Hi everyone,
I took a trip to Nashville, TN over the weekend. I just had to stop in at the local Woodcraft, there.
They have a Rikon 18″ BS. That caught my eye because I have a General International 18″ BS (sorry don’t know the model #). And both were priced at $1,000. So I gave the Rikon a really good looking over. It looks like; it is well built. It also had some features that my saw doesn’t have: A blade tensioning crank at the bottom of the upperwheel housing, blade viewing window, better fence, bigger resaw capacity.
I asked the salesman where it was made. China. “Mmmn….” My GI BS is made in Taiwan.
So, my question is to those who are better informed, is there a difference between buying something made in China vs. Taiwan?
For political, economical (and Okay, emotional) reasons, I prefer not to buy stuff made in China. I would prefer if everything I bought was made right here in the USA.
I just don’t want my money going to someone I could see being our future enemy.
Now if Delta could just make everything in the states….OR if the US would put a high enough tariff on the some of the foreign stuff to make American made stuff price competitive.
Replies
Chilly:
First off-- I dont want to sound anti American...but get used to buying products made in Asia. Simply put we (America) can not compete with Asian labor rates. Also, just because it is made in Asia does not mean that it is not a quality product. You would be suprised by the sophisiticated factories in Asia. I know. I work as a product manager for Schlage lock. Many products i deal with are produced in Asia. The quality is as good as anywhere. Do not get hung up on where it is made. If the company responsible for the product is reputable like Schlage or Delta or Porter Cable etc.... then the specifications for the product are good. It does not matter where it is made. In fact if it is made in the USA, you can be sure that it will cost more. Americans are laborers have demanded high wages to keep pace with our inflation. And the quality will be no better than if made abroad. It amazes me how many people on this forum really beleive that Asian made products are junk.
To answer your original question, the main difference between China made and Taiwan made products is labor cost. Products made in Taiwan typically cost more than products made in China. Taiwan demands a higher labor cost in China.
Anyway-- I sincerely hope that this does not cause a yet another controversial thread on Asian made products vs. American made products. Frankly, that debate is trite.
I do not mean to sound blunt, but that debate has been beat to the ground--almost to China (LOL).
Take care
Thank you,
The Great Marko
Anyway-- I sincerely hope that this does not cause a yet another controversial thread on Asian made products vs. American made products. Frankly, that debate is trite.
I have been to China two times.. Two times about two monts total.. Just to get our beautiful Granddaughters..
In REAL CHINA!.. Well, the folks are really nice to you ( my neighbors in the US shoot at me ) Sort of.. Not sure who..
Just a joke... but the folks in China are really nice to Americans.. Not sure why!
Could be we buy their stuff!
Edited 3/17/2005 9:30 pm ET by Will George
Hey Will,
I wasn't really looking into starting a thread on American vs. Asian products. That subject is such a dead horse.
I think the general concensus on Asian stuff, especially Chinese or Taiwan items, is that the price is lower and everybody expects their quality to be less. The "you get what you pay for" school of thought. But obviously their quality and features on tools is getting better all the time. They are catching up, so to speak. Some people think of buying their stuff as a crap shoot. Or for the money that they are saving versus buying a US made product, they can tweak that tool to their liking, and still come out ahead.
It seems like some manufactureers, like Delta and Powermatic, are continually expanding their product lines to include Chinese and Taiwanese made items. I would be nervous working at one of their US plants. It seems like it is a matter of time before their whole lines will be made overseas. "Okay guys, you get this kind of severance package if you help crate everything up and load it on to these trucks, OR you can leave now."
Back to my original point, I would say that China can be a future enemy. I don't want my money to be supporting their army. Not to mention their poor human rights policies.
If they have 1.5 billion people, where do they get all that food to feed them? Are they self-supporting in that respect? Do we ship them beans, wheat and corn?
The thing to watch out for with stuff from mainland China is metalurgy. I had a pair of channel locks from China that looked fine, but snapped the first time I squeezed hard on them. Ditto with some brass screws that broke being driven by hand. QC from Taiwan is OK, but from the mainland, I'd avoid anything where you depend on the strength of any metal part for more than a few hundred psi.
-- J.S.
This debate is anologous to made in US vs made in Japan, then made in Japan vs made in Taiwan, and now made in Taiwan vs made in China. China is certainly capable of making high quality products, but in the early stages of any transitions there are bumps in the road. China is getting there. I get a more comfortable feel when I see made in Taiwan, but that's certainly not a quantifiable quality indicator.
The new Sears 22124 and Delta 36-717 hybrid are both made in China. I haven't seen the Delta yet, but the 22124 looks pretty impressive. The end quality is in large part a reflection of the design specifications and quality control that the contracting company passes to the manufacturing company. Parts that are poorly specified or not specified will almost certainly get the very basic level quality. If QC is not specified, your at the mercy of a Chinese worker to determine acceptable quality levels. Things may have been assumed that were previously made in the States that now need to be spelled out very literally. Not all companies contracting with plants in China have learned all these details yet. In time I suspect all these details will all be ironed out and Chinese quality will improve like Japan's and Taiwan's. Then China's labor rates will go up and the big companies will move their manufacturing off to Laos or wherever else they can make the most profit.
You would like the US to put tariffs on imports so the US stuff is price competative? Why would you want to get rid of a cheaper option?
You would like the US to put tariffs on imports so the US stuff is price competative? Why would you want to get rid of a cheaper option?
That sounds like a pretty political statement. We better move this thread over to the cafe.
Hello again everybody,
Really, when I orginally posted this question, it more about a money trail.
Does China get money, like taxes, when Taiwan makes a product?
Does the money stay with Taiwan?
Of course, in an ideal world, I would only buy tools from American manufacturers. They have to abide by OSHA, EPA, and NLRB regs. And at the end of the year, when their profits get taxed, that money goes back to our US government.
Chills,
Taiwan is for all intents and purposes a seperate country than China. We used to pretend China didn't exist and ONLY recognized Taiwan and called IT China. Taiwan pays nothing to mainland China.
As for corporations paying tax that ends up here, very little does. Take Ingersol Rand, they are now based in Bermuda. Their HQ in Bermuda consists of a drop box but that HQ owns all the trademarks and other corporate property and so they escape paying a massive amount of US taxes. Not sure if Delta is doing it yet but it is a major trend.
Jacks,our biggest supplier of tools and machinery (NZ) tell me that the Quality of Taiwan kit is up with the best German and Italian tools.
A top notch commercial jointer is $5000 from Taiwan,same thing from Italy is $10000.
He said when he was in China he saw parts being made for Wainig,they are the cream of 4 sider makers.
To answer your question about money,
Taiwan has a completely independant economy and taxation system from mainland china. The economic bond between the two countries exsists within it's population, many prominent taiwanese and chinese business people own and operate companies in both countries for cost and quality reasons. The strongest link is within immigration law that is dominated by chinese policy and recognized internationally. A taiwanese citizen must carry a passport that reads "Republic of China" whereas a Chinese Citizen's passport reads "Peoples Republic of China" as though they were being branded and forced into inclusion and yet not accepted as an equal member.
I do business with several people in taiwan and I have visited factories in Taiwan where equipment is made and I would have to agree with earlier posts that give a thumbs up to taiwanese quality. The taiwanese are hard working, well educated, and very proud of the quality of the products they manufacture and they immediately distinguish themselves as beeing a cut above China.
You have to remember that before the second world war Taiwan was part of the Japanese empire, and many of the elderly don't read or write in mandarin. There are many cultural diferences that seperate these two countries. Taiwan also has it's own language and has become a real melting pot of many different asian cultures. Taiwan is a democratic state that holds elections, and governs itself completely independantly of China. I hope that the recent events boiling up in China and Taiwan don't create problems for the Taiwanese people, they are some of the most wonderful people I have met. I would recomend a trip there to anyone, It's not the prettiest place to visit but there is much to see and learn from a country that has created it's own economic strength and independence from the ashes of the conflicts that have formed it.
Since visiting taiwan I have been keeping my eye on taiwanese woodworking machinery and I've bought a couple of different tools that I've been very happy with, so I say give the taiwanese a hand and buy their products, they are an excelent trading partner for the USA and they could use the help right now.
By the way, someone made a comment about Taiwan having nuclear weapons. If you look into the Taiwanese military you will find that the biggest supplier is the USA (they've proposed a 14 billion dollar missle defense system to protect themselves from china). The only reason that they have a military presence is to keep up with the constant chess match that China forces them into playing. This recent series of laws that were passed in China is just to increase pressure on the Taiwanese government. Interesting how a country that is so small like Taiwan can have their giant neighbor worried about their independence??
I'd be interested to hear what anyone has to say about the current political tension between the two countries.
We are not allowed to discuss the current political tension between the two countries. The cafe is for that. I'm goin' for brownie points!
Heck with the brownie points................. Discuss anything you want, and make the Sysop decide if the whole thing should be moved behind the new "iron curtain".
Ssshhhh. Big brother might be listening.
Please take this to the cafe.
<<<"Please take this to the cafe.>>>Huh?? Take what to the cafe?
We have lost the ability, for complex reasons, to profitably produce certain items, mostly unskilled or semi skilled services and manufactured products for say a 20% to 50% mark up. However, because we are a highly educated country and allow the best and brightest from other nations to continue to immigrate to this country and increase our intellectual edge, we have switched from low mark up products to high skilled value added products and services with 100% and more mark up. Most of us and the country are doing just fine. The challenge for America is not to dwell on what was, but to make sure we keep ahead of the competition intellectually. The race is not machines, natural resources, or even military, it's the education and training of our most precious resource, our people.We don't care if every nation on earth goes to the moon as long as we're the only ones looking back at them from Mars.Never serious, but always right.
Thanks everyone for your response.
Yes, at some point this thread should have been booted to the behind locked doors Cafe.
I had a big old long rant ready to go here, but I deleted it. Being a union carpenter/millwright, you can imagine what kind of tone it would have taken.
What's the point? Most people won't get it any way, or they just don't care.
Yes, MR. MODERATOR, I started this thread. Please, kick the whole thing to the Cafe.
Very introspective Russ. But I don't know if the bulk of the people in this country are as educated as you may think we are. I could list a dozen examples of a growing intellectual inferiority of this country (as opposed to lets say Canada) and you could probably list as many pointing in the other direction.
I'm afraid that may be true. But the emphasis on No Child Left Behind and although they don't want to admit it, national testing, means someone's aware and thinking about it. However, our deficit's may not allow us the resources to fund education and compete. Ans successfully compete we must.Never serious, but always right.
Russ, Gregk1 post #22513.36 proves my point about the growing intellectual inferiority of this country.
:-)Never serious, but always right.
Brainmexico,
If you read the handwriting on the wall China already showed how it intends to annex Tiawan. The issue really has been settled and everybody is now just going thru the moves.
Spending 14 billion will only provide China with American technology, but since China is a slow dragon (except when provoked) the matter may well be mote by the time China has fully annexed Tiawan. The US will only sell short range defencesive type missles Something that China has had a hand at making for decades now.. Oh sure we may provide China with a few neat little nuances in our more sophisticated missles but theirs work OK already..
I think the Chinese should design all the boxes for their tools to look like giant fortune cookies. Then their would be no mistake where they come from. Plus, those Chinese that hide in the shipping containers could feed on them during the trip.
Hey Greg, if they taught you to read in Redneck piece of sh*t school then you could probably see the words made in China written on it. Hey maybe you could get some of those giant fortune cookies and feed the youngin's when the squirrel supply runs low huh? Peter
I think marko got it right -- doesn't matter where it's made. What does matter is if the company marketing the saw is setting the specs, and monitoring the completed product, and then standing behind it if anything does go wrong.
Rikon is fairly new to the US market, so I would be extra careful; maybe try to find a half dozen names of people who have bought the tool you are considering, and see what they think of it.
BTW, my theory is the more we buy from China, the less likely there will be a conflict between us and them. The larger issue is what this country will do when China finally makes its move to take over Taiwan -- which is inevitable.
Taiwan is Part of China!! At least they think so....
China just made a law about Taiwan..
Beijing/Taipei, March 14 (Reuters): China passed a law today granting itself the right to attack Taiwan if it moves towards formal independence, drawing protests from the island and a rebuke from Washington.
I have the 18 inch Rikon and am pleased with it...
No markings on the saw about China OR Taiwan.. Small installation manual states printed in China..
[Taiwan is Part of China!! At least they think so....China just made a law about Taiwan.. China puts threat to Taiwan into law
Beijing/Taipei, March 14 (Reuters): China passed ...]
Could be a problem... as some reports have pegged Taiwan as having 2 nuclear weapons and medium range surface to surface misssile capability, as well as their own native fighter aircraft/interceptor program... Strangelovian...?
Might want to buy the saw now (and get spare parts...)
Glaucon
Tarifs aren't going to happen. If we tariff their products, then they tariff ours. Then we pay more money for stuff, and lose jobs. Then the economy tanks! Thankfully Washington knows this, so it will (should) never happen.
Save the debate and buy a Laguna
Wicked Decent Woodworks
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
"Save the debate and buy a Laguna..."
But, is Laguna REALLY better or do the owners of Laguna equipment believe so simply because they PAID more???
:')
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
i dunno........I only want one. My Reliant 14' made in Taiwan will probably be with me forever thoughWicked Decent Woodworks
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
But, is Laguna REALLY better ... Bill got it!
I have a 18" RIKON and am more than OK with it.. I called Laguna before I got the saw and I thought I was talking to my old drill-sargent!
I thought I was bothering them calling????
Yeah, tarrifs aren't the answer, but inflation isn't the reason products made in Asia are cheaper. Inflation has been running at an all time low in the USA for years. I don't know the exact number, but it's below 5%. Asia's labor costs are a lot lower because they don't pay for health insurance, their environmental cost are nothing (Bejing's air quality is awful.), and stuff like that.
I'm really conflicted about this. China's our number 1 or 2 trade parner, and is one of the biggest benefactors ?) of our trade deficit. They throw up insurmountable barriers to our manufactured goods, but love out open market. I don't know how long our economy can absorb that.
They have managed to graft the good of capitalism onto a repressive dictatorship. Something that is anathema to our understanding of capitalism. The founding fathers talked abotu a "free market of ideas," something they brutally stamp out.
The Chinese are also the worst pirates of intelectual property int the world. They don't respect patnets, trademarks or copyrights, which are the only rights recognized in the Constitution. All our other rigths, which they don't give a damn about, are in the Bill of Rights.
I still like good, cheap tools, which they provide so I'm stuck.
Sorry if this post is inappropriate for this topic.
The Chinese are also the worst pirates of intelectual property int the world.. YEP THEY DO!
I have two adopted grandbabies from China.. They take all my smarts and smile at me... I love em' A WHOLE LOT!
From another perspective, I have been to Taiwan and had a wonderful time. The people were friendly, hardworking, and very intelligent. They are also strong allies to the US and strongly independent of mainland China and wish to stay that way. I would think buying from Taiwan as a much better choice than China.
Taiwan has lost, China has already won the war. China owns a massive chunk of the US debt and all they have to do is dump the dollar to cause a massive currency crisis (look what happened when S. Korea started selling a month ago). When they are ready and their economy is large enough to absord their own production (which will happen soon) they will just whisper in the ear of a US president to not intervene or face hyperinflation (beceuse the Arabs will want to be paid in Euros or Yuan instead of dollars) and the US will suddenly find itself with all its carriers in dry dock and us wringing our hands crying crocodile tears over Taiwan.
Don't buy Chinese products if you can help it, they are NOT our friend, global economy or not.
Michael
You forget that 85% of the manufacturing in china is directly connected to the chinese military. And everytime you buy from the national (company) store aka "walmart" you support that crap. WE got 260 million and they got almost 1.5 billion people. think that they care if they lose a couple hundred million in a war. Were doing the same thing we did with japan before WWII. But everyone will laugh till it actually happens.Life: The ultimate video game, and your the target
Not sure what you think I forgot. I worked for a company that imported Chinese AKs which was called Norinco which IS the military, same factory that supplied Vietnam (factory 66).
I have never even set foot in a Walmart, I despise the entire concept.
They are playing a game of international chess, we are funding them, and our leader thinks it is a friendly game of checkers...
As far as quality goes, I believe stuff made in an ISO 2001 factory is much better made(anyone have more details about ISO certification?). As far as US security goes Taiwan is our freind, China likely our opponent in World War 4. If we survive the current WW3.
KDMKenneth Duke Masters
The Bill of Rights
December 15 1791
NRA Endowment Member
LEAA Life Member
CRPA Member
You may have taken me wrong. i totally agree with you. Just thought I would add a little more to the stew :) But then the baseball steroif issue is of much more importance ! :)There are four boxes to be used in defence of liberty: soap, ballot, jury and ammo. Please use in that order - Ed Howdershelt
Good Evening,
Our household looks at the label. If the product says made in China, Vietnam, Somalia, Ethiopia, Yemen, Loas, or Cambodia we pass on it. Why? These countries still have no problem using slave or political labor. (Perhaps an ISO 9001 factory does not have slave labor due to the quality of the product.)
As for Walmart. Walmart seems to have five versions or companies for every product. If one of those products is made in the US, they will stock it. We buy the US made product at Walmart, even at a hight cost of course.
Here is an interesting fact. When the Communists of China took over in 1948 there were about 800,000 Christians. There are now more Christians in China, and I do mean Main Land China, then there Commuists.
We do buy freely from Canada, Mexico, all of Europe, Cental and South America, Honk Kong, and Taiwan. You can buy some basic clothing (scarves) from Afghanistan now on the web which is probably not child explotation. Have not seen any products from Iraq. We would not hesitate to purchase from Iraq or Afghanistan since they are fledgling democracies.
We do not buy clothes from Bangladesh, India, or Pakistan due to child explotation.
Of all the companies we boycot, Nike is on the top of the list. Their child and women explotation factories in Vietnam are well documented.
When ever possible, we buy tools made here in the US. We need the jobs here and not an unemployment line. I know I got off the tool topic, but wanted to share with everyone.
Thanks for listening.
My 2 cents; in general I think equipment from Taiwan is a cut above quality wise than that from mainline China even from the same brand. The fit and finish on my Delta dust collector (Taiwan) is much better that of my drill press (China). The drill press works well but the difference in paint, fit and finish is obvious. imho both are much improved over years past. I consider Delta's US built contractor saws (36-505X, 36-507X) superior to the imported ones, in particular the motors. In the mere mortal price range it's hard to find new stationary equipment that is US built; it really is a world economy with parts outsourced from everywhere. More important to me these days is the company behind the equipment. PC, Delta, Jet, PM, MM, Makita, Milwaukee have or will get my $.
I have a 1952 unisaw, 1959 unisaw, 1949 boice crane shaper (you can barely hear run), 1970 Stanley router. I turn them on everyday with out complaint. minimal maitenance, original motors (go figure) . Now ,except for some bosch tools nothin I have bought in the last 10 years goes for more than 6mo-3 years. So how are tools cheaper and a better buy today. The plasic breaks, they shake,rattle, nuts and bolts fall off. and you spend hours (money) huntin down parts. Less you believe I am hard on tools. I get some best results from the higher? end ryobi tools.:For everywoodworker who dies we lose a library:There are four boxes to be used in defence of liberty: soap, ballot, jury and ammo. Please use in that order - Ed Howdershelt
A bit off topic but I just bought a fancy new KitchenAid Pro waffle maker. Carefully looked over the outer then the inner box, all the paperwork and then finally on the bottom of the machine-China. What happened to the law that says country of origin must be clearly stated?
KDMKenneth Duke Masters
The Bill of Rights
December 15 1791
NRA Endowment Member
LEAA Life Member
CRPA Member
Edited 3/29/2005 9:39 am ET by duke-one
> I have a 1952 unisaw, .... minimal maitenance, original motors
Mine's circa 1939 - 40, and I had to replace the motor a couple years ago. (I know it was the original motor, my grandfather bought it new) So, you may have another ten years or so. Maybe more if you clean up the commutator and give it new brushes.
-- J.S.
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