I have acquired several old hand-planes and want to fix them up for use in my shooting boards, but these planes are woefully warped. As I’m sure many of you know, the plane in a shooting board needs to be perfectly square for accurate results. I got most of the rust off these old guys, and have new Hock blades and chip-breakers, but I really need a machine shop to surface-grind the plane.
It would take too much time to just get the bottoms flat again by hand, much less try to square the sides with standard wood-shop tools.
I was wondering if anyone knows of a machining service that can accurately grind the soles flat and then square the sides. I know CNC shop-time is somewhat expensive, but I think these will be worth it when I’m done. I just need to find a good machine shop for a reasonable price, hopefully with someone who has had experience with the process of getting metal hand planes flat and square.
Anybody out there know someone or someplace like that?
Thanks!
Replies
Sorry man. Here is my vote. Probably wind up costing the same in the end.
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=9#
But who knows with the economy the way it is. A few years ago every body had more work than they could do an they probably would have just laughed and sent you packing unless you had like a run of a hundred planes to grind.
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 7/10/2009 2:16 am by roc
Edited 7/10/2009 2:17 am by roc
Well, I really like your idea! And if money were no object, I would definitely get one of those gorgeous hefty LN miter planes. But I already have these old planes and two of them will be perfect for the shooting boards if I can just get them machined perfectly perpendicular and flat. I have flattened the soles of numerous hand planes with abrasives and a granite surface block in the past. It IS some work, but normally doable without too much time invested. But getting the sides perfectly square is another matter. The few times I was successful, it was only after much tedious trial and error.Machining just makes more sense for precision results without guess-work or fussy corrections. After all, that's how Lie-Nielsen, Veritas and Holtey do it!It seems there must be some machinist out there who also understands woodworkers and our needs. I have seen countless planes at flea markets and woodworking shows that could be beautiful and functional if I only knew a machinist who could do this work.If you happen to hear of anything, I'd sincerely appreciate another reply.Until then, thanks and best wishes!
Good,
I can't recommend a machine shop unless you come to Waihi, New Zealand.
But I can give you some pointers that might help , especially if you do locate a machinist willing to do it (the work is peanuts for them).
You need to satisfy yourself that the planes are worth the fuss and money.....
1)Strip all parts off the plane, down to the body.
2)If you have a reliable flat reference surface, preferably a granite surface plate, or failing this ####machine table which you hope is flat, use it to find which side of each plane is square or squarest to the sole-mark it with a felt tip pen.
3)Ask the machinist to place the marked side down first on his magnetic table-which means he will grind the opposite side first, then flip the plane and grind the marked side second. If the marked side was appreciably out of square with the sole he would have had to compensate- and they have their methods of doing that.
4)So now the two sides are parallel to each other, and square to the sole.Hopefully your machinist will have two twin toolmaker type machine vises (toolmaker type= very accurate, square to table , jaws parallel etc). He can now clamp the plane in the vises and clock it on average parallel to his surfacer table, and grind the sole, which will make it flat and remove any twist if it was there.The sole should be ground until all is clean, especially at the leading edge of the mouth-here there must be a sharp arris....
5)The important part: a)He must clamp the plane as low as possible in the vises- only about 3 to 5 mm should be above the jaws.
b)No need for huge torque when tightening- good vises will grip plenty without much tightening.
I do the work in that order, ie sides first then sole, so that there is no distortion of the sides and therefore the sole when clamping since the sides are square and parallel to each other.
I do a #5 or #6 in 25 to 35 minutes, using a Browne &Sharpe surface grinder (Venerable American Machine).If a machinist tells you something about lots of set up time move on: it means he doesn't want to do the job.
6)You still need to do a modicum of hand lapping to eliminate any grinding patterns and this best done with the plane assembled and cap under full tension- occasionally there can be a thou or two discrepancy due to the cap tension, but I have not seen this very often. You also need to be sure that the frog seats evenly on the base points and no distortion happens when tightening the two screws.
The picture shows a #6 being ground- two precision vises and I left the jacks on either end for insurance. In fact the plane was et up in the vises on my granite surface plate, then transferred to the machine magnetic table.
So that is an outline so you have an idea-but it doesn't mean you will instructing the machinist on how to do it (;).
Philip Marcou
Edited 7/10/2009 2:46 am by philip
Well Thank You!
Great advice from down under!Although my father knew some local machinists who could probably do exactly as you recommend, that was a long time ago. Sadly, my little town doesn't have the manufacturing talent it once did. I like your method and it makes sense. I also appreciate the photo of the stalwart old machine!When I do find somebody, I will be sure to print out your advice and ask the right questions.If my wife and I get to your area someday on vacation, ( a real possibility) I will be sure to buy you a beverage of your choice!
Many Thanks!
You know it just occurred to me, that I should ask what you charge for this service. It might be feasible to send them to you.
Would you consider it?
How do you charge, by the linear inch, or is there some flat fee?I am seriously considering the idea!
Philip,
Although I'm not in the market for this type of grinding service at the moment, I wanted to take the time to thank you for your clear description of how to do it.
That was about as understandable as can be. And, because it came from someone who has actually done the work - and has taken the time to photo-document it - the process becomes even more transparent.
Thank you. ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Phillip,
Thanks for the post. Nice to learn and understand how this works. Not being a metal worker, (OK can mig weld some stuff badly) I read and see these amazing tools in Grizzley catalogs. I know when you rebuild an engine you 'Mill the Heads and Blocks" to make them flat. Why wouldn't you use a Mill to flatten and square a plane instead of a surface grinder instead? Probably a no brainer, but I have been mulling it over a few days...
Thanks Morgan <!----><!----><!---->
-----------_o
---------_'-,>
-------(*)/ (*) http://www.EarthArtLandscape.com
"Why wouldn't you use a Mill to flatten and square a plane instead of a surface grinder instead?"
A mill will do the job well but it has to be a very heavy one which uses a face mill cutter to full effect and the work has to be secured much more than in the case of a surface grinder with magnetic table. Small surface grinders are far more available to casual users than big mills with suitable tooling.It can also be done on a small mill by using end mills but the surface finish will be inferior, not very accurate and will require further steps to correct-such as surface grinding. A surface grinder is the recognised machine for consistent surface finish and accuracy and involves no heat or strain on the work piece.Philip Marcou
Thanks Phillip. I really enjoy reading your adventures in 'Making Planes'. Thanks for the post and edification.
If I envision this correct, the mill would leave marks, just like a router does when removing stock in wide area. The swirl marks and overlaps would then require more work to flatten.
I guess I saw the surface grinder as having only one grit, but you probably change grits, depending on the amount of material to remove and the polish needed. I see the first cheap a$$ plane I bought with big grind marks in the bottom, vs a fine ground bottom of an LV plane. Would love to give one of yours a try someday, jus to say I have, perhaps when things turn around in a few years...!
Morgan
<!----><!----><!---->
-----------_o
---------_'-,>
-------(*)/ (*) http://www.EarthArtLandscape.com
As I'm sure many of you know, the plane in a shooting board needs to be perfectly square for accurate results.
Not so!
If you are using a Stanley-type plane with an adjustment lever, then all you need to do is adjust the blade square to the work piece. Actually you have to do this any way regardless of how square the sides of the plane are.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Yes, you are right about that. For many planes, I can adjust the lever, and therefore the angle of the blade to compensate for the slight variation between the sole and the sides. I have done that in the past with other planes for other shooting boards, particularly those that I made very quickly, on-site or for special applications. Perhaps when I was younger and my vision was better, I would have felt more confident that I had the angle just right too. But that isn't the kind of precision I'm looking for with these new shooting boards. I want to avoid guess-work and fussy adjustments.These particular planes do not have the lever adjustment anyway. But they are massive, so I know they will do the job if I can only get them perfectly flat and square. Besides, I just like old planes like these and feel the relatively small investment in machining will be worth it.I have found two methods (actually one "double-check method") for adjusting the plane-bladed which suits my pursuit of perfectly parallel depth adjustment. It works for my Lie-Nielsen and Veritas planes beautifully! 1- I set the plane on a granite surface-block and raise the sole with intervening Starrett shims, then gently lower the blade / chip-breaker assembly into position until it bottoms out, then carefully tighten the blade into position. ( That works OK by itself for most applications)
2-For really nice fitting joints, I check the blade projection from the base with a dial indicator mounted in a very-accurate machined jig. Often I find small discrepancies with the dial indicator and jig that I would have missed visually.I use the dial indicator / jig to align the board perfectly too. I have discovered that this combination yields perfect results every time with no guess-work and it is much faster, more reliable and MUCH easier for old-eyes!You are perfectly right; that method of adjusting the blade-lever can and does work, especially if your vision is good, and you don't mind making test-cuts and the plane you use has an adjustment-lever. I appreciate you pointing that out too, as I should have said, "IDEALY -we want the sole perpendicular..."So, I have a precision method for adjusting the shooting-board and ANY type of plane. This method is fast, precise, reliable, repeatable, easy and works for me. I sincerely appreciate your advice, and know that it works well enough for most people in most situations. But, for the way I work now, I just need a machinist who can true these planes.And I especially appreciate your pointing out the inaccuracy of my opening statements. I was trying to be brief, and in the process ended up typing more words anyway! Oh well... everyone needs a good editor now and then! What I love about this particular online "community" is the amazing wealth of knowledge and diverse viewpoints, so I truly appreciate yours! It helps me keep my thinking "true" too!
Thank you!Now, can someone just direct me to a machinist?
I sent some old stanleys to a guy that hangs out at Woodnet with a handle of tablesawtom. He was highly recommended over there and they came back not only flat but the sides square! I sent a 4, 5 1/2 and 7 that I had picked up for a song and put in thick blades and they work GREAT!
Thanks for the info!
How much did he charge?
I do not remember but it was more for the 7 than for the 4. He actually posted pics of the process that he uses on the surface grinder.
Scott
Well THANK YOU!
I would certainly like to know how to reach this fellow.
Any advice?
+1 on tablesawtom. He can do it for you. I believe he is in Iowa. You will have to go the Woodnet to find him.
Thanks for the reply.
I have tried to find "tablesawtom" at woodnet, but to no avail.I tried registering for their service six times, each a failure. I did not find his name in any of the many pages I searched there. So I contacted the moderators via email, and have still not heard back from them.If you have a direct way of contacting tablesawtom, I am willing to give him a call.
http://www.tablesawtom.com/
But what's his email?
I emailed the address to Goodguy rather than posting it on the forum.
Would you email it to me?
[email protected]
At least that's what pop ups when you click the 'email' button on his website.
Edited 7/15/2009 6:38 am ET by Plancher_Fasciitis
Thanks, I must have missed the button on the website.
I had this idea a while back wanting to take some old planes and have the bottoms flattened. I live in the Minneapolis St. Paul area so I picked up a phone book and called a few places. Yes they could do what I wanted. The kicker for me was that it would cost something like $100 or $200 an hour for the service and a minimum of so many hours. In short, no single plane would take very long to grind but unless I had a lot of them, I'd probably be better off buying one from Veritas.
Let us know if you find a reasonably priced solution.
What you say there is reality: commercial concerns will have standard charge out rates applicable to certain machines and processes and in most cases it will be uneconomic to have something like an ordinary plane body ground by them, unless they have sufficient volume.
Goodguy needs to find either a friend or someone like a plane maker or enthusiast who has other motives for doing this work.
In my case I have found it to be useful in many ways such as gaining knowledge on the many different types and qualities of seemingly similar looking Stanley type planes, meeting people, promoting my plane making business etc etc. I have even sold furniture via contacts made through selling refurbished ordinary planes. So the actual revenue is pocket money/peanuts but the other benefits are far more valuable.Philip Marcou
Thanks for that information.
Your experience exactly agrees with mine in this area. As another responder pointed out, most shops don't want to do any of this unless you have many planes to grind. The reason I know it is possible is that I have had this done before... but that was thirty years ago, when my machinist pals were still alive. Despite what some people view as a "dangerous" avocation, I feel woodworking must be safer than metal working because ALL the machinists I knew are gone. Whereas my father worked wood for most of his 98 years! I too am getting up in age and have been around woodworking my entire life with no ill-effects.Regarding price...
I would be willing to pay a hundred dollars a piece to true-up two of these otherwise fine old planes. Even $200 might not be too bad for an extraordinary bargain plane that was otherwise good. When I look at the prices of new planes, I realize the amount of tooling, financing and craftsmanship goes into them, so I have no problem investing in quality. But like many others have discovered, we often find bargains at tool shows or estate sales and "get them for a song" as you say.That is the case here.
These planes I recently purchased are splendid examples of American and English workmanship. I want to revive them partly out of a sense of history. Also that makes me feel "connected" to my father's life-long woodworking. And even if I spend and extra two bills getting each of them perfect, they will still be less expensive than new planes of similar quality. Because these are such big planes, I know I couldn't touch a comparable LN or Veritas for $300. Even after I invested in the Hock blade/ chip-breakers, an extra $150 with shipping costs would leave me in the bargain zone.I know there must be someone in the USA who can perform this service accurately and economically. And thanks to all these replies, I know that there are others who could greatly benefit from such a service. So, I promise to keep looking! When I find that place, I will inform all of you here who were so considerate to lend me your time and knowledge. Many Thanks!
Edited 7/11/2009 4:12 am ET by goodguy
Perhaps you may find a machine shop that will do this at a low enough rate to make this an economical choice, but I'm skeptical. Around here (NC), machine shop time for one-off, low volume items is $150 per hour, and the hours charged are for the machining time as well as the set-up. That's not an uncommon rate - shops with a lot of CNC equipment can go much higher.
Anyway, there is a way to do this yourself if you choose to; I've done it to a couple of old stanleys, and the result was 90 degrees within my ability to measure it - less than 1/2 of one degree out.
You need a big powered jointer with a large cast-iron fence that's accurately machined. Set the fence square to the table with a very accurate engineer's square, and tighten the adjustments firmly (and measure it after you tighten it - often the act of clamping it down will move it a bit).
Using 3M #77 spray adhesive, glue down a couple of sheets of #80 Norton 3X Aluminum oxide paper to both the table and the fence. Then either carefully cut and fit a wooden infill block for the plane you wish to square, or do the lapping very gently. A lot of pressure on a plane's sidewalls that's unsupported with an infill block will usually flex, destroying the accuracy of the lapping.
Lap both the side and the bottom, checking where material is being removed with a sharpie, and monitoring your progress with the engineer's square you used to set the jointer's fence. Don't worry about getting both the side and the bottom flat at one time - concentrate on the side, as you'll need to flip the plane around to do the other side (assuming that you wish to do this), so the bottom will get twice the lapping time as the sides.
WoW!
Thank You!That is a beautifully simple idea!I work exclusively with hand tools, so I do not have a jointer in my shop. However, I have a friend with a jointer and I bet he will allow me to try this idea.Thank You Very Much!
The principle is quite good. I think someone who has an attack of the flats might consider making an "angle plate" out of wood to give the right angle, and mounting it horizontally so that it is easier to work the plane in the vee.Use of a metalite cloth belt would speed things up and there would be no desecration of the jointer .The ultimate would be a steel one but only for dedicated followers.....Philip Marcou
You might have one other choice. In my area there are several vocational technical schools with evening programs. I have taken some basic machining courses for a little over $100.00 and have gained access and knowledge of surface grinders among other metalworking machinery. If you have a school close by You could learn how to do it yourself and do as many as you want during the course.
That is a good idea!There was a vocational center downtown, however I'm afraid they changed their educational model to include more medical service stuff: dental hygienist, nursing, medical assistant, medical billing and the like.I thought of that same idea, but for a different purpose, several months ago when trying to find a good way to make some precision metal jigs. After searching this area, (via phone-book and internet) I found that ALL the vocational-training centers have stopped giving courses in anything related to manufacturing. Apparently, the insurance was killing them and the market was weak.I really like your idea though and think it has merit. I just can't do that right now with my other responsibilities, even if there was a decently-equipped vocational center within driving-range. Thank you for reminding me of that possibility though, and I will check neighboring cities and states for a place with such programs.Once again... THANK YOU for your reply!
If I can't find a machinist, I will consider that option!
I priced having a local shop (Los Angeles CA) surface grind the sole of my #7 as I was concerned about the flatness of the sole -- they quoted me about 100 dollars. Then I checked the flatness with feeler gauges and it wasn't that bad and the plane works well so I chickened out. I was concerned that they might screw it up! But I think the price was fair. If you are interested I could try to find out the name of the shop. I would look in the yellow pages for surface grinding for someplace reasonably local so you could talk to them. This shop asked me how out of flat it was as well as to what tolerance I wanted it ground. I wasn't concerned about the squareness of the sides so I didn't ask about that.
Thank you !I have called most of the small machine shops here in town and in the surrounding areas. Also, I have left messages on bulletin boards in those shops and even in the nearby eateries and bars. If you can find the name of that small shop in LA, I would appreciate it!It so happens that the last time I got some work like this done, it was in the Los Angeles area ( Culver City )With all the movie-construction and special apparatuses they make for films, I know there are talented machinists and well-equipped high-tech shops around LA. I built a recording studio in Sun City, ( north of LA) in 1978, and next door to it at the time was a handful of specialty shops that did just that! However, when I last investigated some of those types of shops though, they were WAY out of my price range.$100 bucks is very much IN my price range, so I do appreciate your consideration in finding that shop's name.Thanks again!
I sent you an email with the details.Joel
Thank you Sir!
I will look for that and check it out!
Try to find a shop that has a lapping machine. Not only can they flatten that plane fairly quickly but the finished product will be very smooth, like a babies bottom.
I had a jack plane of considerable sentimental value that was in dire need of fettling. 8 hours of continuous lapping by hand left me very tired and with still a long way to go. The local outfit where I took it did the work in an hour and only charged me $35 for the job. We shot the bull while they were doing the job. Turns out that the shop owner had inherited a #8 from his father. I think that my visit with my plane has gotten him thinking about the possibilities. That Sweetheart jack plane is one hell of a great tool. It used to belong to my wife's father, and she is very pleased that I was able to salvage it (it was in really rough shape when I first saw it).
Make sure that they turn the plane end for end regularly so that an equal amount of metal is removed from each side/end. Best of luck.
Big,
Any chance of you going back to that shop and taking a few pictures of the lapping machine? And of the finished job on your plane?Philip Marcou
Phillip,
Earlier this decade I was part owner of a very large machining & stamping operation and we had a lapping machine. The machine was very similar to the one Lee Valley employs for their blades and soles. It also required fixturing to hold/orient the piece being lapped. In our case (IIRC) the fixtures were machined alum. made to the exterior dimensions of the subject. The lapping machine operated in a circular fashion under the fixture. I don't recall the need to reverse the subject parts though (in fairness, I was very rarely on the shop floor).
Even though I was involved with handtools back then, the thought didn't occur to me to use the machine for lapping soles of planes. However, even today, I would be somewhat of the opinion that lapping to a tenth of a thousandth, or even half a thousandth is being anal (at least for my capabilities and the wood I work with). I have had planes surface ground by a couple of my guys and for the ones I did, it really helped. To others: I am not interested in doing this work as my plant is a manufacturing plant and not a machine shop! We simply have several machinists to support our production equipment.
T.Z.
Hi Tony,
The machine you describe sounds like a Blanchard Grinder in which the grinding wheel operates on its face rather than on the edge (think floor polisher). I got the impression from Big that he was referring to something reciprocating, using loose grits, but I may be wrong.
Re tenths of thous and half thous in connection with plane soles- I agree with you and would even say that nobody, but nobody , is going to cause a woodworking disaster by using a plane that is even as much as 4 thou out: the fact is that 99.9% are "out" by that amount or more.However, relating to ordinary Stanley types, if there is a strong urge to reclaim one , then the quickest way for me to clean it up and cure any problems such as the mouth not being clean at the leading edge or locally flat, or the sides being horribly out of square, is to surface grind- it takes less than 30 minutes on average.And, yes, there is the choice: one can buy new ones and be happy until someone else comes along and says "You must lap that flat".
I am not referring to more sophisticated planes, which are affected by such tolerances and do benefit from higher tolerances since they have the design to take it.Philip Marcou
Edited 7/22/2009 12:54 am by philip
Phillip,
We also had a blanchard grinder and the lapping machine was somewhat similar in operation but no where as heavily manufactured. What I remember about the blanchard grinder was a finish somewhat similar to that obtained on a stationary tablesaw.
Our primary product were gas meters and large valves. In retropect sometimes I wish I would have taken the time to learn more about the equipment we utilized.
Did you feel any effects from the quake last week? I saw a tsunami warning was issued for NZ.
TZ
I am sorry Phillip, but you are talking to a technological neanderthal (I am very proud of this "insult" that was given by an associate). I don't own a digital camera and wouldn't know what to do if I had one. Tony gave a pretty good description of what a lapping machine looks like.
As a response to what Tony said about lapping a plane to within a couple of thousanths; Tony must have missed where I said that after 8 hours of hard labor there was still a lot of lapping to do. I was talking about a huge problem on a plane that had signifcant sentimental value. To many that plane is only a #5 Sweetheart, to my wife and to me that plane is much more.
You guys are over-thinking this. Unless Tablesaw Tom is not accepting work for some reason, he has the tooling and the experience to do the job for a reasonable fee. I can tell you one thing about going out and finding just any machine shop to do the job. By the time they have learned on your plane you might have very little of the plane sole left. Lapping is another approach, but again, you have to have a fixture made to hold the plane.
They did the lapping freehand/ no special jig was used.
Try Practical Machinist website. Most of these fellows are machinists,I am sure there are at least several people there that could do the work for you.
mike
OK I will. Thank you!
You may want to track down your local community college. If they have a machine shop program, the instructor may help you out.
Teaching the students to mill a square and flat surface, adjacent to another, may be a skill he/she wants to instruct. I'm sure the cost would be minimal, or even free
Hope this helps
Gregory Paolini
http://www.GregoryPaolini.com
Gregory,
That's a good suggestion, and one I have investigated. However, here in my town the local "trade" school programs have all dried-up or changed to medical billing, dental, nursing and legal-assistant training. It seems that when the once-prominent manufacturing jobs left the city, (and the country) so did the educational programs that would support them. Even the venerable Anthis Career Center no longer has any programs for woodworking, machining, carpentry, plumbing or other trade skills. I find it curious that all the programs they decommissioned are those blue-collar professions that were Unionized. The new trade-skills they teach are related to legal or medical stuff, (especially billing) and none of them are Unionized.I sincerely appreciate your suggestion though, and have begun calling schools in neighboring towns. So far, nothing viable has turned up. If something DOES turn up, I will be sure to post again in this forum to inform all the helpful folks who, like you, have offered suggestions or advice. I provide this extra information in reply to your post to demonstrate my interest and to show I think the idea is good. I also thought others might be interested in what my investigations of that idea have uncovered.Perhaps some of you here feel as I do: a strong sense of history in the humble yet noble trades of yesteryear... a connection with the Art and Craft that are the foundation of a great nation. The skills of woodworking, machining, carpentry, and so many related trades are part of what built our country. The new narrow-focus educational system seems skewed. Certainly here in my town, the noble trades and the practical education that fosters them are being eviscerated. If we are to maintain our aging infrastructure, rebuild the economy and remain independent, we need skilled craftsmen in ALL trades, not just paralegal and medical billing assistants. That's just one of the things I appreciate about this forum: there is a wealth of experience and knowledge among you. We must never let that fade away. So I sincerely appreciate the replies from all here. I promise to keep you posted when I find anything useful on this specific topic.Many Thanks!
G
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled