To start off, I apologize if this thread has been beaten to death in the past. I’ve read all the previous posts (I think) but I haven’t been able to glean an answer to my questions. I am replacing my 6″ jointer (ridgid) with a larger machine (8″) as I’ve recently expanded from my one car to a two car garage shop. I have decided on selecting one of the Grizzly machines and am deciding between three models (0490 parallelogram 8″ jointer $795 ; 0586 8″ jointer $595 and ; 0593 8″ jointer with spiral cutterhead $925).
I realize that the primary advantage of the parallelogram design has to do with ease of bed adjustment. I also realize that the difference between a 2hp and 3hp motor on a jointer probably isn’t a big deal (the 0490 has 3 hp).
I’ll limit my confusion to just two questions:
(1) The table width on the 0490 is only 8″ while that of the 0586 is 9 1/4″. I realize the blades are the same size. Does the parallelogram design allow the jointing of 8″ boards with only an 8″ table or does the non-parallelogram jointer have the capacity to joint a full 8″ board while the 0490 can only joint a narrower board due to the presence of the guard on a table only 8″ wide?
(2) This issue of spiral cutterheads continues to confuse me. I understand that each insert can be turned four ways to apply a fresh edge. However, isn’t it a huge amount of work to change out a large number of these inserts? They also seem very expensive to purchase replacement parts for, although I realize that each unit is good for four “sharp edges.” Also, how do you tell which individual insert is dull? With standard knives, I can tell when the unit needs sharpened or new knives by the quality of the cuts. With the spiral head, how can you evaluate individual inserts for sharpness?
The two lower priced machines are in my budget while the spiral cutterhead machine would be a stretch….worth it?
I so appreciate any input you can provide. Thanks in advance.
Rick
Replies
All the inserts would wear the same so you wouldn't have a single dull insert but if it got nicked it would be very obvious. Another way to look at the insert head is cost. Carbide lasts 8 time longer than HSS as a rule of thumb and having four edges means 4 times longer. Plus when you think about how long it takes most folks to change knives. Most leave the knives in way too long and are long over due for a knife change for the most part. So a few hundred dollars isn't that much more for the insert head in the long run. Also it's not new technology at all. We've been using it in in commercial shops for years and the knives are pretty standard and will be around for many years to come. As far as time to change the insert knives I suspect you could do them faster than changing HSS knives. Minor issue.
You can joint boards the width of the knives. The table width doesn't determine capacity.
By the way, the stock HSS knives are never really great quality. An upgrade would be some knives from Schmidtt or WKW.
I think going with a spiral, or other than non standard heads, depends on the species you work with most and how much you do. If you are always working with species that are difficult to mill, figured or hard and abrasive and you do a lot of it, the spiral would be a great way to go.
Each cutter wears. If you just turn one in the center of the head, it will likely leave a tell tale mark. Instead, you take one from the edge and swap them. The cutters can last a long time but that depends. You can spend $100 replacing all the inserts. You can also add that cutterhead in the future. You will know if a cutter is nicked just like straight blades. The same is true of overall sharpness. You will feel the dullness when jointing and you can visually look at the edges for light reflection, same as any sharp edge. The jointer isn't often used for a finished face, the planer does that. You usually want a great edge, though.
The parallelogram tables allow the tables to move in an arc to match the cutterhead. This keeps the chip breaking edge of the infeed table closer to the knives. This makes more of a difference in production work where speed and quantity are factors. You don't change the depth of cut very often or very much on a jointer. The difference would be more noticeable when doing deep rabbets on heavy stock, exterior door jambs, for example. Many shops use other methods for those kind of cuts.
I don't know why the tables are different widths. It could be the rabbet ledge. You will only get 8" of cut and the chance that you will run straight enough stock that is exactly 8" is very rare. Jointers are pretty simple machines. You will get great service from an ordinary model with regular knives. You won't regret buying the best but you probably don't need it. The extra money will buy a lot of other tools and cutters.
"The parallelogram tables allow the tables to move in an arc to match the cutterhead. This keeps the chip breaking edge of the infeed table closer to the knives."
Actually the curve on the knife gib is the chip breaker on a jointer. If you look at the gibs on a planer they are flat on the top as there is a seperate chip breaker on a planer. I do have some old text somewhere from my old knife grinding days that talks about the chip breaking feature on a jointer gib.
Just got off the phone with a tech from Schmidtt and Woodtech Enterprises. They confirmed the info on the chip breaker of a jointer gib. One of the techs commented on that issue from an early class he took on knife design and the instructors told him about the function of the curved gib on a jointer.
The advantage of the parallelogram table is the independent adjustement of each corner and you can take a table off and have it reground and reinstall it, unlike a dovetailed type system where the whole jointer has to be reground or the tables will not line up. I much prefer the older style inclines of the Old Oliver or Crescent for table ease of adjustement.
Edited 3/14/2007 9:12 am ET by RickL
http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPRES.exe?PARTNUM=040-610Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
I hope I'm not hijacking the thread here . . . I've been re-reading all the threads on jointers trying to build up to a decision. Maybe you can help me with some confusion. How would you rate the importance of various features? Total width is pretty easy: wider is better, up to the stock I usually use; that points me to 8" minimum and a 10" if the DW can be convinced. But how about hand wheel adjust vs. levers? And you've explained the performance difference between dovetailed and parallelogram; how important overall would you rate it? And is it more or less than the type of adjuster? Any thoughts are greatly appreciated; I know very little about this tool so the various different options are confusing.
Edited 3/14/2007 2:51 pm ET by Anon
I wouldn't worry about the levers versus handwheels. I've used both and have no preference. I can tweak each type just as accurately. All the parallelogram jointers have levers. I'd be looking for a used Crescent or something of that nature. There's not much I'd buy new in large equipment for myself. There are dealers out there with used stuff so that way you have some kind of warranty.
As far as the difference between the dovetailed ways and the paralleogram ways, the p ways offer more support to the tables on the smaller jointers versus the dovetailed ways. On the bigger ones this isn't necessarily so. People agonize to much on tools. There is no reason you can't sell a tool and buy something else down the road. I've owned many different machines over the years and have bought and sold them based on my moving or special jobs.
Thanks very much. I had not realized that parallelogram meant lever; that means fewer permutations of options. I don't have to waste time looking for a jointer with parallelogram beds and handwheel adjustment! You give sound advice on sell it later if it's not what you need anymore, I'm just not sure how well that goes over in the garage shop with the DW overseeing it. I can always try!
Thanks everyone for the helpful information. I racked my brain for a while and spoke to someone in the technical services end of Grizzly. Ultimately I decided to order the 0593 (which is the 0586 with a spiral cutterhead). I considered doing the 0490 + shelix but it would have been another $350 and I would have had to install it (not my strongest suit). At any rate, I'll give some feedback when it arrives. Thanks again.
How's the new jointer working out? Was the spiral head worth it? Ever wish you had the shelix?
I might have had this explained to me before - dumb - but what is the difference between the "spiral head" and the "shelix?"
The spiral is a series of single blades with a twist.
The shelix is a series of indexed 4 sides blades arranged to form a spiral blade. Each can be rotated to expose a fresh side to the wood. This is great if a section gets nicked. As the unit dulls, all the inserts can be rotated to expose a fresh side.
There is also an "indexed spiral" listed at Grizzly. To me it appears to be a sort of "poor man's shelix". It appears to have fewer inserts than the shelix and costs less. It's a replacement head for the spiral cutter.
Look around Grizzly's site and you'll get the idea.
I recall only one review that did any comparison and if memory serves, it wasn't comprehensive or scientific. I think it was in Popular Woodworking but not certain. Maybe someone else has seen some good comparisons.
Edited 8/12/2007 8:22 am ET by Hoppy
Thanks. I have a new planer and I felt inside the other day and it felt like small segments of blades (power off, of course) so I guess it shelix. I think it had "HH" connected to it. Does that mean the same thing as shelix? And is the shelix considered better than the spiral?
Powermatic uses the designation HH for helical head
The shelix with individual (carbide) cutters will last many times longer than the spiral blades.
Hoppy,
What about blade alignment? Seems as though it would/will be greatly simplified.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Love it. Worked out great. Couldn't be happier. No regrets about the shelix.
Rick
Hi Rick,
I bought the 0593 about a year ago. Very good jointer. It arrived very well created. Once assembled I had a chance to really check it out ( the showroom is too far away to see first hand ). The tables were absolutely dead flat. I've used both types of knife systems and if you can afford it, the spiral cutterhead is the way to go. It's great on figured woods and very easy to change the cutters. Just rotate or replace. They're self indexing. I give it two thumbs up!
Paul
ps It's been living in my production cabinet shop
Astro
Please buy the spiro cutter head, decide that you don't want it and trade with me. I'd love to get a spiral cutter head and have thought several times about buying the cutter head assembly itself but that's $400 by itself and then what do I do with these extra sets of blades?
Astro, last week I retrofit my 6" jointer with a Shelix head. You can read the comments and impressions I had at this thread.
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=34962.1
Some of the comments I'm reading on this thread are NOT true about the insert cutter head with the helix design. Go read the thread, spend the extra money, you will find it is money well spent...
Jeff
Rick,
I have had both. It is no contest, spend the money and buy the spiralhead. I have a Bridgewood 12" spiral and have not changed the cutters in three years and they still don't need changing. The whole set of cutters is not much more than a good set of blades from WKW or Schmidt. The stock knives are like butterknife quality.
Terry
I think that is good advice provided that you have the shop space and lifting/transporting infrastructure to support buying such a machine and situating it in the shop (not to mention the mechanical aptitude to refurbish and maintain it).To be honest, I can't imagine shoehorning a larger jointer into my small, cramped shop so a 12 or 16 inch machine wasn't really an option. Perhaps a combination machine of that size would have fit but probably not an older cast iron behemouth jointer. I also don't have a lot of need to face joint boards that big although under the right circumstances I can see the advantage.
Seems like its always better to go with old iron for the long haul provided you can support it. As it is, the 8 inch jointer looks like an aircraft carrier in my small garage shop. Thanks for your input.
Rick
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