Friends,
I was surfing the web (as more and more older people are doing) when I happened upon a very long, scholarly treatise by Professor John Verhoeven of Iowa State University on sharpening knives. I figured that this would generalize to sharpening chisels and plane blades, and I was not overloaded with mandates from SWMBO at the time, so I read the article. You can download the 55 page behemoth at
http://mse.iastate.edu/files/verhoeven/KnifeShExps.pdf
Professor Verhoven did experiments with the Tormek and another sharpening machine, with handsharpening using waterstones, with ceramic stones, with strops which were and were not loaded with honing abrasives, with felt and cloth wheels for honing, and on and on and on.
Those with Tormeks will be happy with what he has to say. Those who use felt or cloth wheels will not be happy. Those who use waterstones will be happy.
I am not recommending that everyone download and study this article. Rather, I am posting it for the five people in the universe who really get excited by microscope photos of edges produced systematically by different honing methods.
My outlook on sharpening is that of Sgian Dubh (hope I spelled that correctly) who once posted a message saying something like — I do sharpening because I have to and not because I want to, and I get things sharp enough to do the work I have to do — not as sharp as possible. (The words are not right, but I believe that was the essence of the message). However, having been trained as a scientist, I occassionally revert to reading sholarly articles which go farther into details than normal people would put up with. I actually enjoyed this long article, and it will save me some money. I was going to get a hard felt wheel for honing, but now I will just use a charged leather homemade strop. I also plan to implement Derek Cohen’s suggestion for making a leather face for a “sanding” disk on a motor arbor.
If you are not interested in long scholarly articles on sharpening, but you have a hard time falling asleep, this article may still be useful to you.
If anyone does actually read the article, I’d appreciate hearing your reaction to it. If more than two people actually do read it, I will lose a bet with my wife.
Enjoy,
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Replies
Mel,
I read the article. No, just kidding, although I did scan some of the conclusions.
My conclusion is, which I'm sure will be the same as most, don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!
Actually my philosophy on sharpening is: If you just sharpened it (by any method) and it still won't cut, then you obviously aren't push hard enough :)
Have a good day,
-Chuck
The point behind sharpening is to produce a burr or feather edge which is then, preferably, broken off in one piece. At that moment, the honing process stops and the edge is ready to use. This rarely happens perfectly in practice, although I have flipped the back over on more than one occasion, taken one swipe, and laid the entire feather edge onto the oilstone in one contiguous piece. To describe the resulting edge as sharp would be a gross understatement. I believe it was as close to a perfect edge as possible, geometrically perfect.
Most occassions we wear the burr off during honing and this certainly works up a more than serviceable edge, but anybody who has experienced what I've described above, and had enough sense to immediately stop honing, knows exactly what I'm talking about.
I like a thick profound burr. I'll often start the honing process on a medium stone to work up a pronounced burr quickly and then hit the fine oilstone and the hard black for a few swipes and then immediately go to the back on the hard black to see if I can knock it off in one piece. I think most woodworkers over polish and over rub and end up dubbing over what would have been a great edge if they'd stopped short.
Edited 11/13/2006 12:58 pm ET by VeriestTyro
I hoped I was not the only one.
Mel,
I made it to page 15. I have bookmarked it, and will finish later. I'll be the hedge on your bet. What is at stake on this wager of yours?
Ray
Chuck, Veriest, nicobie, Metod, Ray,Thanks for your replies. Now I know who my friends are, and who wants me to lose bets to my wife! :-)I wish I could have become a professor and gotten paid to write 55 page papers on woodworking topics. I don't worry about sharpening much. Sandpaper gets my chisels and gauges pretty sharp. However, being a psychologist, I find cultural differences to be fascinating. There seems to be a big cultural difference between woodcarvers and cabinetmakers in the area of sharpening. A lot of top-notch woodcarvers use felt and cotton wheels to hone their gauges. They write about it in FWW. Yet logic and many of the tests seem to say it does more harm than good. How can this be? Is it just cultural or is there a "real" factor that is hiding? Certainly, the softer the wheel, and the more you put the sharp edgge in the spinning wheel, the more dubbing that will occur. Many, but not all, of the carvers do mention that you should be careful of this, then they go ahead and do it. If you look at the resulting carvings, you can't argue with success. TJ McDermott, for example, is famously successful, and IMHO, his work is fabulous, and he prefers a softer wheel to the harder felt wheel!!! Given the vast number of magnificent carvings that these folks turn out, using chisels and gauges that they honed on felt wheels, either one of two things is true:
1) a little bit of dubbing just doesn't make any real difference, so don't worry about it. or
2) For carving, a little bit of dubbing is a good thing. There is a real movement in carving to put secondary bevels on both sides of the edge. They say that this makes it easier to cut curves without chattering. Is it possible that the felt wheels are surreptitiously putting on these secondary bevels, which are a good thing?If purposely dubbing my gauges on a felt wheel will make me carve like TJ, I should adopt that procedure. Anyway, my wife thanks you for letting her win the bet. I still haven't figured out why felt wheels, which have been proven to cause dubbing, enable the great carvers to do so well. If you ever figure it out, let me know. On the other hand, if it works,is there anything important to figure out? Maybe the answer lies in Ray Pine, who is both a cabinetmaker and a carver. However, he is primarily a cabinetmaker who does carving, so his "culture" is the cabinetmaker's culture, which is probably why he doesn't use a felt buffing wheel. So the real answer is: the use of a felt buffing wheel is neither a neccessary nor a sufficient condition for being a great carver. Now I have the answer, and I can move on. Thank you all for your help. Enjoy.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I remember ready something from an advocate of felt wheels and his solution to "dubbing" the edge was that you keep the edge just above the wheel and the back (part closer to the handle)of the bevel contacting the wheel. He seemed to think that just bits of the fuzz from the wheel that had abrasive impregnating them did the sharpening. Anyway if it works for somebody its hard to argue although on this forum it often happens:) Thanks again for putting that link in I always need latenite reading.Troy
Mel,
Sorry about you losing your bet. I hope the wife enjoys her diamond earrings.
All this sharpening stuff can really get a guy spinning in circles. What has worked for you for years you discover, scientifically, shouldn't work well at all. That's why I say, don't confuse me with the facts......
I used to use oil stones, but they were too slow. Then I discovered the scarry sharp method and I was amazed at the results. That plunged me into the Neanderthal world. Anyway, my collection of tools is too eclectic to evaluate one method over the other.
-Chuck
P.S.
I noticed that nowhere in that paper did the author mention the number of angels that could dance the blade edge. How scientific could it be?
Dubbing creates a microbevel. I've written extensively about it here in this forum. There is more to cutting wood than just a sharp edge.From your post, "Many, but not all, of the carvers do mention that you should be careful of this, then they go ahead and do it."You'd be surprised how few carvers understand more about sharpening than anyone here. For the hundreds of articles written about sharpening good ones are extremely rare. Calvo gets it, Agrell gets it, Hall gets it. There are carvers that know as little as novices, fortunately for them you don't have to understand it to make a decent edge.Lee
Edited 11/14/2006 12:07 pm ET by LeeGrindinger
Lee,
Thank you for the response. I learned about microbeveling on carving gauges from you. That is what got me thinking that the use of a felt wheel causes dubbing which is like a microbevel. The information that you have given me has been very useful. I had taked a hiatus from carving, but now I'm back.
Enjoy.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
By the way, I have not read the article you posted the link to.Lee
Well, I skimmed it, but my eyes did glaze over. I probably would have done better if I understood the notations (I was a history major)......<<<I wish I could have become a professor and gotten paid to write 55 page papers on woodworking topics.>>>I noticed that he is "Emeritus" which most likely means he's retired, but still has access to all the lab equipment, etc. I would guess this was a labor of love; and I wouldn't be surprised if he was a woodworker. He would probably be very pleased if you dropped him a line, and gave him a link to this discussion.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Mel : I'am not an expert by any means but i use a hard felt wheel 14" in dia running backwards at about 300rpm. Standing in front of the wheel i put the gouge at about the 11 o clock position. I lift up on the handle end but stop immediately when the compound starts to creep over the cutting edge .It is a fine line to get it right.Anyway this is what has worked for me . My .02cents worth
Chris
Chris,
Thanks. Similar hard felt wheels have worked for a number of people that I have contacted. So there is no doubt - it works.Forget about reading the 55 pages. My wife already won the bet. :-)Enjoy, and thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel : And no i haven't read it yet Chris
I wish I could have become a professor and gotten paid to write 55 page papers on woodworking topics.
Simple: 4 years college, then 6+ years in grad school to get your PhD. Then, if you're lucky, do land a post-doc position at some university, i.e., 80+ hour work weeks for little pay. Do that for a couple of years, and then if you are real, real, real lucky, you find some place that'll hire you as a assistant professor. Besides the workload from teaching undergrad courses, you've gotta write a ton of papers, and get them published in journals, to prove that you're worth keeping around ("publish or perish"). If they decide to keep you, you'll get to associate professor eventually: less teaching workload, more time for research. Maybe, just maybe, if you've demonstrated that you've made significant contributions to the field, they someday make you a full professor: you get tenor, and can spend your time studying essentially whatever you want.
In other words, getting a professorship at a major university is a very selective process, more than, say, getting in the NBA or NFL.
Also note, as someone else pointed out, he's an emeritis professor: he's retired, and didn't get paid for this. On the title page, he thanks the university for leeting him come in and use some of the lab equipment.
>you get tenor, and <
Sounds like a painful process to me. Most professors I ever met were more concerned with tenure.
Sounds like a painful process to me. Most professors I ever met were more concerned with tenure
;) Ok, I'll blame it on the tryptophan!
As to the question of sharpening, if I could have an indentured servant that would do one thing for me, it would be to provide me with always-sharp tools. I have little interest in doing it, getting good at it, etc., other than the fact that it is a necessity.
Edited 11/24/2006 10:25 pm by BarryO
MEL, do not dispair, while I can't read pdfs right now due to my sick PC , I will read it later after the doctor makes it better.
If you think that the carvers are "special" group then you have never been in the company of a very large group of turners. I put them in the same box with "drummers" who can never be classified in the same group with musicians. Much like those who tend goal in north american hockey . Yes, they are hockey players BUT THEY ARE GOALIES AND IN A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT PRIVATE UNION OF THEIR OWN.
I am also in pain as I have three children (32, 34, 38) who are all rabid liberals and one is a drummer( all prayers accepted). All the best, Pat-happy turkey.
Pat,
Please do not bother to read the long treatise. You have better things to do with your time. I have had a good time with this thread. Don't worry about me going off the deep end in sharpening. So you have three kids in their 30s. Mine three are slightly younger, ranging from 26 to 32. I think they are neither conservative or liberal. I think they are apolitical. I used to have three theories about bringing up kids. Then I had three kids and no theories! I have something in common with one of your kids. I was a rock and roll drummer. But after college I came to my senses and sold the drums and bought a five string banjo. I wanted to play like Earl Scruggs. I still would like to. Based on your message, I have to do some research to understand the commonality between goalies, turners, carvers and drummers. Have fun. Please do not bother to read the long article. I already lost the bet with my wife. :-)Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Isn't Earl Scruggs dead? Surely you can play better than him, now?!?!
No one did the Foggy Mtn Breakdown better than Flatt and Scruggs. Saw their band in Harrisonburg in the early 70's and still remember it. Their fiddler (Curley someone?) had a cloud of rosin around his head after his bit. I Wonder How the Old Folks are, at Home?
Were you in NoVa when the seldom scene and Charlie Waller's bunch ruled? Saw the Country Gents' 25 yr celebration, or maybe it was 50, at Wolftrap a long time ago...
Cheers,
Ray
Ray,
Good to see that someone else appreciates really great music. My wife and I have gotten along well for 36 years, but there is some give and take in making that work. Unfortunately she does not enjoy Bluegrass at all, so we have rarely gone out to see Bluegrass shows. We did see Scruggs after he split from Flatt, and tried to give his kids a start in music. They called it the Earle Scruggs Review. His kids are very talented, but nothin' like their daddy. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, you are an introspective psychologist, what happened to extrospection, do you lose it with age?
Mufti,
Q. What ever happened to introspective psychology?A. I'll have to search my mind to come up with the answer. :-)As I am sure you know. Introspective Psychology lost favor in the early part of the last century. At least it did among psychologists. However, it seems to be alive and well on Knots!!! The nice thing about introspective psych is that it doesn't matter that one is not being scientific. It's fine to talk about what you feel. Introspective Psych in Action: ("I prefer the Holtey to the Lie Nielsen. It fits my hand and my life style. Having analyzed the situation, I have come to the conclusion that my kid doesn't really need to go to school. I'll use the money to buy the plane and I'll teach the kid everything he needs to know about readin and writin.")Enjoy. Thanks for reminding me of something I haven't thought about for decades.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I have read it now. It was fun. I dont have all that fancy stuff, but have now obtained a hand cranked wheel.
Luddites of the world unite.
Dave
Dave,
I also have a hand crank wheel.
Enjoy.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I have been reading this discussion and find that no one has talked about using sandpaper on Chisels and plane blades. I recently read an article in one of the Magazines I get, I think it was Workbench, where the author described using a sheet of glass with 6 grits of sandpaper(80, 150, 320, 600, 1200,2000, wet dry) glued on as the progreesion for sharpening. He claimed that this would give and extremely sharp edge as well as shining the back edge(when taking off the burr).
I have my sheet of glass and am buying the finer grits of sandpaper to try this method out. Naturally the coarse sandpaper(80, 150) are only for chisels that are nicked, otherwise you would start at 320 or 600 and then work your way up.
Here's to making sawdust.
How
How,
That method of sharpening is called Scary Sharp and is well known. You can look up Scary sharp on Google and find some good explanations of it. That is what I use. I went to an automotive supply store and got wet and dry sandpaper in 600, 800, 1000, 1600 and 2000 grits. I work all the way down to 2000 grit and the results are amazing. The nice thing about this method is that you work your way from coarse to fine grit in small jumps. Good luck with it. If you have any problems, write to me.Enjoy. Thanks for writing.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, before it was known as the "Scary Sharp" method of sharpening it was known as the, "Oh, Sh*t. I've left my oilstone in the workshop- what's handy around here at the installation site to sharpen my chisel/plane? Ah, there's a handy lump of sandpaper/smooth concrete step-- that'll get my erse out of a hole," method.
When I first came across the term Scary Sharp about ten or thirteen years ago, it took me about a further six months to find out what it really meant. When I did find out, I was truly disappointed to discover all it was was a fancy name for an old last ditch method used for decades by generations of cabinetmakers that had temporarily 'mislaid' their normal sharpening stone, ha, ha. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 11/21/2006 7:10 pm by SgianDubh
Richard,
The history of technology is replete with the rediscovery of old techniques. As Santyana said, He who is ignorant of history is bound to repeat it. It reminds me of the 12 year old who blurts out in English class "Ohmygosh, all my life I have been speaking in paragraphs!"Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I'm guessing that the guys running around the site using sandpaper as a last ditch sharpening system weren't running around with float glass and 2000 grit paper. Give the scary sharp guys some credit.I've tried scary sharp. Excellent results but too much of a pain in the arse for me.Matt
I'm guessing that the guys running around the site using sandpaper as a last ditch sharpening system weren't running around with float glass and 2000 grit paper.
The 'cure' (Scary Sharp) is/was worse than the 'disease' (leaving the oilstone in the shop).
Yep, I can agree with that. Especially when you have guys buying granite surface plates and PSA paper measured in fractions of microns.
A bench is plenty flat, over the relevant area used for sharpening, that one does not have to own a glass plate (a hassle in a smallish woodshop if ever there was one) in order to use sandpaper to sharpen effectively. A square foot or so of smooth bench space works fine - an assembly table with a hardboard or formica skin even better.
Of course the wanks who look at every edge through a loup will arch their backs, but the majority of them never do much besides seeing if they can raise a shaving on end-grain Pine with a block plane they spent 60 hours fettling that originally sold for a buck and a half. Those who, in essence, waste a $hitload of time.
Edited 11/22/2006 12:31 pm ET by CStanford
Charles, I think Mqumaer deserves some credit for finding something you can actually agree with.
I don't think much of the scarey sharp thing either, but find it preferable to refer folk to the web address where the thing is shown up in a humorous and polite way-http://www.shavings.net/scary.htm.Philip Marcou
I'll go even scarier. I went from a time consuming (sometimes I didn't sharpen as soon as I should have because the set up was onerous), multi-stone, water bath, etc. system, to a always sharp all the time because it is so easy system. That is the wet/dry paper, leather strop system. A plate of glass is best, but hard and flat is the key, so what you have is what works. A piece of steel, hard counter, whatever. I use glass or steel. The next is paper. I start with 320 new for new faces of a chisel or plane blade, then to 400, then 600. I finish with woreout 320 and then to woreout 600, and then to a leather strop. I found that 600 paper that is well used, polishes the edge to almost mirror finish, and then to the strop to bring it to amazingly sharp. I find I can restrop 3-4 times before I have to resharpen (unless I nick it or something), and then a couple of licks on the used 320, then polish on the used 600, strop, and back at it. The only set up is the blade jig (Veritas, Lee Valley). All my tools are sharp pretty well all the time.
I'm glad to hear you keep it reasonably simple skidoo. I've never understood the fanatiscm some people have to work their way through about six or eight grades of abrasive paper down to some ridiculous grade like 12,000 grit , or whatever. Some seem to think their life's work is all about mirror bright cutting edges. Every sharpen-up session takes perhaps half an hour or an hour once all the guddling and finicking is over with. A complete waste of time if you're actually a woodworker, and not a tool sharpening hobbiest.
Mostly I get away with a few swipes on a 600 or 800 grit ceramic stone-- I'm not sure now what grit my coarsest stone is. It takes between 2 and 4 minutes from initial plane disassembly to being back at work per sharpening session. It's not until you get to the final phases of getting wood polish ready that you might need to get plane irons a bit more polished up on a finer stone. Bencg chisels seldom need more than a few swipes on a 600- 800 grit stone. Slainte. Richard Jones Furniture
Mel I have been trying to use the scary sharp method ,but have been having trouble with the spray adhevise making the wet and dry slightly lumpy. I have been using 3-m industrial adhevise. What do you use? Thanks Chris
Chris,
I take the previous piece of sandpaper off the glass using something sharp like a chisel if I have trouble getting it off. Then I wipe with paint thinner to get the glass clean. Then I use the 3M spray adhesive VERY LIGHTLY on the back of the sandpaper. I don't put anything else, like water, on it. I put the sandpaper on the glass and go to work. I have three pieces of glass. If I am in a hurry, I just lay the next piece of sandpaper over the last one, with no adhesive. Some people say that causses dubbing but I read that someone else (one of the famous woodworkers) does it, so I tried, and it works fine for me. For example, if I have 300 grit glued down, I might just take the 600 grit and lay it on top of the 300. It doesn't move. It is held there by the friction of the piece below. Purists would say to glue each piece down. If I am in a hurry, I don't.I haven't had any problem with lumpiness. The reason is probably that I don't use much spray adhesive, just a puff of it, and I clean off the glass thoroughly before I glue the next piece on. Please let me know if that works for you. Remember - just a quick spray of adhesive. You don't want "wet", just slightly tacky. Err on the side of too little. If it comes off, just give it another puff of adhesive.Enjoy. Good luck. Let me know what happens.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel Thanks for the reply . I have three pieces of 10 x16" float glass that i use .i I will try like you said. I was beginning to think that i would have to buy the adhevise backed type.I have been using the tool holder made by General , i know it is cheap but i like it better than the Vertxxx (sp ? i think it's made in Canada) as it had one screw and always had trouble with the plane blade or what ever pivoting although i like the secondary bevel idea.That guy Beach that wrote an article FWW on using wooden tool holders seemed like a good no non - sense way of holding the tool. Thanks Chri s
I used one of the old Veritas jig and had the same problem, and the time consuming part of setting the proper angle. I recently bought thier new honing guides. It is well worth the money in saved setup time. It works well even for short chisels.
The article I read talked about using a sheet of glass that could hold 6 sheets of Sandpaper in the graduated grits and the blade would go from grit to grit until the final grit is reached, at which time a very (scary) sharp edge is obtained within 5 -10 minutes.
The major advantage I see in this method is being able to use relatively low cost sandpaper as oppossed to a bunch of Waterstones which probably cost $30 to $40 each and rapidly get used up and lose their flat surfaces.
I am setting up a piece of glass 1/4" thick , 16" wide and 36" long which will allow me to set up 6 different grits of sandpaper attached with "77" spray adhesive, and will use it for chisels and plane irons.
I will report on results.
How.
A routine part of sharpening with waterstones should be flattening the stones.
I don't have enough experience with waterstones to know the longevity of a waterstone in terms of equivalent sheets of sandpaper. But I do know that fine grit wet/dry paper isn't inexpensive and doesn't last forever. Based on the comments of others the sandpaper system my have lower initial cost but is ultimately more expensive if you do enough sharpening.
How,
You don't have to follow any specific format about how big the piece of glass it. You can use multiple pieces of glass. I have two. You can use both sides. You can use a piece of marble from a Big Box store. You can get one from Woodcraft. All you want is something that is flat. I went to the local hardware store, and the guy gave me two pieces of glass from his Off-cuts. Sand down the edges of the glass so you don't cut yourself.The thing you read said something about five minutes. DON"T BELIEVE SUCH THINGS. Your goal is to get a good edge. Focus on that. Not time. Your first few tries will take much longer than later tries. You will go through more sandpaper in your early tries. You will get more efficient and effective with time.You don't have to use every grit. Use every other one. You'll figure this out with time. Using a series of grits just makes each step easier. When you use a Tormek, you just get two grits, the big wheel and the leather wheel. That is a major drawback of the Tormek and Jet systems.Sandpaper isn't cheap, and you go through it rather rapidly. So I am not sure that after ten years you will have saved money with the Scary Sharp system. Waterstones last a long time. Once you get the waterstone system down, flattening is not difficult. It does require an initial outlay of money.After you become familiar with either system, it becomes second nature to you. You just don't worry about sharpening like you used to. It is no big thing. As a wise person once said, "Sharpening is not a major event." The less that it intrudes on your woodworking, the better.It will take you some time to figure out how much adhesive spray to put on the back of the sandpaper. I just use a brief "puff" and then I let it dry for a minute before I attach it to the glass. If you put too much on and don't let it dry, it is harder to get off. BUT even that isn't a problem. If the sandpaper is stuck down too much, and you need to replace it, just scrape it up with anything, and wipe the glass clean with a solvent (paint thinner). And you are ready to put the next paper on. I got very frustrated with the adhesive when I first started. After a few times, you just do it, and it goes quickly. BUT NOT THE FIRST FEW TIMES. Other people don't use spray adhesive. Rather they put the fine grits down with water. That works too. Have fun. Experiment. It will take longer at first. Shorter later. Don't worry about getting it all right the first time. You won't. Use a magnifying glass the first few times. Rub a magic marker on the chisel edge and watch it disappear as you hone. That will tell you if you the edge is "flat" against the paper. Enjoy the process. Don't watch the clock. Watch the edges get sharp. In the beginning you will spend too much time removing the scratches from the last grit. With practice you will get more proficient at stopping when there is no more to be gained.Let me know how it works out. If you have problems, write me a note. Always glad to help.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Thank you very much for the reply and the pointers, I probably would have gotten very frustrated if I wasn't prepared for the "learning curve".
How ( short for Howie)
How,
Thanks for writing back. Glad I was able to be helpful to you. You mentioned the "learning curve". I have found that the learning curve is ubiquitous in woodworking -- learning to do dovetails with a jig or by hand, fitting mortise and tenon joints, sharpening, etc etc etc. I just took a one-day course in making Shaker boxes. You can list the steps in making these boxes on a single page. But it would take a book to list all the things that can go wrong, and how to fix them. It is not until you have faced a lot of those that you really have a feel for making Shaker boxes. If you buy a Wood Rat jig, it takes a while to learn to use it. I recently took up chip carving, after having used chisels to carve for years. There is a big learning curve in controlling that single knife in chip carving. But than again, I have lots of time now that the kids are grown up and moved away. Might as well recognize the existence of these learning curves, and enjoy them. When you start using Scary Sharp, you can choose to use a jig to hold the chisels or you can just do it by hand. You will do it "Perfectly" with the jig, BUT you will find that the jig adds its own problems. In order to have each chisel go in at exactly the same place each time you hone it, you have to make a jig to put the chisel in the jig. I have come to the conclusion that it is "less perfect" to do it by hand, but that overall, it is a better thing. There is a learning curve in holding the chisels and plane blades as you move them over the sandpaper by hand. You have many challenges to come. Those challenges, however, would be the same whether you use oilstones, waterstones or sandpaper. Do you hold or use a jig? Your choice. Whatever you choose, have fun?MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I trust you had some enjoyable time over Thanksgiving.
And, you know, if it wasn't for "learning curves" we wouldn't have any stories to tell. It is learning curves where all the stories come from. Without them, life would be boring. Otherwise, we would just go out and do it.
Kickbacks, cuts, bruises, slips, wrong side, too short, other end, not flat, not sharp, warped, wrong color, spills, tears, cupped, voids, bad tool, battery shot, glue dried too quickly, etc., etc., et al -- the source of stories!!!! There are probably many many others.
And, Knots wouldn't be near as interesting.
Alan - planesaw
Alan,
Glad you had a good Thanksgiving. My wife and I were invited to the home our our son in law's maternal grandparents, as we have been for four years. Unfortunately he had a severe heart attack the Tuesday before Thanksgiving. We took all of the food to the hospital on Thanksgiving, and we all ate in the waiting room. It turned out to be a good thing to do. He has now been operated on and is doing well.Learning curves. Can't live with em. Cant live without em.
Enjoy.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Sounds like you guys made lemonade out of a lemon. Too many people would have gone into depression, canceled Thanksgiving and stressed out. Yet you and family took a stressful situation and strengthened the family.
When our son was diagnosed with leukemia 17 years or so ago, we learned very quickly what was important in life. Things went from an "academic" understanding of what is important to the reality of what is important.
Attached are two of the five that are important to us. They, along with their parents, spent Thanksgiving with us. Sam is 2 and half and studied the toy ads, while Eva played with a Corvette and PT Cruiser Sam and I made.
Alan - planesaw
Alan,
As we have learned, family is everything. Your photos of Sam and Eva are precious. The PT Cruiser and Corvette could pass for the real thing!Each year, Mary Beth and I would take a large plant and a handmade gift up to the Woomerts for Thanksgiving. It was wonderful of them to accept us into their extended family. The week before Dale had his heart attack, I decided to do a carving for them. They are from PA. I found a photo of a "Pennsylvania Dutch Love Spoon" with the instructions "Carve this out of bass wood." I figured pine would be more of a challenge. It was. But the spoon, with its Celtic-like rope-work came out nicely. I got it done in time and took it to the hospital as a good luck charm. They got a big kick out of it. Maybe it brought them some luck. Dale is doing well after surgery. Thanksgiving Dinner in the waiting room of the Intensive Care Unit of the hospital was a hoot. There was only one other man in intensive care and his family was there. They brought some food from McDonalds. We invited them to join in with us on the ham with all of the fixins. It was heartwarming. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Spray it on and let it sit for five minutes or so. You don't want to adhere it at full strength. You'll be able to peel a corner up and pull most paper off whole. Use a soup can to roll it down if you need to. Cutting it up into fourths works well. All you need to replicate is about the size of the largest honing stone or as wide a plane iron as you'll ever hone plus a little. This will also allow you to put several grits down on a smallish piece of glass (about a foot or so square is all you need). Don't forget to use both sides of the glass!! You can get about six different grits of paper on a piece of glass 12" square if you use both sides. You probably don't need six grits, so you can duplicate the grit you use the most.
This is supposed to be a simple, easy system. Keep it that way or you've lost the majority of the benefit.
Set the glass on a piece of rubber drawer liner or a neoprene router pad during use.
Charles,
Thanks for helping Chris out with the sandpaper sharpening. You hit the nail on the head when you said that this should be simple. I will also try your idea of letting the adhesive set for a while before sticking the paper down. I haven't started sharpening saws yet, but I did make a Krenov type plane. That's a start.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, Cstanford , Plane saw. Thank you all very much for your input. I never thought of using the other side of the glass. Beach from FWW was using plywood with double faced tape to hold the glass down which is what i've been doing . May be i'll try the water alone to hold it down or a lighter application olf glue as has been mentioned.
Plane saw , where do you buy the micron paper? Imight like to try it after i get 400 &600 wet wnd dry working. Thank you all Chris
Chris,
Charles Stanford and Planesaw have forgotten more about sharpening than I will ever learn. Pay attention to them.I get wet and dry sandpaper, grits 300 to 2000 from the local automotive store. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Well, I checked Highland Hardware (now Woodworking, i think) where I had gotten mine in the past and they don't have it on their webiste. But, it could still be worth a call or an email.
Tools for Woodworking has the adhesive kind, but I haven't wanted to pay the extra for the stick-on variety.
I did find a huge roll on ebay, but 15 micron only. I start with the rough stuff at 60 micron, then to 40, 30, 15, and 9. (numbers are opposite direction of grit.)
Mel is being modest -- he knows this stuff from an engineering / mathematical point of view beyond my capacity to comprehend.
But, like Mel and a few others, the wet/dry stuff at the auto parts store works great too. Doesn't last as long as the 3M, but gets the job done. I take it up to 2,000, even 5,000 just for the polish.
Also, once you get the blade in your Veritas jig (either one works fine) you can pull (and on the 3M you can even push), but move it side to side. Good article an issue or two ago (maybe 3 or so) in FWW on this very issue.
If you can't find the 3M (if you do, please let me know where) then head to the auto parts store and you will do just fine.
Alan - planesaw
Plane saw : Thanks for the effort of trying to locate the micron. I just came up from the basement , I have been using the pull stroke method on the 400 , 600 and 1200 , This method has made a huge improvement ,
Skidoo< I had some new "Buck" brand chisels that i got at a reduced price. Coming along ok the backs need a lot of work. Thanks again , all this info comes at the right time as i'am trying to mortice a deep hole in a door for an old old lock set.
By the way what kind of oil do you guys use on your stones or wet and dry sand paper?I 've been using mineral oil Chris
Right, wrong, or indifferent -- I use water as the lubricant also. I started out using Liquid Wrench. Heard it from someone. I am not a "cheap" person, but water is cheap, and much easier to clean up.
Clearly, when you use water, you need to dry the item when ever you are finished, or put it down for any length of time.
Alan - planesaw
Mel and everyone --
I don't use adhesive at all. Just plain water works. Saves a chunk of money over time. Sometimes I use a small spring clamp on one corner of the sand"paper" if I am sharpening a large blade or putting more than usual the pressure on it while sharpening.
I use a water wheel, or waterstone, if I am sharpening an old blade that came on a used tool I am restoring to user status. Then the scarey sharp for honing.
Also, by using water, I can swap grades of paper quickly. I use 3M's micron "paper" which lasts a long time. After considerable use it is smoother so I just use it for the next grade/grit for a while before tossing it.
I trust everyone had some good time with family, or at least some peach and quiet.
Alan - planesaw
I use duct tape. A piece on the top, and a piece on the bottom, easy to change, fairly cheap. The trick is to pull you blade, not push it. When you push it, it builds a small wave of paper in front of the edge, and that tends to round the edge. When you are done with the paper, a strop with jewelers rouge is the honing key.
Skidoo Thanks for that point about pulling it only . I was going to ask that question next. Chris
I couldn't help chiming in on the goaltenders.( As an active member of the union )I've told my wife I want to write a book on the correlations of goal tending and marriage.
You ALWAYS have to be ready for a shot.
One can come out of no where and nail you right between the eyes.
When you're in the right position, they puck just hits you.
You can have just ONE get by and still lose the game.
The puck has eyes and always gets you somewhere that isn't protected.
Thankfully, she just rolls her eyes at me.
On a serious note, a good friend of mine is in the astronaut program. He was a goaltender for the Annapolis team when he was there. I keep telling him it's about time we had a goalie in space. I have an old collectors item. It's a puck with the inscription International Goaltenders Union on it. The logo is a pair of goal sticks crossed with an old style mask on it. I told him if he flies, I'd give it to him. His response was he'd take it with him and then give it back to me. That would be the fastest puck known to mankind at 17,500 miles an hour.
I know this has nothing to do with sharpening. Just a little levity at the end of the day
PG
PG, thanks for the fun, we get a little too serious at times. Paddy
Paddy,
Let me tell you - getting a decent group together is harder than a collection of chisels.
I need a drummer! My kids all play wind instruments, as do I, but we dont have a drummer. I though I could get my wife to take it up - she was a excellent side drummer in pipe bands (they used to put up with my piping to get her) but no go. My daughter is a dancer and I thought she might like a go - she took up flute.
My grandfather was a good drummer, but he is 80 and lives in melbourne (he was the - real drummer don't read and don't need to practice variety, but played often enough to be OK)
Think I've found a 12 year old who is keen - but his mother want him to play piano and do athletics.
Any suggestions?
Dave
Thanks, Mel.
Very useful article, I'll be changing to a leather strop instead of a buff for final honing on tools.
That said, I tend to go with "sharp enough to shave" as a criteria. I figure that it worked for Hepplewhite, et al, and I'd love to get even close to that level of work.
It will be interesting to see how it affects my lathe work, as I'll be honing my skews a bit differently now. (I'll have smoooooth chatter marks, eh?)
And yes, I read the article.
Leon,
Thank you very much for letting me know that you profited from reading the long paper. I was surprised by how many folks read it. I use a leather strop now on my chisels. I am going to make a little setup which is covered with leather that I can hone the concave portions of my gouges.
I really appreciate hearing from you.
Good luck with your woodworking.
Enjoy.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Excellent point....
Thanks for posting this article. I thought it was well done and the pictures were very interesting.
Troy
Troy,
Glad you liked it. Thanks for letting me know. More people read it than I thought would.
Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
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