Hi All,
Whenever I see David Marks use loose tenon joinery (and he uses it a lot), I think “That’s cool – and I don’t have to cut the tenons on the mating piece!” But I can’t say I’ve ever heard anyone else talk about it, and I wonder what others with more experience – i.e., most of you – think about it. Are there applications where it’s inappropriate?
Since I rout all my mortises anyway, not having to chop out the corners would also be a great convenience. I’ll be happy to know what you think.
P.S. – For those of you who already saw this on Tool Talk, sorry for the redundancy.
Thanks,
Mitch
“I’m always humbled by how much I DON’T know…”
Replies
Mitch,
Have used it on several projects; it seems much more efficient to cut 2 mortises per joint rather than 1 mortise and 1 tenon. Only problem I have experienced is, cutting mortises in long rails is awkward. I have to either angle the workpiece in the vise or stand on a stool or ladder.
DM,
Thanks for the response. Neither of those seems a comfortable, or even safe, solution.
Have you thought about routing the mortises on a table? Nick Engler had an extra-long mortising jig on the cover of PW a few months back.
Also, I have confess my ignorance - what kind of a project were you doing that you used a loose tenon joint in a long rail for?
Thanks again,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
"... Whenever I see David Marks use loose tenon joinery (and he uses it a lot), I think "That's cool - and I don't have to cut the tenons on the mating piece!" But I can't say I've ever heard anyone else talk about it, and I wonder what others with more experience - i.e., most of you - think about it. Are there applications where it's inappropriate? ..."
Mvac,
I've used 'loose' tenon joinery on projects ranging from a small side table to a king-size (and very heavy) headboard. There's no reason for it not to work in place of integral tenons. One thing to consider is that if you take the 'loose' tenon and glue it into one side of the joint, it's no longer loose. Tests consistently show a glue joint to be stronger than the adjacent wood, so it stands to reason that a mortise-and-loose-tenon joint could be stronger than a standard mortise-and-tenon. (That last sentence will surely raise some comments)
One situation where an integral tenon might still be more appropriate is the through tenon on Arts & Craft furniture. Even then, one could utilize a loose tenon long enough to extend through the mating piece.
Regards,
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting
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Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
Thanks, Bill.
I was thinking initially that the open-M&T joint with projecting tenon and wedge - a very popular Arts & Crafts joint - would be the exception. Still I suppose you could craft the tenon loose, glue the "closed" side first, and tap the wedge in once the glue had cured.
As I mentioned, I'm very pleased to find loose tenons endorsed and being used by so many experienced craftspeople - So why isn't more written about it? I don't think I've read an article on it in any magazine. PopWood had a special issue a few months back - something like "Joinery Essentials," and no mention of this technique was made anywhere in the edition. What gives? Is there an Integral Tenon-Makers Union or lobbying group I haven't heard of? :-)Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
>> So why isn't more written about it?How much more do you want? I've seen at least three loose tenon articles in FWW over the years, plus mentions of loose tenons in a number of shorter features.
So why isn't more written about it?
"How much more do you want? I've seen at least three loose tenon articles in FWW over the years, plus mentions of loose tenons in a number of shorter features."
Whoa there Uncle Dunc!
In the infamous words of Al Gore, "You don't have get snippy about it." :-)
While it may well be that FWW has written three or more articles re: loose tenons, I haven't seen them.
And probably more importantly, I don't recall seeing a project in any of the WW mags that featured loose tenon joinery. If tenons are involved, it's always traditional M&T joints. I don't subscribe to FWW, but rather pick up only those issues that have articles or projects of some interest to me. So that may be a reason I haven't seen it. But I do subscribe to Wood, ShopNotes, Popular Woodworking and American Woodworker. I haven't seen any reference to loose tenons in any of those pubs either.
I continue to ask the question because, as evidenced by the vast majority of opinions here, loose tenons are generally regarded to be just as strong or stronger that trad. M&T, and are way more convenient and efficient. Given those observations, I'd expect to see many more, if not a majority of, projects using that technique, as well articles describing its usage.
If there were one loose tenon article for every article I see about sharpening, dust collection, cutting dovetails, making miter/crosscut sleds, etc., etc., I'd have a wealth of articles to read about loose tenon joinery.
That was my point, and I hope I've made it clearer here.
Regards,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
So why isn't more written about it?
"How much more do you want? I've seen at least three loose tenon articles in FWW over the years, plus mentions of loose tenons in a number of shorter features."
"... I don't recall seeing a project in any of the WW mags that featured loose tenon joinery. If tenons are involved, it's always traditional M&T joints. ..."
I think you've answered your own question then you use the term "traditional M&T joints". Much of what is published might be shown with traditional approaches in construction, but that doesn't mean we'd all build the project that way. Any project plan that shows M&T joints can be built with loose tenons, so why would a plan have to be drawn with them?
When I did a search on the FWW website, I got six hits on articles. A Google search returns 1,440 hits. There's a product line of loose tenons named "Beadlock". A little research goes a long way.
Regards,
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
Bill,
Alright, now you're just trying to make me look bad! :-)
Your point about any "traditional" M&T joint being adabtable to a loose tenon joint is well taken. And thanks for the tips on where to find more loose-tenon-related articles. But I still maintain my question (This is also known as "Beating a dead horse") - I think a lot of people would rather rout two mortises than cut an integral tenon; So why don't we see the joint featured in more projects?
While I can adapt the joint if I'm thinking about it, the change isn't immaterial. I just think others would benefit from seeing frequent use of the joint. Newbies especially would come to realize that LT joints are good enough for experienced woodworkers, and therefore good enough for them.
Regards,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
As a newbie I have to ask the question "why is it easier to do a loose tenon than a traditional?" I haven't done it much but it seems it would be rather easy to cut a traditional tenon on a table saw if you have a reasonable tenoning jig. what is the best way to mill the loose tenon? would appreciate any comments to enlighten me.
Frank
Edited 1/28/2005 2:27 pm ET by Frank
Frank,
I think it is MUCH easier to cut the tenon on a table saw, then to do all loose tenon work, once one has set up the jig and had some experience doing it. There is a lot of opportunity to do loose tenon work, but putting a mortise in the end of a piece is, IMHO a little harder to do than to cut a tenon on a table saw.
That said, there are very good jigs, both commercial and home-brew that do make putting the mortise into the end grain an easy and accurate process.
Rich
Rich and Frank,
I respectfully disagree about the relative ease and convenience of tenon-cutting vs. routing two mortises.
For one thing, I have at least three ways of routing mortises with great ease; and I don't have to square a shoulder or worry about tenon length.
Second, depending on the tenon you're cutting, it could take up to five steps (usually four). Loose tenon involves tworouted mortises and a loose tenon insertion.
Third, my preference comes from experience. Several months ago I built a Brazilian Cherry top / Sugar Maple base desk with 44 integral hidden M&T joints. My life would have been a lot easier, and fitting would have been less of a PITA for each joint, had I used loose tenons.
All that said, I did make both a mortising jig and a tenoning jig, both of which work very well. There are also a number of tenoning jigs on the market, but they all require some non-trivial setup time before making your cuts. So, to each his own - that's one of the things that makes WW so interesting. There are usually several ways of accomplishing the same thing, and much of the choice has to do with personal preference.
Btw, Rich, what is it about routing a mortise that makes it less attarctive to you?
Best regards,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
mvac,
You misunderstood me. I DO route my mortises. I also have no quarrel with loose tenon joints. and I use them. I only said, that once one has set up a jig for cutting tenons on the table saw, and really knows how to use it, it is easier to make a tenon on the end of a board than to route a mortise there.
I didn't say there was anything wrong with routing a mortise in the end of the stock. However, and it's really a minor point, the piece with the integral tenon is a little stronger than a spline glued into a mortise in end grain. Don't beat that to death. In the real world of furniture making, the difference is inconsequential.
Rich
Sorry, Frank. I misinterpreted your point. Thanks for the clarification.
Regards,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
Rather than round over the edges of the strip from which the loose tenons are milled, would it be just as easy and effective to knock off the edges with a block plane. It would save one set up on the router table.
Frank
"Rather than round over the edges of the strip from which the loose tenons are milled, would it be just as easy and effective to knock off the edges with a block plane. It would save one set up on the router table. ..."
No reason to believe that wouldn't work well. It takes me only a minute or less to put a roundover bit in my table router and then a few seconds to run a strip.
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
"Rather than round over the edges of the strip from which the loose tenons are milled, would it be just as easy and effective to knock off the edges with a block plane."
Frank,
I'm a little confused. If I want the tenons to fit snugly in my 1/4" mortise with fully rounded ends, wouldn't it be much more time consuming to round them with a block plane, especially if I'm doing a stick of several feet?Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
"what is the best way to mill the loose tenon?"
Frank,
Sorry, I didn't answer your question. Usually I tale a length of the same stock, cut to the width and length of the mortise, and use a 1/4" roundover bit to get the edges round, then cut the strip into tenons with the appropriate depth. Someone mentioned there are commercial tools for this, but they're not necessary.
One other important advantage I forgot to mention: With loose tenons, there's no need to chisel the mortise corners, which is a big PITA, unless you have a hollow chisel mortiser.
Cheers,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
Been using loose tenons for over 20 years with no problems. Loose tenons and horizontal slot mortisers are of European technology and go back to the 50's.
I use them whenever I can. It's a great way to ensure a solid fit and, as Bill mentioned, the glue makes the joint stronger than a standard M/T, provided you are using the same wood and have a proper fit. I keep stock tenon material around, and need only to cut it to size and round off the edges to finish the joint.
Another thing loose tenons have going for them is if you use a contrasting wood in a through tenon joint, you get a very decorative joint. See an example in the attached photo (and see if you can count all the "loose" tenons in the figure.
Cheers
Paul,
Lessee... 4 wedged through tenons on each leg (one long w/ 2 wedges and others w/ a single wedge)? Am I even close? Do I win a prize? :-)
Thanks. I'm glad to see no structural concerns, and, as mentioned, the possibility exists that the loose tenon's actually stronger than the integral.Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
Close -- the table top is also attached to the skirt with a loose tenon where the top meets the skirt. That tenon is only glued at the very center to allow for cross-grain movement, like a bread board joint.
"Close -- the table top is also attached to the skirt with a loose tenon where the top meets the skirt. That tenon is only glued at the very center to allow for cross-grain movement, like a bread board joint."
Darn! I was sure I had that one...Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
Btw, That's a really beautiful piece, in terms of both design and wood species - I hope to get half that far by the time I kick the bucket...Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
Paul,
On your table, are the skirts solid or are they built up with the carving as an onlay to a backer?
Beautiful work, by the way!
Regards,
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
Thanks Bill for the kind words. The skirts are solid (7/8 paduak), much of the relief was obtained with a router, followed by hand shaping. You can see how I did it at http://home.comcast.net/~paulchapko/gallery.html -- go to the "Hall Table".
Paul, I see at your link you use slate..
I have a beautiful 3' X 6' about 3 inches thick slab full of 'sea creatures?' that I used for a bench I made for the yard long ago. I think I just polished the top with wet/dry sandpaper and ALOT of hours! Edges are rough and the layers seem fairly uniform.
How do you cut your slate? I just have a small tile saw and if I could pick up that hunk O' rock again, it would just crush me and my saw!
I was thinking (which tends to get me in trouble).. I said brain "Brain, just split it with a hunk of iron stupid".. Well... You have any opinions?
Thanks in advance.
Most slate splits easily in the horizontal plane, but is otherwise brittle and relatively soft. For a chunk the size you have, I would use a diamond tipped masonry blade. To handle something 3" thick, you might want to rent a gas powered, water-cooled saw from your neighborhood tool rental shop.
I cut thinner (3/8") pieces of slate using a tile cutter. They too can be rented. You could also get by with a masonry blade in a circular saw, but do the cutting outside, as the dust is awful. It also gunks up your saw big time!
I'd enjoy seeing a photo of your slate. I think stone is a wonderful medium to use with wood. I'm designing a pair of display tables right now that will have a 12" square of slate that looks like birdseye maple in black and silver. It's stunning and will look quite good as a top to a cherry table. More WW'ers should try to use stone occasionally!
Paul
For me, it depends on the process. If I need many M&T joints, I'll use the loose tenon method, but if it's only say one table, it's just as easy and efficient to cut the tenons.
Stucturally, I've found them to be equally as strong, no real concerns there.
Hope this helps.
I think loose tenon joinery is probably more efficient time wise. I tried on a couple of projects several years ago, but I just didn't like how it made me feel. I guess I'm just too old of a dog, but I just feel more comfortable with regular M&T joinery. Somehow just feels a bit better to me. I do a lot of throught mortises, but even when I don't, I prefer a regular tenon. Every time I watch Woodworks, I think to myself that the project would have been better with a solid tenon. I know, I know, I'm just being an irrational luddite.
Alan & Lynette Mikkelsen, Mountain View Farm, est. 1934, Gardens & Fine Woodworking, St. Ignatius, MT
One other benefit of loose tenon joinery is that you do not have the problem of getting all your tenon shoulders nice and square. As you point out, a loose tenons is more efficient to make than a traditional one, in part since you don't need to spend time planing or chiseling the shoulders. But besides the efficiency, it also is less "risky" in that you don't have to worry about making an error when squaring the shoulders.
In sum, faster, less chance of screwing up, and stronger. What's not to like?
Don't get me wrong, there's probably nothing not to like. I'm just being irrational! There's several in the Cafe section that will verify that remark........Alan & Lynette Mikkelsen, Mountain View Farm, est. 1934, Gardens & Fine Woodworking, St. Ignatius, MT
I'm just as irrational--or almost. I still do plenty of traditional M/T work, just not always. I kind of agree--loose tenon work is more efficient, etc., but you don't get that warm feeling when you're done like when you do after cutting traditional tenons.
Paul,
I don't know about that warm feeling so much, especially with hidden tenons. I get much more of a kick and sense of accomplishment from hand-cutting a tight set of dovetails - that makes me glow for a few days...
And, while I love the making of furniture, I especially love the making of furniture I designed (rudimentary compared to yours). Since it's not my day job, anything I can do to save time safely is IMHO worth doing.
Regards,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
For what it's worth I'm reading Tage Frid's epic "Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking". Most will agree that Frid knew a thing or two about fine woodworking. On page 172 he states "The same method is often substituted for a mortise and tenon (loose tenon). It is not as strong, but in most cases is sufficient. It is much easier to make especially with compound miters."
I recommend that anyone who wants to build fine furniture efficiently get a hold of a copy of this book and read it.
Sawdust,
I have the combined Volumes 1 & 2 of the Frid's seminal book (Unfortunately, he passed away fairly recently), and have learned a great deal from it. I do find some of it dated, though, and who knows if in an updated version he would have expressed a different opinion about loose tenons? Probably not, as we tend to stick with what we know and do best.
But it's a great rescource, no doubt.
Thanks,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
It seems to me that one of the best circumstances for the loose tenon is when the joined parts are not square to one another. The mortises are easy to cut square to the joining surfaces, and the grain in the tenon is oriented for strength, both in contrast to an angled tenon of a standard M&T.
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