Replies

1. 
   QCInspector | May 03, 2006 12:24pm | #1

   An alternative to the molding planes would be your router table and some home made scratch beaders.

   If you look at the cross section of the molding and break down the shapes into simpler ones that match basic router bits, ( coves, beads, square, etc.) and orientate the stock on the flat or on edge as needed. You should be able to duplicate the profiles you have with multiple passes.

   Any areas that need to be refined can done with sand paper, or some of the hacksaw blades filed to shape and used in a scratch stock/beader.

   The table saw can be used for some of the cuts including coving too.

2. 
   jackplane | May 03, 2006 06:06pm | #2

   G'day mate.

    I don't think it practical to build a plane for such a short run, unless you'll value this tool for a later job, and unless you have plenty of time. As prescribed by QC, I'd run this on a router/ tablesaw and make a jig when necessary, far quicker than building a new tool.

    

1. 
   Patto | May 04, 2006 06:06am | #3

   Hi,

   Glad you think 10-15 meters is a short run. I do have access to a Stanly 55 that has probably never been used (certainly not by me or the current owner).

   My suspicion is that these planes were probably designed for just such short runs.

   My other undeclared motive is that I would like eventually to make a pair (L&R handed) of panel raising planes (with squiggle shape) that are really worth keeping. After my first plane making attempt, as usual, my respect for the craft increased lots. Therefore doing a one-off to make painted building products would be a means of improving plane making technique - including tuning.

   Dave

3. 
   lwilliams | May 04, 2006 04:47pm | #4

   David,

   I'm not sure what your molding actually looks like. An ovolo is basically a quarter round with fillets or small flat defining features. I'd expect a "squiggle" to mean an ogee. I don't know what to recommend without understanding what you're trying to make but, from your description, you aren't going to need long lengths so hand planes should work fine.

   Spring is basically used to control mouth opening and to get the profile of the plane to run as close as 90º to the sides of the plane. It also has the advantage of requiring some force to keep the plane running on an integral fence.

1. 
   Patto | May 05, 2006 06:52am | #5

   Thanks for the response,

   Squiggle is a good word, but looks like Ogee is the more precise term.

   The attached file shows what we are after (only roughly to scale). The actual architrave has been made up of 3 pieces. These must have been assembled after the mouldings were shot because of the way it has been laid up on the wall as shown in the second fle.

   My suspicion is that this might have been done with two planes, certainly it might be easier than making and using a single plane for the whole job. But, would a single plane provide a more consistent result in experienced hands?

   So our (economic) question is; is reproducing 15 meters of this by hand (including making the planes) an economic proposition compared with shopping out to a spindle moulder and perhaps having cutters ground for the Ogee (suspect that anyone who could do this would have suitable bead cutters in lots of sizes)?

   If so, are there any (non IP stuff) major traps?

   Thanks,

   Dave

   
1. 
   mwenz | May 05, 2006 07:21am | #6

   Hi Dave,

   My feeling is that a firm specialing in architectural molding work would be the least expensive in terms of time and money. We would have run that for a 2-3 hundred dollar set up fee and about 6-8 bucks a foot.

   Working them by hand. I would see if Lee at The Best Things currently has the molding planes available to do this molding. He may.

   Take care, Mike

2. 
   lwilliams | May 05, 2006 03:17pm | #9

   Dave,The wider backing can be made with a side bead. These are sized by the overall width of the molding profile.The banding is what John Whelan would call an astrigal-ogee-astrigal. It could be made with an astrigal, center bead and a couple hollows and rounds. A moving fillister and plow plane would be helpful but a Stanley #45 could rough out the details and establish locations. You could attempt a plane that would do the whole thing but you'll find it a lot easier to rough out the shape before using such a big complex molding plane. One caution is that the cutting geometry of planes that cut 180º arcs require a lot of attention.

1. 
   Patto | May 08, 2006 05:09am | #17

   Larry

   Fascinating, and like all new areas the lexicon seems to be half the battle.

   Is there a source on these shapes and how they were used? Preferably one that doesnt spend 30% telling me about smoothing planes and what sort of sharpening stones I need?

   The reason I ask is that there is clearly a sequence for doing lots of this stuff that makes it work well. There also seems to be a bit of knowlege tied up in issues such as which planes to tackle which task. Still interested in this outside the problem of the architrave.

   Dave

3. 
   eddiefromAustralia | May 06, 2006 12:57pm | #13

   Patto,

   Try here:http://www.fedwood.com.au/cat/?op=sp&id=162http://www.fedwood.com.au/cat/?op=sp&id=163http://www.tabma.com.au/NSW/tabma_(nsw)_member.htm

   They may already be tooled up ready to go - being a Vic moulding, it is more likely that a Vic heritage specialist may have it.  The TABMA list there should have a Victorian list of members as well.

   For the wierd and wonderfuls like this one, I use Crescent Timber in Annandale.  They don't have a website but they've got a lot larger range of mouldings.  Contact details in above TABMA page

   Cheers,

   eddie

4. 
   Troy | May 07, 2006 05:41pm | #14

   This profile looks very familiar you might take a look at either San Francisco Victoriana or White Brothers in Oakland CA. Both have a catolog and they also ship. I don't know what they would charge but it might be something to consider.Good luckTroy

5. 
   Troy | May 07, 2006 05:45pm | #15

   Your profile looks like several in the catologs from San Francisco Victoriana also in the White brothers in Oakland CA catolog. I don't know what the shipping cost would be for that but it might be an option.
   On the other hand making planes can be fun.Good luck Troy

4. 
   hdgis1 | May 05, 2006 08:16am | #7

   If its going to be painted, why not just a plaster cast of existing piece and go from there.

1. 
   Patto | May 05, 2006 10:13am | #8

   The short answer to that would be we dont want to. Slightly longer:

   The house is a heritage listed victorian house built in 1872. For those familiar, it was the Architects house from the first sub-division east of the Yarra.

   There is plenty of plaster in the place - large corbels and some curved mouldings over two arches, large and fully painted ceiling roses etc. The timber, however looks like timber even under the paint. 100+ years of the odd bash from furniture and brooms are all soft dents rather than broken chips.

   My father, who owns the house, is also a craftsman within the limits of age and what he can con his sons into. All of the internal walls are being repaired useing hard plaster rater than gyprock and each cornice and ceiling rose is hand detailed.

   The offset is that he is 73 and feeling mortal. He would like to have the lounge and dining habitable while he can still put in half a day's work, and we would like him to reach the bathroom on his priority list so our better halves will visit overnight (I live 600km away so a visit means a few days rather than lunch)

   Then there is the whole learning process with hand tools. I'm not as vocal about this as Adam, but I ave Three stationary tools (good drill press, lathe, and 16"bandsaw) and a hand-held router. Its as much an economic decison as style. The bandsaw was bought to prepare stuff for the lathe - its brilliant for that and I enjoy the lathe a lot more, but it is also handy for other stuff. I have looked at table saws and thicknessers, and in the list of family priority (kids education and music) this is pretty low.

   So the economic issues are real. I figure it will take me about a day to make a plane for complicated ovolo, particularly if I can use the hacksaw blade. If its for a one-off I can use a less than ideal timber (no idea how to source that beech stuff here). So the $ cost is small. Jury-rigged router table and suitable bits, assuming I can match the shape will probably run to $150, which is about equivalent to a days army reserve pay. I actually don't know the answer to this one, but suspect that the desire to work up to the panel raising planes will win the day.

   Thanks for the suggestion though

   David

1. 
   hdgis1 | May 05, 2006 04:21pm | #10

   OK. Well I suppose thats a pretty clear answer! lol

2. 
   mwenz | May 05, 2006 04:56pm | #11

   Like Larry said, a plow of some sort is very handy to use in making moldings. We live in a Vic that family built in 1897 and some of the moldings and window sills needed remaking. I had some of the family's tools which helped build the place and augmented those with ones I picked up via dealers like Lee.

   The advantages of a plow to waste material is that it provides relatively even channels to guide the other molding planes, and allows one to concentrate on creating an even profile.

   As well as Larry's suggestion of a side bead for the wide board, it can even be a seperate piece made by a nosing plane or a hollow and applied--assuming one can match the radius. Same could be said of the astragals. Be a little bit more work in one sense, but a built-up molding can go rather quickly once a plan is made for sticking the molding and a sequence of work determined.

   This is all easy to write form my vantage point, but not knowing the dimensions of the pars which make up this molding leaves any help a theoretical one.

   Take care, Mike

1. 
   Patto | May 08, 2006 04:47am | #16

   Thanks to everyone for the comments.

   Speaking to my father (owner of the house) this morning - I thnk he is going to try and outsource this after all. He was visiting a brass foundry (looking to remanufactur a couple of bits for an old Stutz) and next door was a moulding place that might be able to do the job.

   Still interested in the moulding planes though (problem with multiple stakeholders)

   dave

5. 
   cowtown | May 06, 2006 10:01am | #12

   10-15 metres= 30-45 ft

   ie 3 or 4 8' lenghts....

   you got a two piece moulding, as far as I can see in the picture

   The wide piece has a half round, easily cut with a router- done.

   The smaller piece; well Larry suggested handplanes, but that's what he makes and sells ral good, . and no doubt a hollow would cut them hemispherical shapes real good. but I'm gonna suggest that you simply cut as much waste away with a table saw, and grind a scratch beader to match the profile and have at er.

   you may even have to make a specialty handle for the scraper/scratch beader, but it wouldn't take the whole day yu porpose it would take you to make the plane. In fact, if you started at 8Am, you'd be cutting wood by 10am, and by noon or 1pm you'd have yer 4 lengths of 8's stock cut to an equivelent shape.

   Alternatively, you could start at 8 AM, make a profile, send it to the arch moulding folks at 10 AM, and 10 to `4 days days later they might be calling you to tell you that yer 40' of moulding is ready......

   I guess it depends if you wanna absorb the delay.

   and it's entirely possible that a combination of a plane cutting the hemispherical sturr coupled with a profile scraper might be even more effective.

   I looked through my St. Louis millwork catalogue moulding section of 1900, and there wasn't any profile that matched even remotely matched the stuff you posted.

   Eric in Cowtown.

6. 
   BossCrunk | May 08, 2006 06:16pm | #18

   The exact shape you need is transferred to mylar or Bristol board to become your template.

   The shape is traced, using the template of course, on the ends of the section(s) of stock to be worked into the moulding.

   The next step is *usually* to cut a series of rebates (rabbets) to remove bulk stock but leave enough over the curved parts so that they can be worked with the appropriate cutter (Stanley 55 + a few hollows and rounds as Larry mentioned).  This is somewhat of an acquired skill - knowing where to start cutting the rebates and when to stop and all that.

   I've looked at  your very nice drawing and the moulding can be run entirely with a Stanley 55 (with a full set of stock cutters), but would be /could be done more efficiently with a set of hollows and rounds at your disposal (in addition to the 55).

   Obviously, a dedicated moulding plane, purchased or made, makes cutting the moulding itself pretty much a piece of cake - after a trial run or two of course.

   http://www.hyperkitten.com/woodworking/molding.php

   This link will give you an idea of the process...

   
   

   ---

   Edited 5/8/2006 2:27 pm ET by BossCrunk

1. 
   Patto | May 09, 2006 12:59am | #19

   Boss

   That looks practical. I have a simple but big cove to reproduce (2m of cornice in a size nobody here has made since the 70's). Seems like an ideal task to leap into.

   One of the fun parts of this site is that every seems to assume you will own a table saw.

   By-the-way - like the 'shop' photos. Did you move the bench in specially for this task?

   Dave

1. 
   BossCrunk | May 09, 2006 03:09am | #20

   That's not my website, just one I ran across.