.S. Lewis
Ken
You're the first one I've ever heard complain about their customer service. I've dealt with them several times, and have nothing but 5 stars to give to them.
I too have very large hands. I also own quite a few of their planes. I rest my forefinger on the frog, and away I go.
You could make new handles, as it doesn't take long. I replaced the crappy beech handle on my Stanley scrub with a shop made cherry one. Fits my hand perfect, and is taller for more leverage when scrubbin'. Oh, yeah, and it makes the scrub look less out of place with all those purty handles LN puts on em'.
Jeff
I can recommend a plane maker who is hands friendly....
However, you should bear in mind that the 41/2 size of Stanley /Bedrock and therefore L. Nielsen does not allow much room for all the fingers anyway.
Stop ponceing about, any woodworm worth his salt should be able to churn out a handle to suit his own hand , cherry or no cherry. Come up with something exciting and Uncle Thomas might give you a present. Think about it. (,)Philip Marcou
Edited 3/6/2007 4:02 am by philip
Hi Philip,
I may just make my own handle. Uncle Thomas comes down this way to our local Woodcraft store now and then. I'll keep an eye peeled for his next visit. The handle/tote may be the cheapest part of the product and I'd pay extra to have a choice of size for it. They offer two types of wood for it. Why not expand the options. Let me see I'm in business people want to give me money for a new feature, naw too innovative.
I presumed a visceral reaction give the overall quality of the product. Just found it interesting that they ignored my complaint about handle size. Jack Welch made GE great by getting people to listen to their customers and reacting to it.
Regards,
Ken
"Do as you would be done by." C.S. Lewis
Agree with your overall line of reasoning, but respectfully disagree about Jack the Great. He had wonderful publicists, but at one time I did significant business with three of his units -- and later worked with a company that was a customer of a fourth unit. Must say, they did not pay much attention to customers at all. In fact, the term "abusive" would not be unreasonable. What they had was large market share and one of the world's great brands.I called this to Jack's attention on a talk show once. He changed he subject and took another caller.
I'll agree perhaps not the best to work with B 2 B, but what is it that made them a great brand?
Regards,
Ken
"Do as you would be done by." C.S. Lewis
Ken:
What made them a great brand was that they were once a leader, and were certainly the early giant, with good products for the time. They did lots of advertizing, their stuff was everywhere, and it was pretty good to very good. The brand is almost as recognized as Coke or Nike. Brand awareness in a positive light, the trust people put in brands, is immensely valuable. There is a name for it, "Brand Equity," and it can add very big dollars to the transaction price in acquisitions.
Their products are still in the good to very good range for the most part. However, customer service is very poor these days. I have never dealt with Jack the Great, but I did have dealings with one of his direct reports (a contemporary of Nardelli who made Big Orange into such a service-oriented organization...hahaha), and the amounts we bought from them were rather large. If we felt abused, I would venture to guess that a good many more also felt that way.
Edited 3/6/2007 5:15 pm ET by Joe Sullivan
I am able to compare a number of different smoother totes.
There is the LN #4 1/2A...
and a Spier, both of which also require a three-finger grip ...
View Image
And then there is the LV Bevel Up Smoother
View Image
and the Marcou S15 ..
View Image
.. both with a full four-finger grip.
All are a pleasure to use. Just different. Viva la difference!
Regards from Perth
Derek
Hi Derek,
You have some handsome planes here. But I wonder if the first plane you show--with the bronze body--is actually an LN #4? I didn't think LN made a #4 1/2 in bronze. If they did, it'd be difficult to stop once it started downhill!
Best,
BruceR
I didn't think LN made a #4 1/2 in bronze.
Hi Bruce
That is the LN Anniversary #4 1/2 smoother, made for my 25th wedding anniversary. No kidding! OK, I am kidding .. sort of .. LN made 500 of these planes to celebrate their 25th anniversary. Since this coincided with our 25th wedding anniversary, my wife bought one for me.
Here is another shot of it.
View Image
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
That is a nice tool. I bought a 4 1/2 a few weeks back made of iron. Mine would look kind of pedestrian next to yours. Yours is a show piece. My 40th anniversary is coming up in September so please ask your wife what my wife should buy for me. Your wife has excellent taste by the way. You my friend are a lucky man.
RGJ
RGJ
They #4 1/2A is indeed pretty enough for show, but none of my tools are treated this way - all are users. Many are works of art, but they are still just tools.
It strikes me that a 40th wedding anniversary demands something special. Perhaps a plane by Anderson or Marcou?
Regards from Perth
Derek
Haw haw Derek,
"It strikes me that a 40th wedding anniversary demands something special. Perhaps a plane by Anderson or Marcou".
Strikes me that I should have a word with your wife, about a 50 percent down payment now , adjusted for inflation over the interim....Philip Marcou
Hi Derek,
Three things: thank you for explaining the existence of the bronze LN #4 1/2; congratulations on #25; and, that's a fabulous gift from your wife.
Best,
BruceR
hi --
funny, i had the same problem with one of the first planes i ever bought, a ww2 era stanley #4. i have very wide hands too, and the grip was too tight.
i reshaped the upper inside portion of the handle with a rasp, chisels, a shave, and sandpaper -- while i was at it i reshaped other parts of the handle to better fit my grip style. a couple of hours later, it fit my hand perfectly, and really feels "mine" now. after refinishing it looks great too, but that's gravy.
just a thought for you, lest you give up on a great company like LN.
Kenshep,
I suspect your having a problem because your not following LN's suggestions. Your supposed to hone the blade before use. That means you test for sharpness on the back of your hand....thereby removing some of the forrestation and improving the goodness of fit of your hand to the handle...voila!
Seriously, I'm surprised because my hand is the same size and the 4.5 fits the best of any..
Sent the discussion number and the forum url to L-N at:
[email protected]
Perhaps they can add value to the discussion.
Regards,
Ken
"Do as you would be done by." C.S. Lewis
I doubt TLN himself will make an appearance.
I gotta admit I don't see the issue here. You are the first person I have heard complain about the bench plane handle size. That said...
Lee Valley makes a tote which has been slammed because it is so large. Consider one of their planes as an option.
But if it is "I'd rather fight than switch," just make a tote. It isn't hard nor really very time consuming. Probably not much more time involved than reading and writing posts here. Save the original tote should you ever sell the plane. Simple fix.
Take care, Mike
FWIW, given how common it is to encounter Stanley totes with the characteristic crack through the middle, I wonder whether practical engineering constraints weigh against significantly larger handles. As the handle gets higher, the leveraging force on the tote, base, and attachment points is increased significantly. I'm no physic's major, but I recall the wonder of levers as far as multiplying force. In short, given the forces applied to planes (especially those with wide blades - 4 1/2, 7, etc. - or that are meant to take thicker shavings - 40, jack etc.) a larger tote might well demand a significant redesign of the plane as opposed to say just a taller piece of wood and a longer bolt.
Well what started out as a tongue in cheek post (I really like L-N planes and do plan to buy more) has certainly created some interest and for some vehement responses. So as I said I did forward the link to the discussion on to L-N. They have responded and indicated that my issue was one that the service rep had not dealt with before. Verbal tone doesn't translate in the written word.
Regards,
Ken the Grendel
"Do as you would be done by." C.S. Lewis
Edited 3/9/2007 10:29 am ET by kenshep
Ah, what a hoot trolling is eh?
Here's hoping someone in your life "feigns" indignation in such a way as to besmirch your reputation. Good times, good times.
Hi Samson,
You're right. Kenshep is a troll. I clicked on his name, clicked on "Ignore Posts," and he no longer exists.
Best,
BruceR
I think I'll do the same. Thanks.
Two comments:
1) Maybe I'm just dense this morning. I don't get the "TS Elliot" reference. (Am I the only one??)
2) Although several folks responding in this thread have suggested making a larger tote, and you imply that you think LN should offer a larger tote as an option, I'm not sure that would work too well. The tote on a 4 1/2 is pretty much at the far rear of the sole and goes all the way up to the iron and adjusting mechanism. I don't see how you could make it much larger without redesigning the plane (i.e., making it into a #5), or cantelevering it off the back end, screwing up the geometry of the plane. (I would think the force vector would be too far back from the blade and would mess up the balance in use.)
3) OK, I lied -- three comments. I have several planes that I use regularly that have even smaller totes. My rabbet plane comes to mind as the one I use most often. While my hands are not quite as big as yours (just under 10"), I have no problem using the smaller-handled planes. In fact, they are some of my favorite. You just develop a different grip that I think actually improves your control of the tool -- kind of a wrap-your-hand-around-it grip. Now that I think about it, I'm not sure I ever use a plane with all four fingers inside the tote. I never thought about it before, but I just pick each plane up however it fits best and is comfortable to control in use. I'm not even sure that planes/totes are even designed to be held with a full fisted grip.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
"T.S. Eliot was born in St. Louis, Missouri, but he lives now in England and is studying to become an Englishman," the officer said, tapping tobacco into his pipe. "The 'T.S.' stands for 'tough ####.' You read Eliot's Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock, what one English Prof. called 'the first poem of the modern movement,' and if you don't understand it, 'tough ####.' All I can say is that's some love song."
Ahhh. I was going too deep, trying to pronounce "T.S. Elliot" in various ways so it sounded like --- ? Then I was racking my brain for some obscure connection to his poetry. Nothin.
I guess the "Tough s***, Elliot" makes particularly good sense if your first name happens to be Elliot. Thanks fer the edjumacation! ; - )
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
INdeed, various clever teachers have used that over the years. They ususlly say it TS...Elliot.His poetry is rather good, BTW...
Mike,
A buddy of mine puts it this way, "The Russians have a name for that...'Tough s###ski' ! "
Ray
Ray,
Bless you, I needed that. It's been so damn cold up here I thought my face froze, but you made me realize that I can still laugh with a smile too!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 3/8/2007 11:00 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
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