Replies

1. 
   IanC | Sep 10, 2003 04:44pm | #1

   Tony, You could glue and clamp veneer to both sides of the tenon and then re-size them when the glue has cured.  I don't care for the notion of gap filling glues.

2. 
   Julmer | Sep 10, 2003 10:48pm | #2

   Veneering to the tenons and then recutting/planing/sanding to fit has worked the past for me when I've done the same thing.

   I'm working on a pair of Morris Chairs now also. Mine will have thru tenons. If your are the same, the fix might show in the exposed portion of the tenon if your not careful.  I would suggest that the "veneer" material be cut from the waste material you cut off making the tenons. Try to match color and grain direction.

1. 
   adrienne4468 | Sep 10, 2003 11:14pm | #3

   These will have through tennons and yes I did save the stock from the cheeks that I cut as soon as I noticed they were getting smaller. I can glue these back on and recut the cheeks on the thin ones. Now that I'm going to have to do that would you guys suggest that I pin the tennons with dowels. I can make the dowels to match the grain by making them with the face grain showing so they won't stick out or plan them to show as a planned step in the jointery. Which would look better and are they needed for strength? I don't think that the glued on stock will show because it will only end up being less than 1/32". With the chamfers on the end of the tennons that stick through about 1/4" there won't be enough to notice. (I hope) anyway they will look good from 50 yards!

1. 
   IanC | Sep 10, 2003 11:45pm | #4

   Tony, I really don't think the dowels will add much strength.  If the glue on the tenon cheeks ever failed, yes the dowel would hold the joint together but you'd still have a loose joint.  And it's not likely to fail if the fit is decent.  From a decorative standpoint on mission furniture, I like to cut square holes for square pegs with a 1/4" or 3/8" mortising chisel on the drill press.  These don't add much strength, if any, either but I think the squares lend themselves well to the style. I either flush them or put about a 25* chamfered dome  on them.  The finish darkens the end grain for a nice contrast.  But be selective where you use them, it can be over done.

   Ian

   Edited 9/10/2003 4:47:01 PM ET by IANCUMMINS

2. 
   Julmer | Sep 11, 2003 02:02am | #5

   I agree with the other post to your question about pinning the tenons.

   Personally, I plan to put them in my chairs.  Just another custom touch.

1. 
   adrienne4468 | Sep 11, 2003 03:36pm | #6

   OK, This all sounds good to me. Now only 1 more question, if the mortise on the legs of the chair is .513 using calipers (I am a machinist so I can get pretty picky) what is the optimum size that the tennons should be. I am going to use yellow wood glue for the joint. I don't like to mess around with epoxy even though in some cases it is stronger.

   Thank you for answering my question.

   Tony

1. 
   garth | Sep 11, 2003 06:54pm | #7

   The last info I have seen was .003 per glue joint, you have two glue joints - one on each side of the tenon - so if this info is correct the tenon should be .507.

   Scott T.

2. 
   Elcoholic | Sep 11, 2003 10:56pm | #8

   Watch it "Caliper Boy" :).  If you mill the joint right before assembly you can get away with real close tolerences.  But the fresh faces of the tenon cheeks and the mortise walls are going to take on moisture and swell a little.  I machine to a hand tight fit.  When I get around to assembly most still fit, but some will be too tight.  Never had any get more loose over time.  I keep my Fein Multimaster handy and just kiss the cheeks a little to get back to a sweet hand fit.  Or if I'm feeling the purist I'll grab the LN Shoulder and Block Planes.  BTW I gauge hand tight by removal not insertion.  John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking

   Life is tough.  It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne

3. 
   yotonyb | Sep 12, 2003 12:54am | #9

   On the undersized tenons -- glue the cheeks back on and re-cut. If the tenon is centered on the rail, glue the cheeks back on BOTH faces and pare equal amounts off BOTH faces to sneak-up on your final dimension. Presuming this was done on a table saw with a tenoning jig, I set the blade about a 1/16" - 1/32" lower when I re-cut the cheeks then I pare away the remaining ridge with a chisel. If you try to raise the blade right to the shoulder, you run the risk of going too high, cutting into the shoulder and leaving an "entrance and exit wound" at the top and bottom of the rail.

   You won't see the repair on a through tenon. You're error is very small..1/40" overall, or 1/80" on each cheek. Once the tenon is chamfered, you won't see it at all.

   I'm with ELCO on the use of the calipers...you should be cutting to match the size of the mortise, not a measurement on the calipers. Once the mortises are cut, I rely on a series of test cuts and hand fittings to "sneak-up" on my final dimension and final set-up with the tenoning jig.

   Good luck and good skill! Please post pictures when it's complete!

   tony b.

4. 
   AlanTurner | Sep 12, 2003 02:02am | #10

   I sneak up on the tenon fit as well, but still leave them slightly oversized, and then bring them in with a rabbet or shoulder plane.  Couple of thousandths at a time,  Only takes a short time to fit each, and then they are right on, at the time of glue up.

   Alan

   Edited 9/12/2003 6:59:11 AM ET by s4s

5. 
   adrienne4468 | Sep 15, 2003 04:05pm | #11

   One more thing, does anyone finish just the end of the tennon before glue up so it is easier to get the access glue off? I have never prefinished wood before glue up and was wondering if this was the way to go.

6. 
   AlanTurner | Sep 15, 2003 04:17pm | #12

   By "end of the tenon" I assume you mean the area near the shoulder.  If I understood correctly, some people, here and elsewhere, do so.  I don't prefinish, except where I am staining one member, but not both.  Such as Cherry legs (stained), into a maple apron, or some such thing.  Then I stain only.  Glue spueeze out is not a problem for me on M&T because I use so little glue that I basically never get any squeeze out.  The glue does no good on the shoulder becuase that is an end grain joint, and the glue won't help.  So, I very lightly paint the tenon with glue, and then more liberally, but not excessivley, place glue on the sides of the mortise.  Be sure to slightly chamfer the ends of the tenon so that it does not act like a glue scraper, and leave about 1/16" between the end of the tenon and the bottom of the mortise.  I use the 10 cent disposable glue brushes, but soak and rinse them, and reuse them.  Just cheap, I guess.  Bought a gross of them cheap several years ago, and still have most of them.

   Alan

7. 
   adrienne4468 | Sep 15, 2003 04:30pm | #13

   Actually these are through tennons and I was talking about the end of the tennon that will be going all the way through. They will have about a 1/16 chamfer on the end and I was wondering about finishing the wood about 3/8" from the end. I have read that this is good practice from some sources and was wondering about the opinions on this page.

8. 
   AlanTurner | Sep 15, 2003 05:30pm | #14

   I have never done through tenons on a finished piece of furniture, but it sounds like a good ideal.

   Alan

9. 
   Julmer | Sep 15, 2003 10:15pm | #15

   I would finish the ends of the tenons to avoid getting glue on the exposed thru tip.  For my Morris chairs I will probably finish almost all of the pcs before final glue up. I wrap/tape the tenon areas to keep them free of finish and stuff paper or foam into mortises to keep them clean.

   I'm a novice spray finisher and having most of my work flat minimizes drips, sags, and under/over coating. It's also easier to sand the individual pcs between coats.

3. 
   ian | Sep 16, 2003 04:10pm | #17

   Tony, Sandor Nagyszalanczy in Fixing and Avoiding Woodworking Mistakes (Taunton, but currently out of print) suggests either veneer shims that can be glued onto the tennon cheeks at the same time you assemble the joint (check with a dry fit first), or with a through tennon you could wedge the tennon using a wedge placed diagonally in the tennon.  

1. 
   adrienne4468 | Sep 16, 2003 04:39pm | #18

   I more like the idea of glueing the veneer to the cheeks. I saved the stock when I cut it off so it will be short of the shoulder by a saw width. That will give me clearence to recut the cheeks without touching the shoulder. they are through tennons so I will have plenty of glue surface and the length of the mortises are almost a perfect fit. I don't at this time have any hand planes. I have been interested in finding one or two and learning how to use them but lack of funds have slowed me down.

   Tony

1. 
   ian | Sep 16, 2003 05:04pm | #19

   Hopefully Eddie will see this thread and respond.  If you do a veneer repair you have the option of glueing the veneer to the cheeks and allowing it to dry before you glue the joint up (clamping the veneer to the cheeks with adequate pressure can be difficult), or gluing both the joint and the veneer in the same operation.  Sandor seems to lean towards using a commercial veneer, rather than one you have sawn yourself.  Part of the technique is to trim the cheek so that after applying the veneer only a little work is required to make the joint fit.  I'd be a little concerned re the quality of the glue surface if you are thinking of gluing the material cut off the cheeks back on and then recutting the tennon. 

3. 
   JeffKurtz | Sep 15, 2003 11:30pm | #16

   Tony,

   Suggest you check out Jeff Gorman's web site for another opinion.  He doesn't think gluing a piece of veneer to the tenon face provides sufficient strength (lack of "longitudinal continuity") and offers another solution.  http://www.amgron.clara.net/blunders/falsetenons.htm

   Jeff