Been lurking for awhile and perhaps against my better judgement I’ll go ahead and go fishing for answers.
I’ll be going to the woodworking shows at Somerset this month and Dulles next month. LN won’t be there but I drove down to Raleigh last month to order the bronze #4. Also picked up their BU jack. I have every intention of adding their BU Jointer.
Nevertheless, LV will sell me their scraper at Somerset and their jointer will be in temptation’s reach. The question? Is there a reason I should consider the LV over the LN? I’d really like to know.
Saving Your Energy Disclaimers Before You Answer
1) No, I don’t think hardware is more important than skills. Never met anyone who did. At anything.
2) I’m not looking for absolute values in your philosophy. I don’t care about your philosophy. I want to hear what you think about the topic. Leave other people alone, please.
3) Yes, I’ll go ahead and stipulate that everybody on this board is a better woodworker than I. And yes, I know that there are some of you who can build things I can’t even dream of making, and you can do it with a pocket knife and a dried string bean.
4) I really want to hear what folks have to say, so don’t waste your time or mine or chase folks off with an arrogant attitude. Just tell me what works for you and assume I have the savvy to make judgments on my own.
5) Go ahead and assume I know how to handle my own money. I’ve been doing it for awhile.
6) And finally, Yes, I am looking for a reason to buy one of those fancy infill planes handmade by an artisan. I buy paintings too sometimes.
And by the way, my mind says the Steelers will win, but my heart loves Green Bay uniforms. I’ll accept arguments and personal attacks on this last topic.
Replies
New Plane
You should go a step further and consider both: LV over LN and LN over LV. There are good reasons and not good reasons for doing so. Much of it depends on how do you do your reasoning about various reasons. There are several reasons for such methodical approach and few others for avoiding it. Reasons are difficult to quantify, particularly on the scale such as 3 - 8.
Metod
Reason? I Should Reason ???? :>)
Great point you raise. The truth is I'm looking for shortcuts to my selection.
Retired here to the Shenandoah Valley from Atlanta. A lifestyle change like that is like turning around the Queen Mary. We built a house out in the countryside and moved in last year. Installed a garden for SWMBO. Planted trees. You know the drill. I had to watch my brand new shop sit dark and lonely all that time but NOW .............................. NOW I have some freedom and have started building the guts of the shop. You know. Dust control. Wiring. Smuggling in new tools..
Finally decided to buy some decent hand planes after wrestling for years with stuff I "fixed-up". I had a Stanley I trued over a four day period and used it for years. It was my favorite tool. Like a damn fool I went to one of Atlanta's WW shows and tried a LN LA block. The Stanley has been rusting ever since. Also picked up a 212b which is the best tool made on earth, ever. So now, twenty years later I went to the LN show in Raleigh last month (without adult supervision) and finally bought a smoothing plane to work with my old Ulmia smoother. I got the #4 in bronze which I have eyed forever. I blame Roc for that decision. He blabbed about his #4 and that was it. Talk to him. I saw the bronze beauty and didn't even bother to try it out. Kinda like when I was single. I wouldn't have cared if Ann Margaret could cook or not. If I could just take her home..................................
Meanwhile, I've wanted the Veritas 5 1/4. It seems so ............. revolutionary. But there I was in Raleigh and I went and picked up the LN #6 BU. That was that. I'm a big fan of LV scrapers and block planes. But due to my love affair with LN to-date I've had a dalliance in the brothel and have only one plane left to consider. So the shadow in my question is to learn if someone thinks the LV is so unique or advanced in design that it offers an advantage I can't even envision over the LN jointer.
I'm new here. I am not encumbered with memories of how this forum "used to be". I like it here and have learned a few new ways of looking at things. I like other forums as well, but this is my favorite. I find the arguments some folks offer here to be of great value. I love the point-counter-point stuff. What I don't appreciate is some folks offering an opinion and then being insulted into silence. If I can steal an idea from you I'll do it. I can't do that if you are exasperated into silence.
I've waited many years to have the time and money to have a man cave with good toys. This is my chance but the clock is ticking. I value every single voice here, maybe most those with whom I totally disagree. So before I lay out good cash, can anybody offer their prejudice over which of the two jointers they prefer? And why?
I'm not sure that short cuts exist for decisions that are, in the final analysis, personal in nature. Both companies make good products, even though it might be argued that LN does a better job on fit and finish. LN generally follows the traditional designs, with only subtle improvements. In contrast, some of the Veritas "specialty" planes show a bit more innovation in terms of improvements on the traditional designs. Whether those innovations are important to you is a question only you can answer.
That said, all of my new planes are from LN.
If you save your money, you can get what you really want.
A much better approach would be to refine your skills to the point where any plane will work.
Your question is hard to answer, it is the equivalent of asking, what should I buy a Ferrari or a Lamborghini? There are some differences, for example, the LV router plane is easier to use than the LN, but on the other hand I think the LN scraper plane is better than the LV. On a strict bang for your buck I would give a slight advantage to LV since their products are slightly cheaper and work just as good. Then again LV does not have a Nº 9 miter plane or a carriage plane, both of which have allowed me to do many things I could not do otherwise, or would have been more difficult.
You mentioned you have gone to shows and tried the planes, my best advice would be to pick the one that is more comfortable to you. I am partial to the LV handles, the LN feel too small and thin for my taste, but rest assured both will work out of the box without having to hassle with them.
That's What I'm looking For !
I think the LN scraper plane is better than the LV.
Why????
I am nuts about the 212b but I detest the LN scraper plane (cabinet model) because it can't be adjusted. I liked the LV scraper plane from the limited time I used it. Plus it's adjustable. Far preferred it, though for no apparent reason other than "magic".
The LN larger scraper plane is adjustable but I try to avoid projects large enuff to justify its use.
I am ready for you to tell me why I'm just plain wrong. You may flip the switch and show me a brighter light.
I have the big scraper plane, so I was talking about that one. The LN has a thicker blade and better adjustment than the LN. I do agree with you, if they made the 212 adjustable it would be the one to go for most operations other than doing a table. I am still thinking of getting it though.. ;-))
Technology vs Tradition
I can give you my impression of the two companies. One has based it's reputation on making finely machined copies of old plane designs in better, heavier materials. The other company has asked what can they do to improve the old plane design and isn't afraid to try something a little different.
Both make excellent products that perform well. Since you have a number of those beautiful traditional planes you might see if Lee Valley's tweaks add something new and worthwhile to your work.
Peter.
It's quite simple for me, I'm from Maine, LN is made here. They are a small local company that manufactures a world class product and keeps some of my neighbors employed.
Okie-Dokie
From what I'm hearing nobody is rising to the defense of LV re: innovation with the #7. Fair 'nuff. I can go ahead and order the LN 7 1/2 next week. I have to do so within one month of the LN show in Raleigh to avoid shipping charges. I do so love their stuff. What I'm really lusting for is their new mitre plane --------------- weighs 10# as I recall. The prototype was in Raleigh. I'm sure that baby will be obscenely expensive. It might be nice to actually have a need. :>)
Was originally upon retirement going to get a private pilot's license. The economy/stock market crushed that dream like a stray strawberry. But whenever I'm challanged re: tool cost, I throw that trump card on the table. You know. "Well, inasmuch as the airplane dream died I guess I can afford to go ahead and outfit the shop, blah..blah..blah. That card is a little tattered on the corners, but as long as I can take the trick..............
You gotta love both companies though. Both are American (in the neighborly sense) and both make our world better. Plus I can actually afford what they make. Mostly.....................
Good luck with the purchase. I haven't used the LV planes so I can only speak from experience on LN. I like the mass of LN planes, the fit and finish are remarkable and they operate the way I am used to a bench plane working. I will tell you that I absolutely love my 4 1/2 smoother. The extra width and mass make smoothing boards a joy. As you no doubt already know you will not be disappointed with the LN.
As an aside, I would love to try the LV some day. I am in the market for their small router plane.
This may help. I compared the Veritas BU Jointer with a Stanley #7 (not a LN but similar) when reviewing the former.
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20Veritas%20Lee%20Valley%20Bevel%20Up%20Jointer.html
Regards from Perth
Derek
Thank You for Your Comparison
Gotta run, but that was great stuff. More later.
Great Review
Thanks, Derek, for giving us the linky-dinky. I guess I was searching for a reason to go ahead and buy the LV jointer if for no other reason to have it. I appreciate (and prefer) the LN stuff I have but really wanted to own a LV plane but could justify doing so only if I had a cranky hombre tell me he was happy with the performance of his.
I've never really seen you bayonet any piece of iron (to my way of thinking, the modern stuff from reputable outfits works very well) but reading between the lines I detected a stronger than usual endorsement of the LV BU jointer. Thanks.
I trust (hope?) that your family has been able to escape the vicious heavy weather down your way. So many folks suffering. Over on the Burl there is a thread mentioning tough sledding for some of his family members. Hate to see this.
Now if only you didn't do everything upside down........... :>)
One major difference between the LN and LV BU jointers
Profiler:
I have the LN BU smoother and jack, totally happy with both of them. LV makes really good tools as well, but there is a downside to their BU jointer. You can't use it on a shooting board like you can the LN because they barely have a milled side to them. This may or may not matter to you. Otherwise, the LV has several nice features the biggest being a set screw to fix the width of the mouth opening.
gdblake
Shooting Board
Thanks for that---------- in this particular case I'll live without it. I'll use the jack plane.
Have you seen their new plane made just for shooting boards? That sucker is a monster. Next year perhaps SWMBO will not be looking and I can smuggle it into the house. :>)
P,
You moved to the Shennadoah Valley. Beautiful area. Not far from the Northern VA area. Lee Valley comes to the annual tools show at the Dulles Expo center. This year it will be in early March, though I don't have the exact dates with me right now. Lie Nielsen stopped going to those shows but they come to the area once or twice a year and do shows. They will be coming to Gaithersburg in June. YOu can check their website for exact dates.
Where about are you in the Valley? You might not be far from Ray Pine or from Charles Neil. You can look up their addresses on their websites. Lots of great woodworking in the area.
Read your post with great interest. You have ATTITUDE. Great stuff. So many other writers are dull. They try to be objective and scientific. You have ATTITUDE. I don't think that will make you a better woodworker, but it sure makes your messages more fun to read than the ordinary ones. My guess is that if you were a singer, you would be doing Rap music. You sound like the woodworking version of a Rapper.
If you ever make it over to the Northern Virginia area, let me know. THere are a few nice wood shops around here. Dunlap Woodcrafts is fantastic for those who like "the best" wood.
There is a GREAT group of tool collectors over in your neck of the woods. I believe the name is Shennadoah Valley Tool Collectors. The contact for the group is:
Vaughn Simmons, 3315 Clement Drive, Harrisonburg, VA 22801
540-432-0617
[email protected]
Have fun. Keep posting. Keep up the attitude.
I was going to write a number of paragraphs on the type of response I want from you (much like your extremely long set of admonitions about what you wanted from those who would respond to you), but I didn't pay any attention to what you said, and I figured you'd do the same. Besides, I really don't care how or if you respond. I do care that you enjoy your woodworking. Have fun at that.
Mel
Shenandoah Valley
Glad to hear from you. Hoped to hear from you. I also hoped you would offer an argument for LV on the jointer. Luckily Derek gave me the rationalization to buy it though in truth I guess I just want one. :>)
Also trolled for Roc to explain a remark I think he made (don't know if I'm making this up, or if he actually posted WTTE), "I have a #4 LN bronze smoother I just look at...." You gotta love that remark even if I only dreamed it up. Anyway, he was my justification for buying my own. I tried it out in Raleigh and fell in love but maybe, just maybe my prejudice helped it out. (imagine!)
Located dead center between Harrisonburg & Staunton. Staunton has (I'll argue) the best Shakespeare theater in the world. Even the Brits envy our Blackfriars Theat(re). It's a jewel. Was the site of the International festival a few years back.
About the only "objective stuff" I'm still interested in is physics & math. Not even remotely interested in technology any more. I've had enuff. There are spectacular math & physics groups on the net and I join in from time-to-time. They say it keeps the mind healthy. I'll let you know in thirty years.
NASA (as you know) had spectacular open platforms years ago, but the .................... 'um.............. parasites in Washington are starving NASA funding and giving it to bankers these days, so that venue is smaller and trying to re-ignite public support. We've become so stupid lately that we're not interested in the future anymore. We ought be ashamed.
My in-laws are in their 90's so we've been (are) tied up since the move taking care of them. They moved here from Dallas (can you imagine moving when you're ninety?) when we moved from Atlanta. They can be a handful, but we're sneaking out a little bit now.
Glad you like attitude. Society would be dead without it. Nothing of significance happens without it. I was largely a quantitative analyst for half my life. Didn't go out to dinner for thirty years. BUT I never missed a swim meet (#1 son) and never missed a baseball game (#2 son). Paid for both kids to go to school. Now it's my time to party (or my version of it) and I'm really enjoying delayed gratification. Finally have a shop. Loud opera music. (no rap.) Great kids and now have a grandchild (henace the trip to Somerset). Life is spectacular.
Going to the show in Somerset this month and Dulles next month. Will buy some LV stuff and maybe one of those newfangled diamond stones. There may or not be buys at the shows for clamps, bits, etc. I saw on one of your previous posts deep somewhere re: Dunlap Woodcrafts. I have it stuck in my mind it's close to Dulles so I'd love to swing by. I came here (the Valley) to live near cows and make a couple tables for the Mennonite Committee auctions. It almost seems a shame to do anything in exotics. Country furniture with native woods. But I do love tropicals to look at. My main objective is fun. Grew up in the '50's and hand tools then (planes & chisels) were garbage. I think fifty years from now, these years will be looked back upon as the renaissance of hand tools. And I intend to participate as long as I can stay above room temperature.
Also planned to come your way if you're not too far inside the perimeter. I've become gun-shy over traffic. Which Woodcraft you do you work for? Rest assured I will look up every contact you have for the Valley. Family issues make planning difficult, but I'll do it sooner or later............
In a different vein, my primary motivation with my original post (other than getting LV jointer opinions) was to avoid confrontation. I'm new here (to this forum) and to me it's great. It seems sad that FWW botched the software changeover. My interest is trying to avoid further attacks on FWW, and posters. I'd love to see participation broaden. I want to hear everybody's experiences and judgments. I've learned to learn from many.............
On yet another topic: does anybody know what happens when one switches from oil to turpentine as a lubricant for oilstones? I have an Arkansas black I bought from Highland Hardware almost forty years ago now. It's a dear friend and has spent many years on my bench shapening small knives. If there's any wear I can't find it. Only trued it once. I am truly growing weary of oil however. If I can switch to turpentine I'd love to do it. Will it wreck my stone? Anybody know? Larry Williams, R-U There ????
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