Hi All – I currently own #’s 3, 4, 4.5 and 5 bench planes, all standard angles. I’d like to add either a low angle smoother or jack plane to my stable. I’d very much appreciate any thoughts on which of those might find to be more useful given my existing set up. I’m using these tools for basic furniture making (mainly tables and chairs), nothing out of the ordinary.
(Separately, if anyone has any feelings on LV or LN versions of these tools I’d be interested to hear thosethougts as well, but i’m not too worried about that more interested in the smoother v. the jack question).
thanks much, tony.
Replies
Hi Tony,
Do you have a jointer plane?
yes, i number 7, but with a regular and high angle frog, not a la frog. personally, i would have thought that the la smoother would have made more sense then the jack, but the la jack seems to be a far more popular tool, not sure if this is really the case and if so why.
I have both the LN Low Angle Jack & Smoother. I have had such good luck with them that I don't own another Jack. I do have several smoothers though.
Can't say much a about the LV as I've never used or owned one, but from what others here have said, the quality is there for the price.
Tony,
I have the LN 62 low angle Jack plane and as with everything from LN this is a very high quality tool.
It is very versatile and can be used on end grain and for smoothing. It is a very basic plane though, with no means for lateral blade adjustment. You have to actually move the blade by hand. In my opinion, it serves well as a bench plane, but won't replace a good bench plane, which is more comfortable, with longer blade life between sharpening sessions.
If you already have a #5 plane, which is also referred to as a Jack plane, you have a better tool suited to smoothing, than the low angle Jack. If end grain is the objective, look at the range of block planes available.
A #6 Bench plane would make a good addition to your stable.
Hi Jellyrug,
Like Tony, I was also considering getting a LA Jack or Smoother from Lie-Nielsen. I was reading your post and wondered about how easy it was to laterally adjust the blades compared to a bench plane like a LN No. 4. I would appreciate any insight you have from using your LA Jack. Thanks
Andrew,
There is not much clearance between the blade and the sides of the plane body, or fixed frog (may be wrong terminology). It is therefor important to keep the bevel square on the blade when sharpening. The blade is easily centered by hand, this is not a problem once one gets use to it. I find if I keep the bevel perfectly square when honing, the blade self centers if the iron is kept on the loose side.
Hey, Tony,
I have the L-N LA Jack, the #62. As I see it, the L-N has one advantage over the LV, and the LV has a couple over the L-N.
First, the LV has a set screw that prevents bonking the adjustable mouth into your freshly sharpened blade. Cool! Next there is more distance in front of the blade on the LV, and less behind; this will allow you to register the sole of the plane more sucurely on the surface. For example, suppose you're using the LA Jack to joint (and unlikely task in your case, as you already own a jointer.) You would have an easier time avoiding the tendency to create a dip at the end of the edge your'e working. Sounds good to me, although I haven't actually used the LV LA Jack.
Now, L-N offers a toothed blade with theirs. I saw this demo'ed at last winter's WW show in Denver, and was enchanted. This blade will scrub with no tearout. These are outrageously deep cuts compared with what you can get away with using a standard blade (scrub plane excepted.) Now, it's not as fast as a real scrub plane--I know 'cause I recently aquired a L-N scrub plane--but imagine being able to slam the plane right across a big gnarly knot without worrying that you'll tear out a chunk 1/4" deep. This blade also excels at flattening panels, and as you work you can see where you've been and where you haven't because of the tooth marks. You lose less material, and don't work as hard.
The most effective way I've found to use the toothing blade is to work in a normal flattening manner--across and forward left, across and forward right, then lengthwise--and follow with a smoother set a bit coarser than your final finish smoother. Off come the grooves, and there you go--it may take a couple of cycles, but flat board, no tearout. Sharpens just like a regular blade. I've found that toothing blade to be a real blessing.
Now, re: the Jack vs smoother question, I suspect that the Jack is more popular because it's versatile. I use my #62 to joint, flatten, and scrub (unless the board is knot-free and really out of whack) and for trimming proud tails and pins and other end-grain jobs (the LV would likely be better for that job, with its longer front.) Bed angle doesn't affect my choice for different woods, I just put a microbevel on the blade that gives me the needed angle. This is possible because the blade is bevel-up, of course.
Now, all these can be done with the smoother, too, but not always as well, because it's shorter. The #62 is just barely able to joint as it is; really should be longer for that job. But it will, and I do because I find it easier to keep square. Flattening, same issue. I guess you could use a toothing blade and scrub with the smoother, and the smoother might make end-grain jobs a little easier.
So, it seems like it'll depend on what your plan is for this plane. You've got a pretty good set of planes. You may not feel the need for the #62's versatility. Maybe the smoother will do. If you want one do-all plane, though, the LA Jack can't be beaten.
Charlie
Charlie -- thanks for that excellent summary. given that i have a 16inch jointer/planer and therefore don't do much scrubbing, probably the LV might be the way for me to go. as i understand it, that tool is a materially heavier than the LN, which isn't always a good thing but in this case i believe it may be as i will likely try the tool (the jack that is, not the smoother) to smooth as well as perform its other functions. What's nice is that both companies allow (indeed encourage!) the customer to purchase the tool and try it out and return if not a good fit, so i may do this and see which i prefer among the two jacks.
That sounds like a great plan. I can't imagine you'll be disappointed with either; anything Veritas is trustworthy.(...that toothing blade is really cool, though...)CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Hi Charlie -
No worries... the toothing blade will be here before fall... should be out just after we release the heavy smooth, and before we release the Low Angle Jointer.... all three use the same blades...
Cheers -
Rob
Wow, great! Any truth to the rumor that you're working on a scrub plane? I've got LV scraping and block planes on order. Can't wait.CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Scrub will be on sale in 4-5 weeks or so...definitely less than $90, with a HCS blade...
Cheers -
Rob
Tony,
If this works for you, good.
For me purchasing two similar planes with the knowledge of returning one which I don't choose, is not ethical. Their good customer service is designed to treat dissatisfied customers by accepting returns, not to supply free demo's to the consumer. If everyone abuses these offerings, they will eventually disappear.
Just my 2c worth, as I hope no one does business this way with me.
two observations on your comment:
first, i spoke with each company and asked them whether they had any problems with this and both said they want their customers to try their tools and if they find other tools that present a better fit for them that's no problem. ie, what is referred to as prior consent.
second, knowing the degree to which i'm a tool junkie i wouldn't be surprised if i end up keeping them both i love them both. i expect them to me similar but materially different, due to both design and the fact that one is a half size larger then the other. (eg, i have both a 4 and 4 1/2 and wouldn't want to be without either).
Hi Tony. You already own a smoother and a jack so why purchase another? The only benefit that you will get from either of these is if you are going to plane end grain. Regular bevel down planes are better at planning in all situations hard or soft wood with the exception of end grain. Low angle planes are viewed by some as more versatile but with the planes you already own there is no need for this versatility. Personally I would look at some other planes that you may need and not buy a double of an existing plane. Peter
Exactly my point, but hey, if he wants to spend the money and it's available, enjoy.
I might have to agree with you this time. My main interest in the low-angle palne is versatility which is moot if you have lots of planes. I wonder if Tony has a shoulder plane (do you, Tony?) But I'd bet you'd find the toothing blade a cool addition. And, somehow, I do better with my LA plane for jointing. Haven't figured that out yet, but it's clearly true, for me.By the way, how was Jamaica? How's married life?CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
It was awesome Charlie, thanks for asking. Married life so far has been great as well. The only negative thing about Jamaica was the burn, ohhh the sun burn................ Peter
Thanks everyone for your insights. Yes, I just ordered a large shoulder plane yesterday from LV. It was a very tough decision between that and the medium but i won't be using to clean out dados and i thought that larger plane would give me more flexibility on tenons, rabbets, etc.. As for the LA Jack discussion, my understanding was that the LA Jack bedded with a high-angle blade would provide superior smoothing capability on very difficult/figured grain, even better than a LA smoother (assuming the board is alredy flat) due to greater mass or a regular angle smoother. This was the principal reasons I was interested in this plane. The other attraction is that it enables me to take fewer planes if I'm doing work out of my shop, which does happen every so often. But if I got the part about smoothing very difficult grain with less tearout wrong, then maybe it is in fact unnecessary.
Well...you're right that a LA plane is quite versatile, and as a single plane to take along somewhere, it would be the one. But remember that to take full advantage of the plane's flexibility, you'd have to take your sharpening gear along. The way one changes the angle if attack on a LA plane is by adjusting the microbevel. The demonstrator at L-N, a guy named Deneb, has a wooden station with little blocks of wood glued parallel to the edge nearest him and each block is set a carefully determined distance from the edge; that way, using an Eclipse-style jig, he can just set the sharp edge of the blade against a given block, press the Eclipse jig against the front edge of the wooden station, and instantly have a pre-determined angle. A few passes on the 1000 grit, then the back on the 8000 grit, then the front on the 8000 grit, then a Charlesworth-style honing on the back, and presto! New angle. deneb's edges will take a hiar off his arm without TOUCHING THE SKIN. Gad!So, you can get any angle you want that way. But I suspect Peter might be right; the L-N angles are carefully chosen, and for regular straight-grained woods a standard L-N smoother is going to be hard to beat. But for figured woods, a higher angle works better, so they offer a York pitch frog, which I believe you have, yes? You should be covered for smoothing. I have a L-N #4 and it is my choice over the LA jack for smoothing. I usually keep the YP frog in itAll that being said, the #62 is still my favorite plane. And, did you see Mr Lee's response to me? They'll have a toothing blade out in short order. Say, have you got a scrub plane? THAT's a useful gizmo...CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Charlie, thanks for dispelling my belief that i would get better results with a HA setup on a LA jack then i would with a #4 or $ 1/2 with the york frog when planing difficult grain. This does change things for me. I think I will have to think it about it all for a while, but i'm still inclined to try one of these tools and see what it does for me. and btw, if i do get one, i would definitely get one with multiple blades, set up at different angles so i'm not honing on the job. btw, when i was speaking with a gentelman from LN a few days ago he mentioned that one can also order a blade for the 62 ground at a very high angle so that it can funtionally work as a scraper and that in his experience doing so works about as well as using one of their dedicated scraper planes. now that's versatility!
thanks again for all the help, t.
Wow...that's a new one on me...CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Hey, I've tot an idea. Why don't you mess around with the angles on your LA block plane; that'll give you an idea what kind of finish you'd get under varying conditions. A LA jack plane is like a big LA block plane with handles.CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Charlie,
With fashion calling for thick irons nowadays, honing a back bevel on a bench plane iron, gives you the same effect exactly. Same thing as a York pitch.
I use my LN 62 LA Jack mainly for smoothing difficult grain, with a 38 degree honed bevel, giving me 50 degrees (38 + 12)
When I really get into figured stuff, I use a Veritas 4 1/2 bench plane with a 35 degree bevel honed on the front of the blade (bevel side) and a 12 degree bevel on the back of the blade. It produces a totally different type of shaving, somewhere between a smoother and a scraper.
Hey, Tony, looks like this guy just posted here that has a L-N #62 for sale, why don't you email him and see how much he wants?
Post # 23149.1, "Tons of Brand New Tools for sale"
Charlie
charlie -- thanks much for the head's up! i've just emailed the gentelman asking for a complete list and pricing and so we'll see what's left. doesn't sound like much would last long if the pricing were good! best, tony.
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