Replies

1. 
   MikeHennessy | Oct 22, 2007 02:32pm | #1

   So much for the photo attachment. ;-)    Might want to try again -- I'd like to see what it is you are trying to achieve.

   You are correct that doors are usually made with M&T joinery. Many times, the tennon goes all the way through the door, but that is no longer really necessary since glues are so strong now. In A&C work, the tennons are often through and pinned or wedged as a design element.

   Depending on how heavy the door is, and how wide the rails (horizontal parts) are, you could probably make your tennons 3 or 4" deep. These can be either traditional fixed tennons or loose tennons ( just pieces of wood that slip into mortises on either side of the joint).

   Making doors is not an easy project. You need to pay particular attention to stock preparation, making sure the parts and joints are perfectly square and straight. Any small imperfection can result in making a sprung door that can't be corrected.

   Mike Hennessy
   Pittsburgh, PA

2. 
   brad805 | Oct 23, 2007 12:01am | #2

   You might want to take a look at Artisans Doors or the Rogue sites.  I also found some beautiful A&C doors from a shop in CA, but cannot recall their site.  As Mike alludes to, it is a big job and the tooling is different than for cab doors purely due to the size difference.  Before I started building my interior doors I posted a similar question.  JP suggested Stave Core construction and after researching I agreed that this was the safest bet.  The woodweb has some of the best discussions I found on this topic, lots of arguing, but once you sift through it you will be able to decide.  Norm has a show where he built an entrance door, but I was not really all that impressed with the construction suggested.  I used M&T joinery (3" long tenons), but found many examples of biscuits and dowels connections.  Many M&T the top/bottom rails only as this will help prevent the door racking, but I opted to M&T all rail/stil joints.  For the bottom rail I used a double M&T joint.  The joinery will be dependent upon the physical size of the door elements.  Lots of information on this topic around. 

   Best of luck.  Try posting the pic again plz.

   
1. 
   pmacaula | Oct 23, 2007 04:25am | #3

   Thanks for the pointers. Here are the attached photos. Am most interested in the specifics of the M&T joints. Through a bit of reading on FW.com and a few other sites, seems like there are a few techniques that might make for really tight/strong joints:

   - M&T with dowels to extend length/bonding surface

   - use epoxy on joints

   - put a haunch on the tenons

   The door will be 34" wide, 82" high and about 1-3/4" thick (door in the photo is 36" wide & 82" high) and plan is to use oak.

   Any additional thoughts on the suitability of different techniques for this type of door ?

   I live in Southern Ontario, so the temp goes from warm/humid in the summer (90F+ degrees) to cold/dry in the winter. The door would be on the north side of the house and is sheltered by a porch roof and a screen/glass outer door.

    

   Thanks. Patrick.

   
1. 
   MikeHennessy | Oct 23, 2007 02:36pm | #4

   Nice door.

   You should be able to make this without too much difficulty. Since this door has no sticking (moulded trim around the panels), there is a pretty easy way to put this together. You can cheat on the M&Ts by simply running a deep groove down the side stiles -- as deep as you can get with your dado blade in your TS. Then just cut the ends of the rails as full-width tennons that will fit in the groove. The groove should be about 1/3 the thickness of the piece. Same with the center stile. The vertical elements will have deeper grooves than is normal, so you'll have to make your panels wider. Your horizontal elements should only need to be grooved a 1/2" or so. I'd make the panels out of 1/2" stock, or exterior ply if you can find some to match your choice of wood. If you make the panels out of ply, you can make them a bit loose and use some silicone caulk to bed them. If you use solid stock, make them snug, since they must float. (This is very important in panel construction, especially in exterior locations. You MUST allow for wood movement or your panels will crack.)

   Since this is to be an exterior door, white oak would be a good choice, and in keeping with the style. (Red Oak is NOT a good exterior wood -- it wicks up water like a sponge and is therefor prone to rot.) Exterior doors are usually 1-3/4" thick, so finding stock may be a bit of a challenge, depending on your local sources. As another poster suggests, you could use stave construction, but that involves veneering and, IMHO, this introduces problems of its own and, in my experience, tends to delaminate in exposed conditions.

   Another option is to make the door using three-layer construction. This is perhaps the easiest method, provided you have the ability to thickness your stock. In this method, you build up the door in three layers, alternating the wood to make a series of lap joints. This type of door is pretty easy to make and is strong. There was an article in FHB or FWW a few years ago (?) about making doors by this method -- you might want to search it out. This method has the advantage of requiring far less joint accuracy and uses thinner (more easily obtainable) stock.

   I would steer clear of epoxy. Titebond III is a good exterior glue that will be plenty strong for this application. Also, to reiterate my prior post, M&T joints for a door this size is NOT an easy project unless you have the ability to get everything perfectly square. That means some pretty nice machinery or a LOT of prior practice with hand tools.

   Have you priced beveled glass? ;-(

   Fun project.

   Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA

2. 
   jackplane | Oct 23, 2007 05:14pm | #5

   I have to disagree a bit with Mike on this one.

   I built an exterior door, north facing, of red oak with raised panels and epoxy joints, ten years ago, still going strong.

   A good two part epoxy with a long open time works well here if you use a drill press to hog out m and t joints, and clean up with chisels- has better gap filling than any other glue. Red or white oak doesn't matter here as you should seal all end grain and the whole door with several coats of poly/varnish.

   Draw pins/dowels help but aren't needed and are not authentic on Arts and Crafts doors. A standard tenon offers more glue surface area than a haunched tenon.

   You should do fine, esp. since the door will be covered by a porch.Expert since 10 am.

3. 
   tarsalas | Oct 23, 2007 07:31pm | #6

   Just last week I watched a rerun of Norm building an exterior door. Plans and video should be available from the New Yankee Workshop web site.

1. 
   pmacaula | Oct 24, 2007 04:27am | #7

   Mike, Jackplane & tarsalas,

   Thanks very much for all of your ideas and input,  clearly there are a number of approaches. My primary consideration is that it not be too difficult to produce and that lasts in a pritty important spot in the housrt.

   Am tweaking up my CAD drawings and now working on pricing out the lumber (and the glass !) for a few alternatives.

   My preference is for solid oak framework and panels, but as pointed out, it might be a bit costly - depends a bit on the how pricey the other alternatives are.

   Will post further once I have things a bit more sorted and have another round of questions :-)

   Cheers. Patrick.