Dear Experts,
I could use some of your expertise. For decades, I made nice furniture but used dowels for panel joinery. I have switched to using mortise and tenon. I make the mortises with a router and a Tage Frid U-shaped jig, and my tenons with a tenoning jig on a table saw.
As I have gotten more experience, my desire for perfection is increasing. So I am getting bitten by the “shoulder plane” bug, for cleaning up both the shoulders and for fitting the tenons. So I called Lie Nielsen today and talked to a very nice person. I asked whether he recommended the medium or large shoulder plane for what I am doing. Surprisingly, he said that he recommends the low angle block rabbet plane both for cleaning up shoulders and fitting tenons, and for everything else you’d use a low angle block plane for. I was surprised by this.
My question to you is: For the purposes I described, would you recommend the large shoulder plane, the medium shoulder plane or the low angle rabbet block plane. More importantly, WHY would you make that recommendation?
I am sure that the best thing to do is to buy one of each. I am not in that cash bracket yet. So if I am going to buy one, how should I choose?
Thank you.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Replies
Mel,
I have a LN large shoulder plane and the LA block rabbet plane. The shoulder plane works fine on all sizes of tenons, but I have found that the block rabbet works very nicely on wider tenons. It generally requires fewer passes and does a better job more easily of keeping the cheeks parallel and flat.
My recommendation to you would be to buy the LA rabbet block plane if most of your tenons are fairly wide, otherwise get the shoulder plane. (There's only a couple of inches difference in the length of the large vs the medium shoulder planes, so I'm not sure that it makes a lot of difference other than comfort in the hand....) (The rabbet plane iron is somewhat easier to hone than the shoulder plane iron, mainly because of size.)
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen!
James
James,Thank you for your quick and insightful response. I am expanding my use of mortise and tenon joints -- on purpose. So far, most have been on raised panel doors and on face frames. So the tenons have not been all that wide. I did make some three inch wide, two inch long through-tenons in a few benches. So far most have been less that 2.5 inches wide and less than an inch and a quarter long. I have a long list of plans that will use tenons in joining wide skirts so that the tenons will have to be split, etc. Given all of that, I take it that you see the large shoulder plane as more useful than the medium sized, if a person only has one. I also take it that, if I was to buy only one, the lo angle block rabbet plane would be the one. The reasons are ease of use, ability to thin most tenons in a single pass which covers the entire tenon.
Thank you very much. Your response was clear, crisp, to the point, and easy to understand. What more could I ask?Mel
PS - You wrote first, and I answered you first, but I deleted that response because of a typo. This response is identical to the last, but with the typo removed. I was moving too fast and didn't preview my response. Sorry about that.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Glad that it was of some use to you.
The large shoulder plane does have the advantage of being longer, so you'll get better registration on longer pieces (or on long rebate shoulders, etc), is heavier, and has a wider iron, but other than that, I don't see a lot of difference. BUT, I haven't used the medium shoulder plane, so I don't have any experience comparing the heft, handiness, etc., of each with the other.
The rabbet BP is probably more versatile than a shoulder plane, so it is something that I would certainly take a serious look at.
Which to buy first? That really depends on what you're going to be doing (you already know this, I'm sure); I'd suggest getting the one that will be most useful to you immediately. They're both great tools! Each will pull shavings that you can read the fine print on a used car contract through......Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen!
James
Guten Tag James,
Ray Pine says that he sometimes uses the Stanley rabbet plane. I happen to have a Stanley #78 Duplex Filetster Rabbet Plane. I also have a Stanley #71 Router Plane. Last night I cut some tenons to test those two planes. I'll give both of them a workout and see if I can develop the skill to make each of them work in trimming the faces of thick tenons. Of course, I am used to using a rasp and a file to do the same thing. Soon I will have a larger arsenal. The one thing that I have learned well in this thread is that there is no urgency for me to go out and buy yet another plane. This thread has been very worthwhile to me, and I thank everyone who let me know their recommendations, and more importantly, their rationales.Auf wiedersehen,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel,
When I need to shave a little off of tenon cheeks--and I usually only do so if I have sawn them so the faces are not parallel--I use either a rasp [more to take off] or a file [less to take off]. If the tenon is too tight a fit but otherwise good, I'll pare the mortise a shaving or two to ensure a hand-fit.
As for shoulders, I knife the lines for the shoulders, saw on or very much next to the line and pare with a chisel using the knifed line to register the paring chisel. I also typically undercut my shoulders, so I have chisel at hand anyway.
But...when I did use a plane to fit tenons, it was the LN rabbet block plane. It has a wider registration than all but a huge shoulder plane but the weight and balance I liked better.
I have two shoulder planes. The small LN 1/2 infill which I use in non-typical ways as well as once upon a time as a shoulder plane for, well, trimming tenon shoulders. I also have a wide infill shoulder plane but I don't know the last time I used it for something other than shaving rabbets. I use it more for rabbets than the LN rabbet block plane as it is narrower [same with the little LN infill shoulder plane] and it seem to be less tippy shaving down a rabbet than the rabbet block.
Take care, Mike
Mike,
Thank you for sharing your deep dark shoulder plane secrets with me. They are safe with me. I will tell no-one. I loved your comment that you use a rasp or a file to pare down the cheeks of a tenon. WOW! That is what I have been doing. Not because anyone told me, but because I have a few files and rasps, and I tend to cut tenons a hair thick (sometimes two or three hairs). I also like your idea (although I would guess you are not the only person in the world to have discovered it) of knifing the line for the cheeks. I will give that a try. It sounds very practical, based on my experience trying to clean up shoulders which were not knifed! Excellent, dude. So, I take it that your lesson to me is to not rush out and buy a plane just yet. My wife will think you are a very intelligent person. Insted, I should continue to use my rasp and file, which have worked so far. That is my plan. I will continue with the rasp and file, and if and when I do decide to buy a plane, based on the advice from you and from James, it will most probably be the low angle rabbet block plane.You are a gentleman and a scholar.
Thank you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel
I will echo the advice of MIke and emphasize that ..
(1) For myself the choice of weapon is based on the aspects of registration and momentum.
(2) My go-to shoulder plane is a no-name dovetailed infill that is large (1 1/4" wide) and heavy. It will slice hard Jarrah endgrain effortlessly. Its height makes it possible to register comfortably against the tenon faces as I trim the tenon shoulder. The low side wall of a block plane provides too little registration for maintaining squareness.
I do have a couple of 3/4" shoulder planes that are excellent tools insofar as build quality and design, but their lightness is less helpful with hardwood. Since I do not spend all day trimming tenon shoulders, the weight of the infill does not induce fatigue.
(3) For faces of tenons I tend to use a rasp (got that from Mike) or a Stanley #140 (tuned up and with a LN iron). I have not used the LN rabbet block plane but if I had one I would. It is probably more useful that the #140, although the #140 is the appropriate plane for crossgrain planing (still, if you are prepared to use a rasp for tenon faces, then a little extra roughness from the LN will not be important here). The block plane is preferred over a shoulder plane (even a wide one) for tenon faces again because of registration. The shoulder plane is too tippy in this situation since it has too little to register against.
My 2c worth.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
Your message didn't just provide an answer. It also provided the rationale for selecting criteria for evaluation methods of trimming tenon shoulders and faces. So it seems that the best approach for trimming faces is either a rasp/file or low angle block rabbet plane, not a shoulder plane, even a large one. However, for trimming shoulders, the large shoulder plane is preferable to the smaller one. I had the feeling that you would send me a response. I remember your post a short while ago about the tuned Stanley 140 plane. That message was actually the reason that I called LN today to ask their opinion.
After I read that message, I looked up the Stanley 140, and found a picture and description. I figured that finding one would be very difficult. I did some searches and came up with nothing. I am glad to hear that the LN Rabbet block plane would be a good alternative. Thank you for your $20 worth (your 2 cent estimate was too low).
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I would differ with the honored gentlemen here who recommend a rasp for tenon trimming. The reason is not that I think they are wrong, but that they are very skilled craftsman who are used to fine work with a very agressive tool...the rasp. Coincidentally, I have all of the particular tools that have been discussed in this thread. I agree that the most versatile toll of the bunch would be the LN rabbet block plane. I just finished using mine to trim some wedged through-tenons for a saw bench. I also frequently go to the LN med shoulder plane for a few whisks off of smaller tenons and of course there is no better tool for trimming tenon shoulders. As Mike W says, the small LN infill plane is handy too for precision work. I personally would not use a rasp to finish trim a tenon for fit. To me a rasp is too reliant on a very good hand and eye for a good result. I sometimes chamfer tenon ends with a rasp, but I never file the cheeks. You very likely will eventually have both the rabbet and shoulder planes.
Handrubbed,
It is great to hear from someone who has experience with all of the planes under discussion. You are obviously 100% correct. The optimal solution for me, given an infinite amount of cash, is to buy one of each. Really its only a matter of time. I am 63 now and plan on doing woodwork for at least another 30 years. :-)Given limited amounts of disposable income, I have long focussed on increasing my skills with a limited set of available tools. I stumbled on the use of rasps and files for fitting tenons. I do it very carefully. If anyone who had to make a living at woodwork watched me slowly fit a tenon, they would tear their hair out. I am slow, but there is nothing to hurry me. I am just doing it for funI have come upon a few tools rather economically lately. For example, I got a Stanley #71 router plane, and am practicing using it to fit tenons. It has the advantage of referencing the tenon face to the face of the stile. That is a big plus. So all of this comes down to: what is the order in which I should make my LN plane purchases over the next 30 years. If you ever find that you need to dispose of one of your LNs at a good price, please let me know. So here is a question for you: what do you recommend for the first two of the LN planes that we are talking about? Would it be the Block Rabbet plane and the large shoulder plane --- followed by the small shoulder plane -- followed by the medium???Thank you,MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I would do again what I did initially, and that is to purchase the medium shoulder plane. There are many good ones besides the LN, as you know. The reason I would buy this one first is that it does several jobs that no other plane can do as well, one of which is accurately finishing shoulders, as well as cheeks. A person could easily live without the rabbet block plane because a low angle block plane used along with the shoulder plane accomplish the same tasks on tenons. You do have a LA block, I hope?
Handrubbed,
Yup, I have an LA block plane -- a middle-aged Stanley.This is probably a naive question, but what the heck. I have a Stanley #78 Duplex Rabbet plane. It's sized and shaped a bit like a medium shoulder plane, but it is not low angle. Do you think it is worth giving it a try for trimming either tenon faces or shoulders? I'll make a few up in both hard and softwood and see what happens. It'll be a learning experience. I started a thread a few months ago on "woodworking summer camp" and got a lot of great suggestions for taking courses. I have never learned to use handplanes. I could use a week of hands-on experience with an expert. I have learned a great deal from you and mwenz, Derek Cohen, and pzgren in this thread, but a week of school will do me a world of good. Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
but that they are very skilled craftsman who are used to fine work with a very agressive tool...the rasp.
I'm sure in my case you are being much too generous!
But the point Mike makes is true--it is a little easier to make the faces non-parallel using something like a rasp which has greater length than the part being trimmed and also its being so narrow. The main tendency is to rock, creating a convex face, and second would be to taper the width and or length.
Rasps can be bought which are not too coarse and yet cut fast--but the sticker shock is something else.
A while back, I knocked out this tenon for an illustration of the surface left behind using the rasp I typically use. The backsaw was a very coarse 9 ppi and the wood a Mahogany-alike [Meranti iirc]. So the saw only took a few strokes and as the set was fairly even, I probably would have glued it up as is. But this wood, which is a little "woody" does show that a rasp can still leave a fairly smooth surface.
http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/temp/tenon.jpg
In the classes I have taught I almost always recommend a plane. Some after using the medium LN shoulder purchase it and about an equal number purchase the rabbet block. The rest go with rasps an or files. Point being, there isn't a single answer for all and would recommend trying them out at a Woodcraft or other woodworking store.
Take care, Mike
Mike,
With each message, more light is shed. The experience of your students, being split between a shoulder plane, a block plane and rasps is very telling. The answer is -- find something that works, learn how to make it work well, and stick with it.
Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I look at forum messages as a sort of round-table conversation where so many things are shared by various voices. In the end, we all need to just make shavings to find what currently will work for us as individuals. Whether it is a solitary endeavor in the quietness of the shop, or the dynamics a class brings, isn't as important as just doing.
A clarification. I would be the last person to say pick a method or tool and stick to it. I enjoy going out to the shop and trying tools, methods and proceedures. I have used the shoulder planes [my large infill has been a longtime friend] and several years ago bought the LN rabbet block and used it a lot as well. You mention a Stanley #78--I have used one [and a moving fillester] to both create and refine tenons. Works. So too the router plane, which I do use still when creating lap joints.
And I am glad I did try all those things as I think it improved my own abilities. I am also a creature of habit and files and rasps was where I began. So too with sawing tenons. I have used most power options available. But I am back to handsawing for the most part.
Take care, Mike
Mike,My mind has a mind of its own. As I conversed with you on this thread, my mind conceived of a wild idea on compiling woodworking advice. This message is a bit long. Please tell me what you think of it.What would you think about an "electronic book" (eg a Word Document) entitled: "Woodworking Wisdom". I often think back to a Knots message or thread and have a difficult time finding it using the search function. The reason I want to look up on old message is because the same topics come up over and over again. Some messages are classics. What I am thinking about is an electronic book, which anyone can download any time for free. It is a compilation of wisdom from Knots. There at least three approaches to developing it. The first way is for a group of volunteers to collaborate on coming up with a list of topics, and then splitting up the work and searching the archives and putting in the "good stuff" under each topic.The second way is even more interesting as a social experiment. Offer every member of Knots the opportunity to write one page of the book. They get to pick their topic, and write one Microsoft Word page on that topic. A third way is to make a list of topics and even develop a suggested Knots member to write each. NO ONE GETS MORE THAN ONE PAGE. Then contact the suggested members and see if they would be willing. I can't imagine anyone taking more than two hours (at the outside) to write their page. No one would be excluded from writing a page. Everyone who wants to gets to write a page. Each person edits their own page by sending it to whomever they want for advice, but once they have written it, no one else will edit it.I would use your last message on how to use advice from the forum, and on going to the shop to develop alternative skills for each task, as the Introduction to the book.Any way it is done, the result would be very useful, very open to argument, very much in need of revision, very incomplete, etc etc etc. But it would be fun! It is possible that this book could go down in the history of woodworking literature as a classic -- high wisdom at no charge.Do you think this idea is worth pursuing? I am not asking you to volunteer!! You know the denizens of Knots much better than I do. I would like your opinion as to whether the idea has a chance of flying. The result would be a Word Document that would exist in a specific place on Knots, that could be opened and downloaded. I am fully prepared for you to say that the idea is one of the worst in the history of the universe, so please don't hold back. :-)
Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel,
Hmm. It's not a bad idea. A sort of Wikipedia of woodworking info. I do think that some of the info I read has a lifespan longer than the average thread. And I have saved info off to my computer before.
Much of the info, though, even by me or another may be of a transitory nature. For instance, 4 years ago I would have mostly centered advice around the LN rabbet block plane had I been asked, though I would have still given other options. The onus would then be on you to sift through all the responses to pick and choose and then compile into a coherent page or so, and then probably edit to concise information. Sort of like the current Taunton Complete series. Different ways of accomplishing a task.
There are several resource of compiled information already on the net. For instance, one very good resource is Cian Perez' web site:http://www.cianperez.com/Wood/WoodDocs/Wood_How_To/INDEX_How_To.htm
This is of course winging a response to your good idea. Heck, I would approach Taunton [who will possibly see this thread anyway] with a book idea on mainly handtool methods. If not a book, their own method of implementing a Wikipedia interface which gives authors and editors the ability to enter and alter information.
Take care, Mikewho will think about all this...
Mike,
I love the Cian Perez website. Thank you very much. As for my "book" idea -- I am going to keep it on hold for a while and think about it. Thanks for your thoughts on it. This has been a good thread for me. My questions were answered.We'll move on to other things.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel,
I use my stanley rabbet plane to shave down fat tenons. Have used files rasps etc, but for me, it's hard to keep from rounding things over. But I'm left handed what can you expect.
Re the e-book. I'm so full of $hit, it won't all firt on one page.
Cheers,
Ray
Ray,Since I have the Stanley rabbet plane, I plan to give it a try on thinning fat tenons. I have been using the rasp. I bought the Stanley new back about 1970 for about $12. It must be well rested, because I never used it. I did tune it up nicely. Now I have something to do with it. Can't remember why I bought it. Must have thought I was going to make a lot of rabbets by hand, until I discovered the router later that year. Concerning the e-book -- the concept entices me, but the probability of making it happen is very very small. Ideas are like photos -- you have to have a lot of either to find a good one. The e-book wasn't one of the good ones. Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
As most posts deal with suggestions how craftsmen approach their work, I usually take posts only as that. Regarding Mike W.--he is a superb saw builder and if anyone has viewed any of his "clips" on making handles, you would understand why he uses a rasp. He can accomplish with a rasp what many of us could only do with a fine set plane and/or sandpaper! That is a real testament to his ability.
Now that doesn't mean we don't try to use a rasp, it is simply a statement that we all need to experiment with techniques and find what works for us.
I started off in life (after college-1974) as a carpenter. In 1989 I left the trade and started a manufacturing business, which is where I still spend my time. During the second part of life's journey, I began woodworking in earnest, in my spare time. Revelations abound over approaching this as a hobby and not a profession. I've learned I don't know as much as I thought I did. Basically, afgter you learn to hold your tongue right, you will be amazed what you can do and how there is no right way to do a task but there is a way that is right for you.
I am in need of my first plane for this very reason. Most of this discussion concerns metal body planes. I’m female and in my 60’s. I adore Japanese saws because they require finer control NF less muscle to operation. I’m leaning towards a Japanese plane but find little in your magazine on where to buy them. I’m leaning towards a block plane because it’s one-handed. Can you suggest a source? Thank you.
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