Replies

1. 
   HowardAcheson | Aug 05, 2002 11:23pm | #1

   What grade are you specifying? Is one rough, the other surfaced? Are they both kiln dried or air dried? There are lots of variables.

2. 
   jonsherryl | Aug 05, 2002 11:25pm | #2

   Well, I guess I'm surprised that you're surprised. Unless you're buying their loss-leader ad items, finding a better deal at one of the big boxes on an ordinary stock item is like finding the chicken in Campbell's soup.

3. 
   TJinFL | Aug 05, 2002 11:36pm | #3

   The prices for lumber can vary widely from lumber yard to lumber yard, store to store, and definitely region to region.  I live in South Florida and can't find decent lumber no matter what price I'm willing to pay, but I did find a place called Wall Lumber in North Carolina that will ship 20 bd. ft. bundles via UPS for much less than the crappy quality I might be able to find here.  I paid about $5.00 bd ft. for nice Select Walnut and Maple.  Cherry might be a bit more.

   That said, you should be able to find some damn fine Cherry in Pennsylvania for $4.00 - $6.00 per bd ft. based on the prices I've seen advertised on the web.

   Just my .02 worth...

   Terry in Delray Beach, FL

4. 
   AlanTurner | Aug 06, 2002 03:10am | #4

   Don't know where in Pa. you are, but the following yard is a tree to dried wood shop of much quality.

   Groff & Groff Lumber, Inc. , 858 Scotland Road, Quarryville, PA 17566, (800) 342-0001 or (717) 284-0001.

   Fax (717) 284-2400.

   I know that they ship as I've seen them do it, but have never tried to buy this way.  Call for a price list.  I think that 4/4 Cherry, last time I looked, was under 5/bd. ft.  They also have wide planks of cherry, at least in 5/4, and figured cherry, and much other wonderful wood.  Very knowledgable, been around a long time.  Good luck.

1. 
   DougU | Aug 06, 2002 05:42am | #5

   I live in Iowa and have bought from Groff & Groff several times and have always been happy with the wood they sent.

   Doug

2. 
   gj13 | Aug 06, 2002 04:20pm | #8

   Actually, Groff & Groff is one of the places I called.  They're about a half hour from where I live.  

   At G&G rough 4/4 cherry is $4.60; S2S is $4.80; and three sides is $4.90.  I'll probably go with the three sides finished on account of I don't have a planer or jointer and will be jointing the fourth edge by hand. 

   There's also a Woodcrafter's Supply not too far away.  Their S2S is $8.60.  

   Thanks for the responses.

1. 
   DP | Aug 06, 2002 04:45pm | #9

   You might also try Hearne Hardwoods in Oxford PA (essentially at Pa 10 and US 1 intersection).  I live about 30 minutes from both them and Groff and Groff and get most of my cherry from Hearne.  Also Good Hope Hardwoods on PA 896 about 2 miles north of the DE border usually has an outstanding selection of figured cherry, but I think they're a bit pricey.

1. 
   dhpascoe | Aug 07, 2002 03:32pm | #13

   Good Hope sells first rate stuff. Of course you're going to pay for it. OTOH, you can order average stuff for $5 and end up junking half of it, so I find I'm ahead of the game by paying more rather than less. I hvae NEVER obtained particulary good material from a retailer for a low price.

   I also think that advertised grades are industry ####. One man's "select" is another's FAS. However, whenever I have specified what I want layman's terms -- size, grain pattern, lack of defect, etc., though I pay a higher price, no reputable internet supplier has yet disappointed me.

   Dave

1. 
   DP | Aug 07, 2002 04:40pm | #14

   I agree you generally get what you pay for.  However in my experience I've been able to get quality as good as what Good Hope has from either G&G or Hearne for less than GH's price.  The advantage of GH is that they usually have a larger selection of figured lumber to choose from.  However I'm in the fortunate position of being able to go each place and select what I want rather than having to rely on the supplier, and I'm close enough to be able to go regularly.

2. 
   AlanTurner | Aug 06, 2002 05:43pm | #10

   G&G has good tooling. You might ask them to joint one face before planing to thickness, and even if this cost more, it would be well worth it! Be sure to spec the final thickness. The way that G&G does the rough cutting, you might get as much as 13/16 or more out of a 4/4 board. They are a pleasure to deal with. I hope you will drive over there as it is always a treat for me, although the drive is 1 1/2 hours. Picking one's own boards is intergral to the building process. UPstairs they have a number of smaller, specimen pieces of just about everything from tropicals to highly figured. Their quilted maple, for example, is musical instrument quality.

1. 
   TJinFL | Aug 06, 2002 09:57pm | #11

   s4s,

   Geez.... I wish I lived where I could go and pick through the piles....  That would be a treat...  However, Wall Lumber out of North Carolina has sent me nice lumber (as far as this rookie can tell anyway...)  the three times I've used them...

   Terry in Delray Beach, FL

1. 
   AlanTurner | Aug 06, 2002 11:06pm | #12

   I agree, picking through the piles is the cat's meow.

2. 
   BG | Aug 08, 2002 01:07pm | #16

   Yes, it is fun to pick through the piles...and of course chat with others about their projects.  Where I get in trouble, with all the possibilities, I tend to upgarde my project at the supplier.  All of a sudden I'm buy Cherry instead of Ash...cause it appears te cherry boards all came form the same tree....and altough the gain goes down and to the right..I can carve out boards that will have the grain parrallel...lots of waste, but just like the professional would do.

   I skoot up to Maine where the guys have the saws in the woods and piles of wood air drying all around them.  We shuffle our feet, talk about the damn democrats, spit and come to terms on a few hundred feet of rough cut stuff...at those prices i can pretend more cheaply.  

3. 
   fdampier | Aug 08, 2002 08:49pm | #17

   That's what I do. 

     I buy from a local saw mill and dry myself.  I've saved enough over buying from the lumberyard that I can afford a planner, jointer, shaper and every other tool I can dream of.

     Now yes you need to buy a whole bunker of wood, but I've gotten 10 cents a bd foot ash and 17 cents a board foot black walnut.  sure it's green and 1000 bd.ft. is a lot to deal with if you are making a grandfather clock or a bird house.  now talk to your wood working buddies.  hmmmmmmmmmmmm the pile is now 1/2 or 1/3rd the size.  Ok some of the boards aren't perfect, only a small percentage are FAS grade   but if you're building a bird house do you really need a 8 foot long board? Can't you cut out the few feet you need and burn the knots and flaws?

     Besides if I buy from the mill I get to look at stuff first.  That's how I found 916 bd.ft. of the best burl oak I've ever seen. I find interesting boards and wood that never makes it to the store.  (ever see birdseye red oak?) quilted or fiddle back maple? it's all the same price,  see that log over there?  The black walnut with the split in the butt?   what if that makes a piece of the most beautiful flame you've ever seen?  ask 'em to saw it and agree to buy what ever comes off it. They'll happily do as you ask and it'll cost you about 90 cents a foot.

     I went to the local woodworking store and just for giggles looked at the price some of you are paying for wood.

     If I paid that much per bd.ft. the pile of wood outside my house would be worth $330,000.00 (no the comma's and periods are in the right spot)   I have less than $20,000.00 into the pile.

4. 
   TJinFL | Aug 08, 2002 09:25pm | #18

   Frenchy,

   Can I just come to your house and buy from you?

   Terry in Delray Beach, FL

5. 
   fdampier | Aug 08, 2002 10:02pm | #19

   Sure, but why not just go to the mill direct?  Right now Connie's Got a couple of bunkers of 6/4 basswood for 15 cents,  who knows what else will come up? 

     the only trouble with my approach some of you may have already heard about...

     Hello My Name is Frenchy and it's been two weeks since I bought any wood.............

6. 
   TJinFL | Aug 08, 2002 10:12pm | #20

   Where are you located Frenchy?

7. 
   fdampier | Aug 08, 2002 10:27pm | #21

   Just west of Minneapolis on Lake Minnetonka    Minneosta land of two seasons, winter and road construction......

     state bird is the misquito. 

8. 
   TJinFL | Aug 09, 2002 01:10am | #22

   Guess I won't be dropping in on you for lumber then.... I'm about as far away from you as is possible - South Florida!  Oh well, one of these days....

9. 
   fdampier | Aug 09, 2002 06:01am | #23

   Well just remember what flows down hill,...... no I mean water.

       Let's see, I could put a few boards into the Mississippi and some day they'd probably float right by......

     whatcha want?

5. 
   PlaneWood | Aug 06, 2002 05:46am | #6

   Gpas - might do you well down the road to try to find local saw mills in Penn.  Try the Wood Miser band saw web site.  Or see if the Penn dept of forestry keeps a listing of local saw mills.  Some of these guys have kilns and do a pretty decent job of curing lumber.  I've found them to be quite a bit cheaper than any retail shop and usually better quality.  One retail hardwood place here in Houston only gets the outer cuts of cherry from their supplier.   And, they don't even know the difference.  Might need to buy in 100+ bf lots though.  cheers!

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy
   PlaneWood

6. 
   StanleyNiemiec | Aug 06, 2002 07:19am | #7

   There are many aspects to woodworking  --  all of it with some very specific terminology and some all with bunches and bunches of possible combinations/permeations.  One of the most difficult is addressing the questions you raise and coming up with a way to actually determine the best VALUE for your needs.

   The best way I can think of to begin to get you on the right track is to reiterate some guidelines for lumber purchases as listed in the Wood Handbook (USDA Forest Service) as important points to consider when ordering/purchasing lumber:

   1.  Quantity  --  feet, board measure, number of pieces of definite size and length.  Consider that board measure (ie board feet) depends on thickness and width nomenclature used and that the interpretation of this must be clearly delineated.  In other words, nominal or actual, pattern size, etc must be considered.

   2.  Size  --  thickness in inches -- nominal and actual if surfaced on faces; width in inches  -- nominal and also actual if surfaced on edges.  Length in feet  --  may be nominal average length, limiting length or a single uniform length.  Often a trade designation , "random" length is used to denote a non-specified assortment of lengths as well as a range.

   3.  Grade  --  as indicated in grading rules of lumber manufacturing associations.  Some grade conbinations (B&BTR) are official grades; others (STD & BTR) are often grade combinations and subject to purchase agreement.

   In softwoods (generally), each piece of lumber is stamped with its grade (determined AFTER drying, if any, and planing), a name or number identifying the producing mill, the dryness at the time of surfacing and a symbol identifying the inspection agency supervising the grading processes.  Subsequent exposure to unfavorable storage conditions, improper drying, or careless handling may cause the material to fall below its original grade.

   In hardwoods, grade and size are often determined prior to kiln drying. 

   4.  Species or groupings of wood  --  correctly identify the species you wish to purchase.  Sometimes species have been grouped together for marketing convience, and/or because it is virtually impossible to identify the original species after processing  (eg red oak). 

   If you wish to be absolutely certain that you are getting what you order, I strongly recommend you include the scientific name of the species you wish to purchase.  Local names can be very confusing  --  Umbellularia californica goes by Oregon myrtle in Oregon and California-laurel or CA-bay in California; it also is sometimes referred to as Pacific myrtle (and has no relationship to the myrtle of the Middle East) or locally as pepperwood or spice-tree.

   Poplar, as a common name could be Yellow-poplar (Lireodendron tulipifera), a cottonwood (Populus spp.  --  Populus deltoides - Eastern cottonwood for example) is sold as poplar and to really mess everything up, Aspen (Populus tremuloides, et. al.) is sold as a separate species (despite being Populus spp.) and often referred to as popple and poplar.

   5.  Product  --  flooring, siding, boards, timbers, etc.  Nomenclature varies by species, region and grading association.

   6.  Condition of seasoning  --  air-dried, partially air-dried (PAD), kiln dry, green, etc.  If moisture content requirements are critical, the moisture content and determination of MC must be specified.

   7.  Surfacing and working  --  rough (unsurfaced), dressed (surfaced [and this can be one side or two sided, to a specified dimension or "hit or miss" which is a partial surfacing], completely surfaced on all sides [as with softwood lumber to standard nominal dimensions -- eg. 2 x 4]) or patterned.  You need to specify the condition and if surfaced indicate S2S - surfaced two sides, S4S - surfaced four sides, or something like S2S1E which is surfaced two sides and ripped (straightline ripped) one edge.

   8.  Grading rules  --  official grading agency, product identification, paragraph number, or page number, date of rules or official rule volume. 

   It would be nice if this was somehow standardized but it is not.  Softwoods differ from hardwoods largely because most softwood grades infer some level of structural load carrying capacity for building codes, which generally does not apply to most hardwood utilization.  Hardwoods are more generally graded based on face appearance and the size and number of pieces for a given number of cutting that can be obtained from the board.

   There will always be some difference of opinion regarding visual grading of lumber and as long as 95% of the lumber meets standards for a given grade, it is deemed accceptable.

   There are also general grade standards that may or may not differentiate between the amount of included sapwood (important with species like cherry and walnut, for example, because the sapwood is a different color than the heartwood).  To overcome this color difference, these woods are often steamed as part of the dry kiln process to minimize sap/heart color differences but in doing so diminishes the color intensity of the heartwood.

   And then there are proprietary grades established by a given producer to meet the specific needs of various customers or to reflect the general "quality" of the wood.  This can create total havoc because if a mill writes its own standard for No. 1 grade lumber, it can be entirely different from a No. 1 grade standard from an agency like the National Hardwood Lumber Association.

   So in determining price equability you need to determine what you are actually purchasing.  Five dollars a board feet for 4/4, green, rough, No. 3 grade cherry that is predominately sapwood may not meet your needs and therefore is exorbitantly over priced.  Conversely, at $12/bdft, 8/4, Quartersawn,  Sel&Btr, all heart, kiln dried to 8% MC (OD) in widths greater than 10" and widths greater than 12 feet may be a great deal to some woodworkers. 

   It is foolish to buy a lesser grade/quality than you require; and it is likewise wasteful to buy long, wide, clear boards if you are going to need lots of small pieces all ripped to a 1" width.  The grade will determine the yield of cuttings (both qualitatively and quantitatively) so not only do you have to be able to differentiate between grades but you also need to understand what different grades will yield/produce.  IF you think that determining that combination is easy, guess again.  I would estimate that a majority of small woodworking businesses and almost all hobbiests cannot make this value judgement and therefore over buy the wood they actually need.  And I will further say that there are two types of lumber purchasers, those who have made mistakes on a purchase and those who will make mistakes (understanding that there is no mutual exclusivity between those two groups). 

   It may be necessary for you to get your stock S2S if you don't have a planer or S2S1E if you have neither a planer nor a long jointer.   Paying an extra $.25, $.40 or even $.50 per board  foor for these "services" could greatly lessen your in-shop labor costs and therefore will be a bargain to you.

   As a general rule of thumb the term caveat emptor (let the buyer beware) applies to the purchase of wood.  You friendly neighborhood lumber yard, an independent peckerwood or a huge chain are equally capable of a false smile while they take advantage of you and rip you off by selling you a bunch of overpriced lousy lumber.  The ideal situation is one where you get good help and good answers to your questions so that the supplier is actually helpful and informative.  If that costs you an extra $.25 or $.50 a board foot, it might be the best deal you will ever get.

   Stanley Niemiec  --  Wood Technologist

7. 
   jpamulapati | Aug 08, 2002 12:01pm | #15

   I don't know if this helps, but  I  purchased 20 bd. ft. from adirondack hardwoods online and the cherry was exactly as promised. It might be better to purchase locally so that you can check the figure in the wood. I also purchased wood on e-bay. It might be one way to go if you are looking for a bargain.