Replies

1. 
   MyTacoma | May 29, 2004 12:53am | #1

   You should buy a generic plan and try to design a set based on the structural form of an existing product. You're already taking on a somewhat complicated building project so why not alter a plan to suit your taste? Trying to tackle a problem such as this will dramatically increase your learning curve, and will make you feel better about not spending days looking for that "ideal" plan that may not even exist. That's the challenge of woodworking, and one of the primary reasons why people pursue the hobby and profession.

   I really hate to be incredibly rude or antagonistic, but this is the kind of subject many people on this site feel is causing FWW (and this forum) to deteriorate from a publication for seasoned craftsmen and inspired novices, to a mindless literature for newbies who've forgotten (or don't care) the sole reason why FWW was created in the first place.

1. 
   nikkiwood | May 29, 2004 12:34pm | #3

   Re: Your comment:

   <<<I really hate to be incredibly rude or antagonistic, but this is the kind of subject many people on this site feel is causing FWW (and this forum) to deteriorate from a publication for seasoned craftsmen and inspired novices, to a mindless literature for newbies who've forgotten (or don't care) the sole reason why FWW was created in the first place.>>>

   I have been one of those arguing for a greater emphasis in FWW on the more advanced aspects of the craft, but I really do have to register my disagreement with the spirit of your comment quoted above.

   When I first read "stantheman's" post, I thought the query was kind of jugheaded. He's apparently looking for something that is "not too easy- not too hard" -- and yet did not spend the effort to explain with at least reasonable specificity what he does have in mind. I honestly don't know how one would respond to his request.

   Yet I also found that he has 190 posts on this forum, which makes him a more than active participant. For all we know, maybe he has established contacts with others among us who can lead him to whatever it is he is looking for.

   My point is: everybody should feel completely comfortable in posting any question without fear of criticism or chastisement. I have read elsewhere in this forum about your work for Michael Graves in industrial design, and you know better than anyone, belittling one's contribution (however boneheaded it may be) just makes this guy (and many others) angry or fearful of speaking up. In an ideal forum world, everybody would think before they write, but they should not feel so intimidated that they don't write at all.

   BTW, I thought your advice to him was very useful. I also get the feeling that too many woodworkers spend endless hours searching for the "perfect plan" -- and not nearly enough effort on developing their own design instincts.

2. 
   MikeWalsh | May 29, 2004 04:56pm | #4

   From the Splash Page that comes up when you log on --

   For beginners...Don't be afraid to ask questions. Our forum is teeming with great minds waiting to be tapped.Let us know how it went. We'll toast your hits and troubleshoot your misses.And...Remember us when you make it to the big leagues. When you're all out of questions, come back ready with answers.For veterans...Show new folks the ropes. The larger the community, the richer the discussion.Share your new ideas -- even if they're just hunches. Your hunch could fuel the next great woodworking discovery.And...Be open to new ideas from others. "The best way to have a good idea is to have a lot of ideas." -Dr. Linus PaulingFor one and all...Introduce yourself. We love meeting new folks.Post in the appropriate folders. Housekeeping is not our strong suit.And...Read the House Rules. Courtesy, respect, and common sense are the keys to happiness.That's all we have to say. Now it's your turn. Just log in, take a look around, and jump in anytime. We at Taunton and Fine Woodworking are glad you're here.

   ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

   Sounds like a plan.

   My first picnic table wobbled, too.

2. 
   Michmesquite | May 29, 2004 02:00am | #2

   Stan

   I made this one from a modified NYW plan. There are chair plans available but I haven't started on them yet.

   _________________________________

   Michael in San Jose

   "In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted." Bertrand Russell 

   
3. 
   stancalow | May 29, 2004 08:53pm | #5

   Michaelp - thanks I had not seen that one.  I like the glass inserts.

   Thanks for the comments.  I am not offended.   In the 3+ years I've been visiting this site, I have been acutely aware of the sensitivity some people have to repetitive and simple-minded questions.  That is why I try to frame my posting titles and questions such that the uninterested reader will pass them by.  I thought it was a reasonable question.  Having searched the web multiple times, and searched in Knots as well,  I thought a forum titled "Plans" would be the best palce to ask people about, ohh, I don't know, maybe plans?  I doubt you could restrict such discussion to persuading Richard Jones to part with schematics for Cabinet #73, or Rob Millard with the secrets of his art, if that's where you want to set the bar. 

   As far as the question I asked, I thought it would make sense to someone who had been down the same road.  That is, someone who had experience in making an attractive patio table.   That would most likely be another hobbiest/homeowner, not a professional custom furniture maker.   I find most plans I see to be either too crude (poor joinery), or too complex (likely to fail under harsh conditions).  If I could describe it better than that, I would.  I did not expect to find the perfect table, just some good ideas.  Yes, I am fully capable of designing a table from scratch, and will likely incorporate features from more than one of the designs I have seen.  However, it only makes sense (to me, anyway) to see as many good ideas as possible before slapping something together.  I didn't expect professional designers to come forward, and whip up the perfect table for me. 

   No, I'm not familiar with the founding principles of FWW, since I was probably a teen-ager at the time it was founded.  It exists in the present for me as a tool to help my chosen hobby.  The Knots forum was founded on principles announced on the opening page, and re-printed above.  I read both the magazine and the forum regularly, and recognize the difference.

   I've participated in other forums on other subjects, and the same phenomenon occurs in all of them:  the more popular they get, the broader and more repetitive the base of questions.  The reason that internet forums are so popular is that it is a  conversation between people, not dry dusty reference books.  Of course the answer to all of life's questions, including woodworking, could be found at the local library.  But that doesn't provide the personal contact that comes with conversation, even virtual conversation.  If someone came up to you in the aisle at Home Depot and asked you which screw - flat or phillips - and your answer is F-off, then that's too bad.   On the internet, you have the choice of not answering at all.  If you have an answer, that's great.  If your answer is "square-drive",  even better.

1. 
   nikkiwood | May 29, 2004 09:21pm | #6

   You're right -- it was a reasonable question; it's just that it might have helped if you had fleshed out your query with some of the info you cover here.

   It irks me when I post a question only to be told that the topic was covered 6 months ago. I am certainly not a master of the Knots search function, but it seems cumbersome and ineffective to me. Often, you will type in your search phrase, and what comes back is an endless series of individual thread comments -- many of which are unrelated, or at best tangentially relevant to what you are looking for.

   It's a whole lot easier to just post the question anew, and let people decide if they want to go down that road one more time.

   As in life, it seems to me there are very few new questions in woodworking -- but they are nonetheless worth posing, since the answers may be fresh.

   I am glad you were not offended, and your thoughtful response here puts the issue in perspective.