I have just recently installed an Oneida Super Dust Gorilla and I am looking for a place to buy metal ductwork and fittings for it. I would appreciate any help I can get locating some reasonably priced parts. Also, I would like to get some opinions on the Sears 10″ table saw. Thank you.
Discussion Forum
Get It All!
UNLIMITED Membership is like taking a master class in woodworking for less than $10 a month.
Start Your Free TrialCategories
Discussion Forum
Digital Plans Library
Member exclusive! – Plans for everyone – from beginners to experts – right at your fingertips.
Highlights
-
Shape Your Skills
when you sign up for our emails
This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply. -
Shop Talk Live Podcast -
Our favorite articles and videos -
E-Learning Courses from Fine Woodworking
-
-
Replies
See if you can figure out who deals in industrial level hvac components in your area. Here in the west it is Hercules Industries, they carry 24ga. spiral pipe and welded fittings. Y's are made to order, generally about a week lead time. Recomend that you order the spotwelded fittings as vs. the fully-welded ones, about 1/2 the price and you just wipe the joints with silicone to seal. I use silicone to seal the other joints anyway so it is no addl. expense. Most hvac suppliers should tell you where they get those supplies from as they won't really want to be bothered with your small orders anyway. Reasonably priced parts? Good luck with one. If you try to use 26ga ducting, then the first time that you turn on the super gorilla and there are no open blast gates all of your ducting will be instantly sucked flat. Saw someone do it, and it was hilarious. Trust me, spend the money for 24ga spiral pipe and welded fittings. It is cheaper to do it right thew first time.
Forgot. You spent the money for an Oneida Super Gorilla and you want to buy a Sears table saw? Now I will admit that I do have a strong bias against Sears stuff. But I think that the money would be better spent on a decent cabinet saw. I am very partial to Delta Unisaw, long history and tradition, built here in the US, excellent customer support, and power enough to go thru anything that you might want to feed it down the road. Jet, Grizzly, General all make good saws I hear. Powermatic 66 has long been an industry standard, also built here in the US. Crosscut capacity of 52" is really handy to have, agood fence is priceless. Even if you have to wait a little bit to finance it, it will be money that is better spent. Check online pricing, watch for a decent sale, and you will do okay for yourself.
BigK, thank you for your info on the duct work. Seems that it is spendy stuff no matter where you look! Guess that's why a lot of people opt for using PVC. I have made up my mind to do it right and use the metal. As for the Sears tablesaw, I was asking for a friend. I do have a Delta Contractor's Saw and like it real well. Hey, thanks again.
Reccomend that you inquire about self-cleaning blast gates. They cost about a buck or two more, but for some applications are the only trouble free option. The 5" gates for my jointer and tablesaw have a history of not closing completely. Thought that maybe the cheap blast gates were suspect and so replaced both. Within two weeks the jointer's gate would not close completely again, and I hate recurrent maintanence things. Got some self cleaning gates from woodtek supply (couldn't locate them locally) and the problem was solved. Just a thought.
Oh, I think you're somewhat behind times on where these saws come from. From what I've been told the only one of those saws still made in North America is the General which is manufactured in Canada.
Just had to challenge what I emailed you. Fine, I see how you are. When I get to my shop alittle later this AM I am going to check the tags on my Unisaw, Am pretty damn sure that it was made here in the good old USA. Will be really pissed off if I am wrong on that one.
Actually, after I had posted that message I had a feeling that someone would have a hard time not challenging what I said. Sort of like dangling a piece of cheese in front of the proverbial mouse. And more of a sure thing than fishing.
Edited 3/27/2006 11:25 am ET by BigK
I finally remembered to check the data plate on my Delta Unisaw, and I am very proud to report that it was built in the good old USA. So update your list about where tablesaws are built. And before you say that it must be an older machine, I bought my saw new about 8 years ago. I think that Powermatic 66's are also built in the US. Funny thing about that little tidbit is these are the two saws that are most likely found in any commercial cabinet shop here in the states.
Built in the USA.
Funny, Looking through some of these posts and find two from you that I hadn't seen before. Maybe because I was on a cruise to Venezuela. And the internet was off for a while. Any way, eight years is a long time. I think I got my PM66 about five or six years ago when they were on sale and included two $100.00 savings bonds. It was made in Tennessee. But I think, shortly thereafter, they were taken over by Jet and moved overseas. I just got an eight inch jointer (PJ 882) I think, and it was built in Taiwan. Hardly anything is built in the US anymore. I could be wrong but I think the Unisaw has moved over seas also.
Yeah, I remember that Jet bought out Powermatic. Pretty hard to forget because their customer service ceased to exist for several years. About 1 1/2 years ago one of the Rockler guys made it a point to introduce me to the Jet/Powermatic rep at the woodworkers show, knowing how pissed off I was at them about that very issue. The rep tried to sell me some more equipment, I lit into him pretty hard about how I would never waste my money on a corp. that did not have the basic courtesy to provide customer support for the stuff that they sold. I ranted about things like unreturned phone calls, worthless waurantees, rude service reps, etc.
I must not have been the only person to give them a peice of my mind about this problem because I am happy to report that the last time that I had to call with a question about one of their machines the customer support was a whole hell of a lot better than it was before.
It would be a real shame if all of their machinery is now built overseas. I bought a Delta DJ-20 jointer about 4 years ago and noticed that it too was built in Tiawan. Made me rather sad to see that. I try to go out of my way wherever I can to support American jobs.
More hilarious than anything else, but when I got my PM66, there was something missing and I just couldn't get any satisfaction from Tool Crib, where I bought it. The instructions just didn't cover that part of the assembly so they told me to call the company. When I called them we decided I needed the bolt and nut kit which they sent and I completed assembly. Two or three years later I was looking for something to hold some plastic pipe while I cut it into lengths. The front pipe on the saw was just the ticket. But when I shoved the plastic pipe in there -- you guessed it. The original nut and bolt package slipped out.
I also have a Unisaw, i think mine even has a USA flag afixed to it, but i don't think it was built in the USA. Maybe assembled in the USA but likely machined off shore. How did you confirm built in the USA? I guess it really doesn't matter, still a good saw.
Aaron
On the back side (outfeed side) on my saw I found ####sticker and the data plate, both making their proclamation as to where the saw was made. You using the unifence? I am, think that it is superior to the biesemeyer style because of the ability to bring the fence out in front of the blade when ripping full sheets of stock.
As a side thought, my DJ-20 was made in Tiawan. This is plainly listed on the bottom right hand corner of both data plates. I wish that this wasn't the case. I would rather support American workers than anyone else.
Thanks for the info. I do like the unifence for that reason and for cutting sholders on tenons. I know those who love the Besimeyer like it a lot and i'm sure being able to go from right to left of the blade would be nice without the extra effort the unifence takes but for me i rarely do that.
Aaron
I looked around for a local source of piping, elbows and "Y" fittings, blast gates etc. and I found that the best price was with Oneida. Local supp;liers were much more expensive. $15.00 for a 4" blast gate.
I recently purchased some elbows and adapters at the local Farm Bureau. Also, Lowes has some stuff. If it is labeld for dust collection it is more expensive.
Use standard metal heating duct from Home Depot or the like. That's what I've done with my cyclone, and it works just fine. It is less expensive than Oneida's ductwork, and it is available locally so you can easily get that part you didn't think you might need.
The piping at our local Home Depot is a lighter gage than that which Oneida supplies. It is at least one or two gages thinner and dents too easy.
Yes, the HD duct is a thinner gauge than the Oneida duct. Like I said, I use it in my cyclone rig, and it works just fine.
HVAC duct and dust collection duct are two different animals. Not only is the thickness, or gauge, different, but the way air is moved is very different. HVAC duct is used in positive pressure conditions (blowing); dust collection is a negative pressure (sucking) situation. Also. air and dust are different products to move through a pipe at high speed. The straight sections of pipe are interchangeable, but the elbows and y's for dust collection have larger radii, and the joints are designed to seal much better. Spiral pipe is the gold standard for metal duct, not the typical snap-lock sections you get at Home Depot. Remember that a vacuum in light gauge HVAC pipe may actually cause the pipe to "oil-can", or pop when the system is turned on and off.
Regardless of what metal pipe you use, make sure it is grounded, because the danger of a dust explosion from static electricity does potentially exist.
Hmm... Let's take your points one by one....
HVAC duct and dust collection duct are two different animals. Not only is the thickness, or gauge, different, but the way air is moved is very different. HVAC duct is used in positive pressure conditions (blowing); dust collection is a negative pressure (sucking) situation.
Why does that matter? In both situations, air moves from an area of higher pressure to an area of lower pressure.
Also. air and dust are different products to move through a pipe at high speed. The straight sections of pipe are interchangeable, but the elbows and y's for dust collection have larger radii,
With the HVAC duct, larger radii can be formed by concatenating 45 degree bends, or by using adjustable bends.
and the joints are designed to seal much better.
A typical small-shop cyclone may be moving 800-1500 cfm -- a whole lot of air. A little leaking is inconsequential. And if you're really concerned, HVAC aluminum duct tape will drop the leaks to zero.
Spiral pipe is the gold standard for metal duct, not the typical snap-lock sections you get at Home Depot.
My point is that snap-lock does the job, at a considerable cost savings. Why pay more?
Remember that a vacuum in light gauge HVAC pipe may actually cause the pipe to "oil-can", or pop when the system is turned on and off.
Gee, for the cost difference, I'd put up with a pop or two. (And for the record, my HVAC-ducted system doesn't pop.)
Forget the ground strap too, if you really like to live on the edge.
I believe the poster was looking for advice that would provide satistactory results, not just the cheapest price. You stated your opinion based on your own apparently limited experience. I, and some of the other posters here, are sharing information that is the concensus of the industry for ducting a dust collection system. There is no need for you to try to dismantle this information. I think the readers can decide for themselves what applies and is practical for their own situations. The facts that I stated are correct and can be found easily in the literature pertaining to the subject.
Edited 3/30/2006 11:38 pm ET by Vicejaws
There is a lot questionable information presented here. Read
http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/Ducting.cfm
then see if you have any further questions.
Good luck,
Todd
Self cleaning blast gates at Lee Vallley are great and cheap.
With respect to ductwork, as noted, stay away from the stuff at home depot - it can collapse due to the suction and the elbows creat too much friction.
In terms of spiral ductwork, elbows, etc., the most important thing is the thickness of the material. So, phone up an HVAC place and ask them if that carry the appropriate guage of metal. Most carry a limited supply of elbows, etc., as well. I found a great supplier up here (www.welbecksawmill.com/ that actually stocks most of the stuff, but I doubt shipping pipe is cost effective.
In any event, as you may have guess by now, dust collection = religion for some folks. I have found that you can abandon the mathematical elegance of a perfect solution and arrive at very good results by following the Oneida guide. Remember to use aluminum tape on your joints and stuff.
What do I mean about good results? No chips come out of the back of my planer.
As for Sears, they used to sell ok but overpriced tools. Now they sell crappy overpriced tools. You are better off spending the money upmarket for quality or downmarket for price.
A couple sources of metal pipe that clamps together very easily are http://www.nordfab.com and http://www.kbduct.com
I purchased from the latter and am quite happy.
CP, take a look at the Bill Pentz site, if you haven't already. You might want to consider using S&D pipe as he describes. Much less expensive than the metal and would do a fine job.
As to the Sears saw, if you're speaking of the "ZIP code" saw -- their somewhat new (2 years?) hybrid, lots of good reports on that saw, especially if you get the better model with the Beismeyer fence. I'm a certified Craftsman basher, but this saw is a different critter altogether, from what users are reporting. I know it's hard to search Knots right now, because of this screwed-up structure, but look through "all messages" in power tools and you'll find some info about it.
Main drawback I see with it is that, unless you've got a bunch of coupons and specials working together, you can get a Grizzly 1023S cabinet saw for the same price range.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Some excerpts from the Federal Trade Commission w site:
The Standard For Unqualified Made In USA Claims
What is the standard for a product to be called Made in USA without qualification?
For a product to be called Made in USA, or claimed to be of domestic origin without qualifications or limits on the claim, the product must be "all or virtually all" made in the U.S. The term "United States," as referred to in the Enforcement Policy Statement, includes the 50 states, the District of Columbia, and the U.S. territories and possessions.
What does "all or virtually all" mean?
"All or virtually all" means that all significant parts and processing that go into the product must be of U.S. origin. That is, the product should contain no — or negligible — foreign content.
Qualified Claims
What is a qualified Made in USA claim?
A qualified Made in USA claim describes the extent, amount or type of a product’s domestic content or processing; it indicates that the product isn’t entirely of domestic origin.
When is a qualified Made in USA claim appropriate?
A qualified Made in USA claim is appropriate for products that include U.S. content or processing but don’t meet the criteria for making an unqualified Made in USA claim. Because even qualified claims may imply more domestic content than exists, manufacturers or marketers must exercise care when making these claims. That is, avoid qualified claims unless the product has a significant amount of U.S. content or U.S. processing. A qualified Made in USA claim, like an unqualified claim, must be truthful and substantiated.
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/madeusa.htm
More?
American Automobile Labeling Act — Requires that each automobile manufactured on or after October 1, 1994, for sale in the U.S. bear a label disclosing where the car was assembled, the percentage of equipment that originated in the U.S. and Canada, and the country of origin of the engine and transmission. Any representation that a car marketer makes that is required by the AALA is exempt from the Commission’s policy. When a company makes claims in advertising or promotional materials that go beyond the AALA requirements, it will be held to the Commission’s standard. For more information, call the
Consumer Programs Division of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (202-366-0846).
I believe I have added valuable content to the discussion. My research shows these comments to be totally false:
Not that it really matters, but I doubt that Made in America today really means that. More like "Assembled in the U.S." would be the real case. -Vicejaws
Many, but not all, American-made products have a high import content. -Vicejaws
It also answers this speculative and accusing question.
I am wondering now if U.S. car makers are claiming that their cars are made in America. I bet not. You might call this a sin of omission. -Vicejaws
Also, based on my research and this:
I finally remembered to check the data plate on my Delta Unisaw, and I am very proud to report that it was built in the good old USA. -BigK
we can conclude that the Unisaw was "all or virtually all" made in the U.S. at the time of its purchase.
Finally, I may not have answered the questions that you wanted answered, but your condescension is unnecessary.
Todd
What condescension are you talking about? What I wrote was in response to something about that no tablesaws are built here in the US anymore. That statement was taken as both a challenge and an affront. I answered the party responsible and showed that his comments were without merit. While many tools are built overseas, to assume that all are is dangerous for the security of American jobs and the state of the American economy. Rather than do a lot of research as to where each brandname actually builds their tablesaw, I chose to check the labeling on my personal Delta Unisaw and respond accordingly. If you don't like the tone of my response, that is your problem. I don't appreciate the tone of your particular brand of BS either.
BigK,You are making a mistake. Look closely and you will notice that messages 7947.21, 7947.23, 7947.25, and 7947.27, have been deleted. I never got to read 7947.27, so it must have been particularly nasty as it triggered the deletion of all of his messages.My response that you referring to was toward message 7947.25, which was not authored by you. In a nut shell, it characterized my previous messages (7947.22 and 7947.24) as "not answering any of the questions posed in the discussion". I found it to be condescending, rude, and uncalled for.I have no beef with you.Todd
I'm sorry that we got our wires crossed up. Sounded like you were attacking me and I wasn't in the mood to play nicely. It took me a while to figure out how to find your response. Seems when FWW went to the new site that some connections got lost in the process. In fact my old bookmark doesn't work anymore either; had to send them a complaint about the change to get directions back to the chatroom. Anyway, no hard feelings here. Thanks for setting me straight.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled