Replies

1. 
   BobSmalser | Nov 27, 2003 09:14am | #1

   "I need to lap joint quarter inch boars, glue them up then steam them to create a curved insert that is over a foot wide by 82" long.

   Can I use Tilebond 2 to glue the 1/4" inserts up and then steam them to fi the curve of the sleigh bed? Do I need a different glue? - or can I get double faced cherry plywood that is 82" long by special order?"

   I don't understand how you are making the rails for your headboard panel.

   But you can construct a simple steam box out of glued styrofoam sheeting in any dimension you like...with the biggest pot you can find setting on a burner and a simple funnel made for the pot top out of thin sheet metal leading to a hose going into your box....the box sloped to drain water out a drain hole.

   Outside-stored wood steams better, but kilned stock will work...you have shallow radii I suspect.  Quarter-inch panel material will bend easily....5/4 headboard rails will take a couple hours of steam.  Make cauls to bend them over and allow for a bit of springback.

   Titebond ain't your glue for 2 hours of steam...use a boatbuilder's epoxy like West System.

   You can also laminate thick rails, but that's another post.

1. 
   twotowers | Nov 29, 2003 12:08am | #7

   Bob thanks for the information.

   The rails will not be bent only the back - which I am planning to make 1/4 inch thick using a wide rabbit (or boat builders lap) I will take 1/4 inch stock and route it it 1/8 inch and glue together to form a stock about 83 inches long by 12 to 17 inches (wider is for the headboard).

   I would imagine steaming this would be about half an hour or less as the curve will only be - maybe 2 inches off flat. I am concerned with 1/8 inch laps breaking and the glue coming undone. Will water proof tile bond hold up for a half an hour in a steamer -and then accept a mild bend?

   Regards,Jim

1. 
   BobSmalser | Nov 29, 2003 12:33am | #9

   I've done no shortage of both laminations and steambending...and sometimes steam wins if the materials for the caul become too costly either in size of inability to reuse.

   Your call.

   Thin stock bends easily with only minutes of steam...but you have to pull and test to see.  I don't think you've much danger of cracking with the shallow radius you describe.  And if the wood is straightgrained, your bending form can be as little as three stakes driven in the ground next to your steambox tied together at the top with a cap board.

   And steambending requires boatbuilder's glue....4-1 epoxy or phenol resorcinol.  You could try resin, Titebond or poly (better choice)...but why risk the man-hour investment involved, as cleaning a failed gluejoint if it doesn't work requires remachining?

   Edited 11/28/2003 4:39:16 PM ET by Bob

   Edited 11/28/2003 5:33:59 PM ET by Bob

1. 
   twotowers | Nov 29, 2003 11:36pm | #13

   Bob,

   Would it be easy to steam 1/4" double sided cherry plywood? Is that as east as steaming 1/4" cherry? Would there be a problem with the cherry veneer chipping or splitting?

   Jim

1. 
   BobSmalser | Nov 30, 2003 12:24am | #15

   Steam only solid wood.  Exterior ply steams safely but wasn't designed for that kind of application...the laminations are very likely to crack later.

2. 
   ian | Nov 27, 2003 02:38pm | #2

   Jim

   Last year I made a sleigh bed for my son.  For a plan I followed was that in Jeff Miller's Beds (Taunton) p 144 ff with some modifications to the rail to head board joint. 

   For the curved head and footboards I made the bending form as described by Jeff and glued two sheets of 3/16in 3 ply (face veneered in the same species as the bed) together with ordinary PVA – needed a truck load of clamps!   Thinking about the project after it was finished, things I would do differently next time are:
   use ordinary 1/4in light coloured ply to make the curved head and foot boards – the special face veneers were really too thin and damaged far too easily.  I'd then aim to stain the ply to colour match with the rest of the bed.  
   Alternatively, because the ply supplier I frequent stocks aircraft ply (essentially 4' x 8' sheets of veneer between 1/32" and 1/8" thick) I could make my own "ply" to the shape and thickness I want – again aiming to colour match by staining.
   use epoxy – primarily for the longer open time

   because building the bending form uses a lot of material, I did think about coopering the head and foot board, also it would require a lot less clamps.  In the end decided that smoothing the inside of the resulting construction – a curve about 3' x 2'6"  – was too much like hard work !

   SWMBO now wants me to build a queen sized sleigh, this time with only a head board which will sit against a wall.  So I'm looking again at coopering, but will probably end up going the laminated ply route.

1. 
   twotowers | Nov 28, 2003 11:56pm | #5

   Ian;

   Thanks but can I get cherry venere plywood 80 inchs long?

   If I could I would. Otherwise I need to make my onwn sheet and steam bend it.

   Jim

1. 
   ian | Nov 29, 2003 12:10am | #8

   Jim

   I'm a little confused.  Where I am ply comes standard as 4 ft x 8 ft sheets, plenty big enough for your application.  If you can't get a veneered ply in a big enough sheet, I suggest you laminate two standard sheets of ply in the bending former and once the glue is dry, use veneering techniques (reuse the bending form or a vacum bag) to apply comercial cherry veneer to the faces one at a time. 

   Ian

   Edit: a question: do you want the gain to run from side to side across the head board or up and down?  I'm assuming you want it to run up and down.

   I'm thinking that 1/4 in is far too thin for a king sized head board as it will flex too much when the bed's occupants lean on it.  I'm sure you're going to need some sort of frame (in addition to the top and bottom rails) to support the centre of the panel.  I'm therefore thinking — mill your 1/4 in thick strips, steam bend them, and once they have dried butt joint them together over the support frame.  The clamping arrangement would be very similar to a table top glue up — there'be a caul on top to keep the boards aligned and clamps to bring the joint together.

   Edited 11/28/2003 8:26:55 PM ET by ian

3. 
   robkress | Nov 27, 2003 05:07pm | #3

   My uncle recently made a sleigh bed with the curved head board thing....

   He used the laminated ply method but his form was not made well enough and you can see "dimples" in the head board where the form pressed the ply's together.  But it did work well and the finished product is very lovely if you don't know what to look for.  He also used a boat load of clampls (of course).  I think he used 3 or 4 form boards accross the width not spreading the load of the clamps by sheating the form (which I think he should have done).

   Anyway, if I had to do it, I think I would go laminated ply.  The real work is in the form.  But once you get that done, the rest is just walking in the park.

   Rob Kress

4. 
   TomMGTC | Nov 27, 2003 05:33pm | #4

   Bending ply veneer and a vacuum press worked very well for me. Perfect results.

   Tom

   Douglasville, GA

1. 
   twotowers | Nov 28, 2003 11:58pm | #6

   Wish I had the equipment! Any thoughts on the glue?

   Jim

1. 
   TomMGTC | Nov 29, 2003 01:07am | #10

   I would use a urea formaldhyde glue such as unibond 800 or DAP plastic resin glue  for a bent veneered panel. Vacuum bagging equipment doesn't have to be very expensive. You can get vinyl pretty cheap and if you have a compressor an air powered venturi will work well for a vacuum source. I have heard of some people using a shop vac as well but have no experience with that method. Don't worry about spending a fortune on a form. Most forms can be built for under 40.00 with mdf. Just make sure they are strong enough.

   Try here for vacuum supplies and info. http://joewoodworker.com/veneering/welcome.htmTom

   Douglasville, GA

2. 
   aksophie | Nov 29, 2003 11:18pm | #11

   I will also urge you to consider vacuum veneering. Years ago a sleigh bed commission was my first attempt at veneering. I invested in a bag and vac pump. The headboard and footboards turned out great. There is no springback and you can control exactly the form that you want. Since that project, I am a firm believer in veneering. Now I have three bags and look for ways to use them.

1. 
   twotowers | Nov 29, 2003 11:31pm | #12

   Hi Sophie,

   Don't think a vacuum system is in my plans as I can't imagine using it enough. Would you steam double sided cherry veneer plywood to create a 2 inch arc over 12 to 17 width ( and 83" long) inches if you didn't have a vacuum press? It seems like a small arc that I should be able to make just by wedging the plywood in an arc and letting it dry. I would think if I was only semi accurate in the final shape that I could force it in to the final shape.

   Jim

1. 
   migraine | Nov 29, 2003 11:56pm | #14

   The veneer spitting would be one concern, but the major concern would be the delamination of the veneer and core plys due to moisture.  Not recommended. Most interior plywood is not exterior glue

   If laminating with out a vacuum press is a must, try to find a source in you area that pre-kerfed substaight.  If you are in the So Cal area, try Anderson International in Anaheim Ca.  I believe their number is 714-666-8183.  The have the pre-ferfed material, and a good selection of paper backed veneer.  Wonderful people to deal with.

2. 
   twotowers | Nov 30, 2003 04:57am | #16

   Migraine,

   What does "that pre-kerfed substaight" mean?

   Jim