Replies

1. 
   patternmaker | Aug 13, 2004 02:42pm | #1

   Hey Jelly:

   I have made many sets of special shaper knives from bevel edge shaper steel available from most mill supply houses. I have only used the standard bench grinder and on occasion one of the hand held high speed grinders for detail.

   I do not recommend this for an inexperienced user.

   If not properly installed and balanced, this can be very dangerous. I certainly would not use this method of split collars and separate knives with any shaper with a spindle diameter less than 3/4"diameter.

   If you want to learn more about this,the geometry for laying out the shapes of the moulding cutters,

   has been described in early issues of FWW,as well as early issues of the "How To Do It" Delta books.

   Work Safely¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬PAT¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬

2. 
   Steinmetz | Aug 13, 2004 03:06pm | #2

   If you're talking of a single edge cutter, you must have a  special arbor or fixture to clamp the blade in place.

    Make a sheetmetal template of the outline required.

    Use a blank of tool steel (Hardened) and coat the 'Blank' with DYKEM Blue.

   Position the finished template upon the blank,and using a sharp scriber, mark out the outline.

   Do this on both sides just in case you should rub off the first side.

    Grasp the blank in a pair of Visegrip pliers and grind a little at a time on a coarse grinding wheel.

   Frequently dunk the hot blank in water to prevent burning or annealing the blank.

   When getting close to the outline, use a fine grit wheel and finish to the line,   (dunking all the time.)

   When satisfied with the result, re blue the blank on both sides. 

   Note: the blank is now ready for relieving. depending on the rotation of the spindle, and the orientation of the cutter in the fixture, you must 'Undercut' (OR, relieve the back side of the cutter to gain clearance

   (Only the cutting edge should be sharp) Use a hemorphidite calliper to scribe a parrallel line on the back (Non cutting) side.

    Slowly grind and 'Back bevel' away material to that new line, BUT, only up to the cutting edge!( Dunking all the time.)

   The final work will require a few 'Slip stones' to hone the edge to a sharp edge without 'Burrs'  Slip stones,( Used with light oil,) come in all shapes Flat ,square, three sided ,round and tapered round.

    A good thing to have when sharpening unusual shapes (Like gouges and punches etc. Steinmetz.

   Since the cutter is not balanced,( As with 2 or 3 bladed cutters,) keep the cutting speed down also the feed rate.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 8/13/2004 7:11 pm ET by steinmetz

3. 
   notDusty | Aug 13, 2004 05:43pm | #3

                 Jellyrug ,

         A standard grinder works fine . I use an 8 " and a smaller 6" . the different diameters allows you to use different size and shaped grinding wheels. For the best results I try and use white sugar stones to keep the heat down and minimize losing the temper of the tool steel. If you don't already have one invest in a stone dresser, for me this was the key to make certain shapes. You can use it to clean the stones and to actually shape them to enable you to get into tight spots or whatever.Pink stones are good to take meat off then finish up with the white stones. I have been grinding knives for over 20 years and am certainly not an expert , but the wood dosen't seem to know the difference. It takes some of our tooling limits away and opens up new horizons a plenty. Have fun , be careful when you first spin the collars as other posters have mentioned balance is crucial to safety and smooth operation.Once proficient at grinding there will be very few profiles that you can not do. Better yet like a key cutter profile grinders are made for grinding knives and such, A company named Viel or Veil makes a small one for about $600.00 . But you need a pattern or one knife to match .

                                 good luck                dusty

1. 
   Jellyrug | Aug 13, 2004 11:55pm | #6

   Dusty,

   Thanks for the information.

   What size spindle do you use and is it slotted or solid?

   If solid, how do you install the cutters?

   Willie

1. 
   notDusty | Aug 14, 2004 06:31am | #7

                Jellyrug ,

        I use a 1" spindle to run my collar knives , it is a solid spindle . The cutters or knives slide into the collars and you reef down on the same nut you use to hold other cutters .There are several varieties of steel and collars , mainly some are called lock edge and the ones I use are just a smooth key way that you slide the knives in and out to set them .  When you said you need to try and remember how to harden the steel , I think part of the beauty of using white type stones , the steel is ground at a lower temp and mine have not lost the temper or hardness. You need to take it slow. The H.S. tool steel is already hardened when you buy it .

                             hope this helps a bit        dusty      

4. 
   migraine | Aug 13, 2004 06:22pm | #4

   There are many companies out there that do custom profiling for a reasonable amount, along with some brands of stock profile knives.  I would suggest you try Ballew saw and tool 800-288-7483.  They have a great catalogue that includes amana, WKW, LRH, FS etc.  they also do custom steel knives for around $18.50 +/- an inch/per knife.  For price and quality, my favorite line of cutters is Freeborn.

   A 25" bar of steel runs around $100-$180, depending on thickness and width.  I have a Viel profile grinder that works great for me and they run around $800 now. 

   Another poster mentioned that If you are not experienced with setting up shaper tooling, and the geomerty of grinding knives, don't do it.  It can be dangerous and a expensive learning curve.  Find a good local shop to do you custom work.   

   When I lived in So Cal, I used D&D(now Alliance) Saw in San Diego. and a small mom and pop shop Called Bairco in Corona, Ca.  Bairco became my favoite for custom carbide cutters.  I believe both will ship UPS.

   About your shaper, buy as large of a horse power as you can.  You will  find more and more uses for it as time goes by.  5 hp is not too big/small.  Most of my work is on a 3/4" spindle, but I do have 1'' and 1 1 /4" spindles.

1. 
   Jellyrug | Aug 13, 2004 09:26pm | #5

   Thanks to all for the excellent advice.

   I have my eyes on the Grizzly 3hp shaper, with molding heads 2" and 3 ", which I will use with my own knives. If you can make your own cutters, this is where the true value of a shaper comes into play.

   When I was a kid, I remember my father making all his own cutters. He use to grind sharpen and harden, using tool steel.

   I'll have to do a bit of referencing on types of steel available and how to harden, as this was a long time ago.

   Willie

5. 
   RickL | Aug 14, 2004 11:16am | #8

   I would do a lot of research on the subject first. As suggested FWW has had articles in the past and the old Delta book on shapers is pretty informative. I would stick with lock or notched edge steel. One mistake is going to be possibly fatal. I've ground them with a simple 6" bench grinder but with all the inexpensive tooling available it's cheaper to buy off the shelf I find.

   http://www.wmooreprofiles.com/shapcol2.htm

   http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/swmf.pl?read=346638

   Get The Spindle Moulder Handbook by Eric Stephensen. The most advanced book on shapers I've seen.

   http://www.stobartdavies.com/system/index.html

   If you want to live dangerously check out the French head spindle. The simplest cutterhead for short run shaper jobs. This type of spindle is banned in Europe and I can see why. Never tried it myself but the idea of using softer carbon steel for short runs was intriguing plus one edge would allow for quick profile shaping. Not advocating this type of head by any means. Have you looked at the LRH shaper heads?

   http://www.lrhent.com/mshaper.htm

   
1. 
   Jellyrug | Aug 15, 2004 08:54pm | #9

   Rick,

   Thanks, that was very helpful. I have contacted Moore profiles, waiting for a reply.

   Willie

1. 
   RickL | Aug 16, 2004 12:20pm | #10

   Get this book...out of print but can still be found if you know where to look. It has a good fundemental how to on make knives using bevel edged steel. The lock edge steel is the modern upgrade but the principal is still the same. Don't know if you are a hobbiest or doit for a living. If you do it for a living it's cheaper to have them ground by a service.

   Getting the Most Out of Your Shaper

   Price: $14.95

   Rockwell Manufacturing Company: Rockwell A Deltacraft Publication. "A complete manual covering all phases of shaper operations in the home workshop with over 250 photographic illustrations and line drawings." No marks anywhere. Pages crisp clean and bright. Binding tight and square. Light cover rubbing. SEE the book you are buying! Scans available for all books! Quick courteous service! Satisfaction guaranteed! H Crafts and Hobbies - Woodworking Jacket Condition:No Jacket as Issued Hard Cover 1954 Book Condition:Very Good - Woodworking Power Tool Shaper Instructional Guide Technique 012281

   Merchant: http://www.FrugalBooks.com Inquire about this book.

   http://www.frugalbooks.com/?page=shop/flypage&product_id=38831&keyword=getting+the+most+out+of+your+shaper&searchby=title&offset=0&fs=1&CLSN_830=109264869583050f0fd01e215fdb7d20

   Edited 8/16/2004 5:32 am ET by rick3ddd

   Edited 8/16/2004 5:33 am ET by rick3ddd

1. 
   Jellyrug | Aug 16, 2004 07:14pm | #11

   Rick,

   Thanks a million for the help. I don't do woodwork for a living, running a food factory here in the CA central valley, running tomatoes as we speak at around 300 tons an hour.

   I give woodwork my absolute best shot though and my interest with custom cutters is not so much saving money, but rather the pleasure of doing and having something different to conventional profiles.

   I'll take your advice and order the book.

   Thanks so much.

   Willie