Replies

1. 
   MikeHennessy | Apr 13, 2009 02:44pm | #1

   "I keep getting small ledge on shoulder"

   As in, the tennon is a bit thicker (by the width of the outer dado blade, I assume) just at the shoulder? If so, sounds like your blade and chippers are mis-matched, with the blade having a smaller diameter than the chipper. If so, the fix is a new dado set or the application of a sharp chisel or shoulder plane to the offending bit.

   But, if you mean the cut is just a bit deeper at the shoulder (a tiny "V"), that's caused by the shape of the teeth on the dado blade, designed to reduce tearout at the edge of the cut. If so, it's no big deal and it shouldn't weaken the joint appreciably.

   Mike Hennessy
   Pittsburgh, PA

1. 
   marcalfa | Apr 13, 2009 04:10pm | #2

   Thank You for your quick reply! Let me re-stat my problem. The cheeks of the tenon are all flat. Ther problem is that  the shoulder of the tenon is not flush on all four sides of tenon. When I cut one side with dadoe blade and then rotate rail 180 degrees and cut the other side, the two resulting shoulders are level. When I now rotate my rail 90 degrees to cut sides of tenon, the resulting shoulder is not level with other shoulder from previous cuts. there is a little step.  I hope this is more clear. Thank You.

1. 
   MikeHennessy | Apr 13, 2009 04:17pm | #3

   Sounds like maybe something is out of square. Double check your miter gauge/guide for squareness to the blade. Use a stop against the fence (short enough that the piece clears it before it enters the blade) to position the piece for each cut. Make sure (clamp to the guide if necessary) the piece does not move laterally during the cutting process.

   Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA

2. 
   WillGeorge | Apr 14, 2009 11:18am | #10

   Ther problem is that  the shoulder of the tenon is not flush on all four sides of tenon.

   I UNDERSTAND EXACTLY. I have no cure though on the TS.. Sorry..

   I rough cut on the TS and take it over to my router table to 'finish fit'...

   My TS is a so called junk from a BigBox... But works well. AND I can rip straight sticks and good Miters on it. But my Delta Tenon Jig does what you describe...AND a Junk tenon jig from China does also! Both about the same!

   Sure wish I knew a cure! And then again there is that VERY SHARP chisel to finish it off!

1. 
   forrestb | Apr 14, 2009 02:29pm | #11

   One of the nice points of the loose tenon is that it makes a flush fit easy. All you need is a precise 90 deg end cut - but you have to do that anyway so it is not any extra work. It is said to be as strong as a mortise/tenon joint.

2. 
   dynamwebz | Apr 15, 2009 05:41am | #16

   Well, I'll tell ya, once set up correctly, my junk jig does not cut skewed shoulders, it works fast, and only cost $55.

   So yeah, I could cut tenons on the TS, then set up my router in a jig and trim to fit, and hope I got everything right. Or I could do everything on the TS with the cheap Chinese jig in less than 1/2 the time.

   Sometimes I mess up and have to trim a shoulder with my cheap and foreign shoulder plane to get a tight fit.

   Or maybe I could go purist and not use any power tools or jigs. But with the amount of furniture I need to build in the next year, and my limited budget, I'll go with cheap Chinese power tools and jigs. I'll become a purest when I grow old and retire and have lots of spare time. That is if I don't loose my fingers because some poor underpaid foreign laborer was too weak to tighten the TS arbor properly.

    

1. 
   forrestb | Apr 18, 2009 07:21am | #17

   Holy Jesus! My comment on using loose tenons was based on my experience repairing a 10-lite exterior door that had dry/wet rot on the lower rail. By using a simple template to cut the mortises in the rail and stile and using my table saw to cut the tenons to width I was able to repair my French Door without outside help. It has been about one year now and a knowledgeable woodworker has commented favorably on the repair. I am amazed at the response!

3. 
   oldusty | Apr 14, 2009 04:56pm | #12

     Sounds like we all have a similar scenario , I do notice the same thing .

     One thing I did was to make the registration block or the piece you butt up to as small as contact as possible to avoid more distortion from any out of square end cuts and such .

     You can also cut the ends on a band saw or even use the right hand saw or as has been suggested clean up with a chisel .

     Also a router set up to do the same may give you a cleaner result . 

       Careful set up and a close adjustment should give you pretty good results as long as all are square and sharp.

      these were all made the same way and the only gap was too tight for a dollar bill to fit in .

          regards            dusty

    

   
2. 
   Frank Vucolo | Apr 13, 2009 04:24pm | #4

   Marcalfa,

   A couple of things come to mind.

   You are probably using some kind of stop block with some kind of miter gauge or sled, to orient the piece.

   As you cut and flip the piece, sawdust can accumulate at the stop block causing a small gap as you reset the piece for the next cut. If this is the case, put a rabbit on the bottom of the stop block to clear the dust and give you good registration.

   Another problem could be that you are engaging a lot of resistance as this piece contacts the dado, causing the workpiece to shift a little. If you are super-aware of this and use great care, you can overcome it. Others add sandpaper to the miter gauge to avoid slipping; still others use some sort of sled or miter gauge with a hold down clamp to lock the piece in place.

   Another solution is to cut your shoulders using your regular blade, carefully. Then set up your dado and hog out the rest of the tenons after that critical cut has been made to your satisfaction.

   Oh, and one more thing. Probably goes without saying, but.... are the ends of your stock cut square before you start this tenon process? If not, even careful attention to the above will result in the problem you described.

   Good luck and let us know how you make out.

   Frank

3. 
   user-259615 | Apr 13, 2009 04:27pm | #5

   Do you mean that the shoulders do not meet all the way round? If so, then your mitre fence is not as square as you think. You've obviously checked this, so the first thing is to check the accuracy of your try square. Remember that any error is doubled when you turn the workpiece over, and the wider the workpiece the more noticeable is any error. It is always the same?

   If you are using a standard mitre fence to support your stock, you could make a double fence for it - just two pieces of MDF, one fixed permanently to the fence, the second screwed to the first, You can then tweak the squareness by inserting slips of paper between the two pieces of MDF, without altering the fence itself.

   Personally I don't like using a dado blade for tenons. It creates a lot of sawdust waste and it's harder on the motor. But havng to make multiple passes on a piece of any size is a pain as is the fact that you have to get the cut spot on to end up with the right thickness, and turning the workpiece over means that you are referencing of two faces, so even the tiniest variation in thickness results results in a different fit.
   I do accept that you can tenons of any size this way, but I prefer to have my workpiece vertical, my blade guarded and make just one cut for each face of the tenon.

   Cheers
   Steve

   Space is more valuable than the junk that occupies it.

   Woodworking jig DVDs and The Ultimate Tablesaw Tenon Jig from http://www.workshopessentials.com

4. 
   davidbrum | Apr 13, 2009 05:08pm | #6

   I always get the same thing when I cut tenon shoulders on the TS. For some reason, when the piece is vertical it registers a little closer to the fence than when it is horizontal. I read an article by Gary Rugowski where he said that he always gets the same thing. His solution (and what I do) is to purposely pull the piece a fraction away from the fence when cutting the small shoulders. Then clean up nice and square with a chisel. Works great.

   David B
1. 
   BrentD | Apr 13, 2009 06:34pm | #7

   I suspect that whatever you are using for a stop block (the fence?), is not perpendicular to the table.  Imagine that your stop or your fence leans towards the fence 45 degrees (just to be extreme).  When laying your stock up to the fence on its wider face, it will slide a lot further to the right before contacting the fence than it will when you put the stock on the edge and slide it up to the fence. 

    

   Brent

    

5. 
   forrestb | Apr 14, 2009 04:34am | #8

   You have gotten some good advice but may i suggest you look at loose tenon joinery? Only requires a router for mortising and precise saw work for the loose tenons. The assembly is easy and allows you to make any adjustments to overcome small errors.

1. 
   dynamwebz | Apr 14, 2009 05:14am | #9

   The Grizzly tenoning jig for $55 works great for cutting tenons.

   http://grizzly.com/products/Tenoning-Jig/H7583

6. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Apr 14, 2009 06:30pm | #13

   Once upon a time I had that problem. Once upon a time I checked all to make sure the miter.. fence.. blade were all sqare to each other but... I still got a slightly different height on the tenon. So.. after checking ALL things I checked the table ZCI and found it slightly proud or tall. I leveled it too the table and now I can say...

   That once upon a time I had tenon shoulders that varied in height but...

   You guess the outcome in my case...

   Sarge..

1. 
   oldusty | Apr 14, 2009 10:18pm | #14

    " and all the little tenons were tucked in tight and slept for the night "

1. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Apr 15, 2009 01:23am | #15

   Only to awake and become little demons again... I cut around 64 last month with no relief in sight. They just keep coming like a human wave attack. You mow em down.. here comes some more. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..

   Sarge..

1. 
   RalphBarker | Apr 18, 2009 05:36pm | #19

   You must be channeling "The Tenoner's Apprentice" - a little known movie from Walt Disney, made before Mickey and the Sorcerer showed up at the studio. ;-)

1. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Apr 18, 2009 07:00pm | #20

   Not sure about channeling a movie Ralph but.. I am guzzling all the Bud Light I can in an attempt to keep the economy moving even though I quit drinking 18 years ago for the most part. Only doing it to be patriotic. :>)

   Sarge..

2. 
   RalphBarker | Apr 18, 2009 09:58pm | #21

   That's great, Sarge. A patriot's elbow is a terrible thing to waste. ;-)

3. 
   oldusty | Apr 19, 2009 07:01am | #22

      Oh Yeah ! that's it !

         "  Sarge "    the tenon whisperer .

                 cheers         dusty

4. 
   dgreen | Apr 19, 2009 08:36am | #23

   I don't know if I would go so far as to say "whisperer". After all he does the rough work with C-4, the fine work with a .45 and the tuning with the 5.56x45mm! 

    

   ................................................

   Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot

5. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Apr 19, 2009 05:03pm | #24

   Fine work is actually done more precisely with a Marine issue.. M 40A1 .308 Winchester with modified square barrel. Sort of a one-shot-one clean shoulder kind of deal and you can do it from a distance which allows you to skip the dust mask. ha.. ha...

   Only two tenons today as I'm working on a 21 x 61 desk top but... 32 on the agenda for next week with a hutch so... grab your ear-plugs.

   Regards...

   Sarge..

7. 
   woodbum | Apr 18, 2009 04:17pm | #18

   Wow! I thought that I was the only guy doing something wrong and having this problem. I use a Delta tenoning jig on a Grizzly cabinet saw and was having the same problem. Except I was not using a dado blade, but instead double cutting my tenons with a Forrest Woodworker II  standard kerf blade. I am still working out a solution after cleaning my shoulders up with a router table and or chisel. Thanks to all for letting me know that I wasn't the only loose part in the shop.