Not wanting to Hijack the thread on Plow Planes, I have some questions regarding the use of hollows and rounds in making moldings.
Traditionally, were these the primary tools for making moldings? Or were complex molders used when there was a great deal of molding to be made and H & Rs relegated to minor trimming, modifying profiles and matching short length molding profiles.
I have successfully made short lengths of molding using hollows and rounds (and rabbet planes) but it was a real trial of both my patience and my recollection of geometry. I cannot conceive of running enough molding for a house (for example) using H & R’s alone.
Was making moldings a specialty trade where special fixtures and skills were employed or could the run of the mill house joiner run moldings using these simple tools and forgotten techniques?
Garrett Hack in his hand plane book describes making a cornice molding and I have a copy of “The Complete Woodworker” Ed. Bernard Jones that goes into simple profiles using a Universal Plane. But I am not aware of much written about moldings with 18th century tools.
Are there any 18th or early 19th century texts that go into methods of making moldings?
Best Regards,
David C
Replies
Hi David,
As far as I understand and have seen, a lot of larger moldings are actually plaster. Specially the really fancy ones.
That said, I have made a lot of moldings by hand from wood. For furniture, the scale is typically small, except crowns on tops of cabinets, which for what I make are fairly simple and most likely built up from smaller runs into a wide profile.
For smaller moldings, say below 1 1/2" in width, I use complex molders. Simple and quick in decent wood. With the shear number and variety of vintage complex molders available to us, I think these wre oft used planes as regards furniture.
For larger moldings or build-ups where I use my H&Rs, it is in combination with plow planes. Plow planes waste the cove areas and provide a "groove" for the hollows to run in so I don't need to use battens for guiding.
The link below shows a sequence [slightly off in sequence due to time between the molding I made and when I drew the graphic] for making a large molding. As you can see, the plows were sometimes run at an angle. That's because I used a #55 which allows the fence to tilt. One could do the same with a plow running against purpose-made battens with the desired angle cut in or even riding against its edge I suspect, but I haven't tried it.
Small graphic:
http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/temp/molding_sequence_sml.jpg
Larger version:
http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/temp/molding_sequence.jpg
I apologize that this post doesn't answer the historical questions one bit. And I look forward to reading more knowledgable responses.
Take care, Mike
who is nearly bookless when it comes to old tools and methods...
David,
Because of the cutting geometry of many complex molding planes, they're not very well suited to hogging off material. Heavy stock removal can be helpful when making moldings other than relatively small profiles. As Mike said and you alluded to, it depends on the situation.
One of the best things that's happened around here is Don McConnell's decision to accept our invitation to join us. He's one of the most dedicated and brilliant people I've ever met. He's also familiar with all the old texts on woodworking, at least it seems so. Unfortunately many of the old trade techniques weren't documented.
Because of our shared interest in all this we ended up focused on many of the same things but approached our interest differently. Comparing notes and observations has been enlightening. Over the course of the last year and a half we've had frequent discussion about different aspects of this, often leaving me wishing I had recorded a conversation or had the time to write an article. Don's research, a few amazingly fortunate acquisitions to our study collection, and books on 18th Century Furniture, architecture, tools and moldings have made things pretty clear for us.
Through discussions with customers, craftsmen and tool collectors we know what people would like to be able to do. We know what tools they're looking for and what the tool collector community thinks was done. Infrequent fortunate passages in old texts and old catalogs give us a slightly different picture. We now know one of the types of planes necessary for making moldings with hollows and rounds is rarely even discussed. In eleven years of making planes for people who'd like the capability to make their own moldings, we've had only one request for these necessary planes.
Larry,
I wonder if you would give your thoughts on the theory proposed in one of the collectors' journals (EAIA, MWTCA) that complex molders were more popular in The US than England because of the less than adequate training resulting from the American's abbreviated apprenticeship period, esp as the 19th century progressed.
Have you found that American complex molding planes exist in greater numbers than British ones? And do you have thoughts on whether common American shop practice would make it more (or less) likely that complex molders are an American anomaly?
Regards,
Ray
Larry wrote:
"We now know one of the types of planes necessary for making moldings with hollows and rounds is rarely even discussed. In eleven years of making planes for people who'd like the capability to make their own moldings, we've had only one request for these necessary planes."You've piqued my curiosity if no-one else's, Larry. I'd be guessing that it would be a mini-scrub plane of sorts, but it is a guess.Is it possible to elaborate??Cheers,eddie
David,
I doubt cabinetmakers had or used many complex molders. Most accounts list just a few different shapes and hollows and rounds, the latter often referred to in early accounts as "creasing" planes. I suspect they didn't see enough repetition in any one shape to justify a special tool. The Seaton chest has a set of ogees, and a few other shapes as memory serves, then a half set of hollows and rounds.
House joiners had more planes. The planes I encounter are almost all victorian era joiners' planes- many for very specific and identifiable applications.
Making moldings using H&R's IS a bit tricky. Depending on the molding, you may need to create fences- either applied (rarely) or plowed in. You can also free hand moldings. Wasting material for a complex mold can be tricky business too. Most complex molders don't have fences large enough to allow much of a savings by wasting. I've seen some applied fences and that may be the reason.
I find making larger moldings fairly time consuming. I've made a few 100 feet of a simple quirked ogee for baseboard a couple different times. In pine this isn't so bad when you have the plane. But I've spent as much as 45 minutes making 8' moldings for furniture. Part of my trouble was that I was stupid and built a 6' work bench.
Adam
Thanks to all (so far)!
My problems with molding have been many.
1. How to hold the stock (I have a short Sjobergs bench 60-inches).
I wonder if there was a large "sticking board" employed? Or some other fixture. Holding a 12-foot long springy pole still so you can accurately strike a profile onto it is very tricky.
2. How to waste out material (drawknife, scorp, rabbet and plow planes) recently I lucked into a badger plane that looks like it might be a help here.
3. Maintaining a consistant profile. Most important when coping joints.
Of course with experience there will be improvement. I just think that descriptions of the techniques in any kind of detail are few and far between.
Larry, it seems like your post ended just as you were about to tell me what plane I was missing! Will the answer be in your new video series?? ;^)
Don't keep me in suspense, I promise to buy a copy!!
David C.
Hi Again, David...
I agree with Adam in that an individual cabinetmaker probably had limited complex molders. But...how many did they need? Really, a couple profiles and the H&Rs take care of about anything. My point concerning the variety and quantity still available to us today was simply meant to express my belief their use was prevalent.
1. How to hold the stock (I have a short Sjobergs bench 60-inches).
I wonder if there was a large "sticking board" employed? Or some other fixture. Holding a 12-foot long springy pole still so you can accurately strike a profile onto it is very tricky.
Could be. I also think many a bench was longer than what you and I evidently share: a 60" long bench. The way I do it is to start with the far end with the stock at or near the end of the bench. I work back towards the near end. As complex molders are self-limiting on depth, once the cutting stops I reposition the stock off the bench and begin again.
On H&R work, that is a pain, but also can be done. I obviously work the shortest piece I can in order to eliminate as much shuffling as possible. But when I need to slide the workpiece, one just needs to do each plow groove in sequence on the entire workpiece. Holdfasts help make the moving faster. Then start all over with the H&Rs.
3. Maintaining a consistant profile. Most important when coping joints.
Profiles are scraped to even them out. Same with blending scarf joints. Thank goodness I mostly make moldings for furniture! Shorter pieces. Less worry about lining up profiles.
As regards profiles, if and when a plane maker decides to reproduce profiles...my wish is they would do so with the smaller profiles. I was recently given a 250 year old English complex molder. It creates a lovely little profile. Perfect for the smaller furniture I have made in the past. To me, it is the smaller profiles which are hard to find in great shape.
http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/uk_workshop/items_0005a.jpg
Take care, Mike
Mike and David,The problem I have with repositioning the stock is that I have no good way to stop it from sliding. A lot of times, architectural moldings are soft wood. So enough clamp pressure to resist the force of planing crushes the molding. And with moldings there is often no good place for a clamp.There are a couple solutions. One is to nail the bloody thing to the bench. Another is to create the molding on a wider piece then rip off the molding after its done (I never do this).As far as supporting the molding on the bench I doubt 9' sticking boards were used. A batten holdfasted to the top works. This is one reason why its important to have the planing stop near the edge of the bench. Note that FWW's editors panned a workbench for this reason in T&S. Maybe they have not done this work. (I recommend this issue and that article btw. Had I reviewed those benches (for hand tool work only) I probably would have had different answers, though.)The other thing you can do is clamp the batten to the front face of the bench and use a nail in it as the planing stop. In that case, the front of the bench is the lateral support for the molding.Otherwise, a consistent profile is not required. This does not effect coping- you cope to the profile where you mate. (sash is different and was cut with individual planes) I only scrape when I have to (knots etc).Mike, That square ogee is beautiful.
Mike, That square ogee is beautiful.
I was so elated when I opened the package from Alf. We did a small tool exchange. Neither knew what the other was sending, except she knew one item from my end was a saw. That was it. Not what kind, etc., and what I asked in exchange was that she send me something from a car boot around where she lives [beautiful area].
She sent me 6 items, all wonderful. But that molding plane is simply an elegant profile. And small, which is certainly hard for me to find.
Long Work Holding
Whilst plowing the grooves, I simply use a clamp and or a holdfast. But I do use a batten against the back of the molding. Almost never an end-of-bench stop, at least on stuff longer than the bench as I would just have to lower it once I stuck the first bit and leave it down. The still squared edge of the board nearest me is the guide for the plow. I work the plow from the furthest groove from me to the nearest.
Once plowed grooves are in place, I use either a screw clamp at one end or the other of the bench. Often there are a couple layers of a towel between the jaw and the wood, at least once the profile progresses. As for H&Rs, by using plowed grooves to guide the H&Rs the profile lines up well enough for my use. At least if I bring the profile down properly.
I cope inside corners but the outside corners are mitered. It is the mitered corners which cause most line-up issues for me. That is why a run needs to be cut linearly so there is as little variance as possible. Regardless, though, I have found curved scrapers can quickly blend in what is necessary for the eye 6 or more feet away.
I do at times rip molding from a larger board. Especially small profiles. I've done that with two items in my house. One is the window stop ogee molding. The other is the picture rail [got a neat story about the molder for that, but won't bore y'all here.].
The profiles I use for the house moldings is always painted as was the original. So it is made from Poplar except in the office. That room was stained cvg Doug Fir and so I have used it for the rebuild.
David...keep persevering. I think that at some point you realize I'm an idiot and something else will suddenly click and you'll find what works well for you. I do think most of the challenge is clear layout: I draw the profile using a template on each end of the board and carry where the plow lines need to be for a couple inches on the face. From there, it is "merely" removing wood. I use the stop on the plow to limit how deep I go, but I use those layout lines to set the fence and trust it will be proper.
Well, enough rambling. I got up early to work on emails and PMs.
Take care, Mike
I think it was simply nailed to the bench and a inch or so was sacrificed off each end.
That's how I handle it.
David, I'd like to say more but there's a lot of time and money being invested in this and most of it isn't mine. Don is doing this particular dvd and there's no way I'd say anything that might undercut his effort.Ray, I just don't know the answer to your question. There's a huge time span and a lot of cultural, social and economic factors involved. I do think the collectors you've been talking to are painting with a wide brush, too wide to be of much value.The Seaton tool chest is a remarkably complete set of tools and in no way some primitive relic. Even though Benjamin Seaton was a cabinet maker, one could use those tools to do a pretty good job of reproducing the complex architectural moldings of the Wren and Georgian period. These are widely revered and on a par with Chippendale furniture for artistic merit. Those moldings would be impossible to make with individual complex molding planes. I suppose today's five axis CNC machines could duplicate those moldings but the machines and tooling would have to be state of the art. That Seaton tool chest represents a fully mature technology and it has taken 300 years to evolve machines with the same capability.
Larry,
Fair enough, I'll wait for the DVDs, they sound great and very timely. In the meantime I'll need to add a pair of snipe bills to my arsenal and maybe one of those sliding, bouncing fillesters too! ;^)
David C
I'll wait for the DVDs, they sound great and very timely.
I agree. My thanks to Don and you for doing this.
In the meantime I'll need to add a pair of snipe bills to my arsenal...
Or a side snipe for both planes in one body...I have never "seen" the need for snipe bills. But I'm gonna speculate that it is because I have never used one or seen how they're used.
... and maybe one of those sliding, bouncing fillesters too! ;^)
Now, David, those are two distinct planes. The bouncing one is for rough sawn and hewn wood. Creates a nice rebate despite the uneven surface...
I would add another plane profile which has intrigued me for years is the side rounds. Don't know exactly how I would use them either, but I have watched for them so I could play with a pair.
Ahh. I sure hope all this leads to a resurgence of molding planes. There are so many profiles I have wanted, mostly that I have never seen in vintage form, that I would save my pennies for if new.
Take care, Mike
Seems like I read somewhere that moulding profiles have been used to indentify makers so this would suggest that they did in fact use complex moulders but only had one or two.
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