Replies

1. 
   YesMaam27577 | Nov 17, 2003 01:01pm | #1

   is there something bizzare about mahogany that nobody seems to work with it?

   No. Actually, mahogany will look great, and it works very nicely. When I went to Sam's seminar last month, he didn't mention mahogany as a wood for his rockers. He likes to stay with woods that are highly figured -- Claro walnut is his favorite.

   But your chair will look great, it should be a joy to build, and it will match your other furniture. What more could a person ask.

   Aslo, I'm pretty sure that Sam did not specify the entire set of router bits for Woodline. He spec'd the angled rabbets that you got, and he made an endorsement deal -- but the other bits are Woodline's designs. Still, they seem like a fairly good value, if you think that you'll use that many different bits.

   Vast projects should not be founded on half vast ideas.
1. 
   douglesso | Nov 17, 2003 07:49pm | #3

   YesMa'am,

   Thanks for the reply.  I'd love to go to one of Sam's seminars.  I know he does one at Highland every now and then, but other than that how does one find out about them?   You're right about the 66 bit set at Woodline.  Most of the bits are common to any set out there.   I was just trolling for comments about their quality.  Three bucks a bit is a pretty good deal.  Thanks, Doug

1. 
   YesMaam27577 | Nov 17, 2003 09:44pm | #6

   I know he does one at Highland every now and then, but other than that how does one find out about them? 

   Highland Hardware is where I saw him.  The two day seminar cost $300, plus travel. Since I don't live near Atlanta, that meant that the total cost was probably over $1000 (hotels, meals, gas when it was at it highest). There were others there who had come from as far as Oregon.

   And if I hear of another one, I'll gladly pay and go again. Watching and learning from him is an amazing experience.

   As for how to find out about them, I can't help. I was just lucky. I got the Highland catalog in the mail, and noticed the seminar. I called one day later, and paid the fee over the phone. I'm glad I did -- it filled up quickly.

   Keep watching the catalogs. Sam has at least one relative still living in the Atlanta area. So it's likely that he'll continue to do appearances there, so long as his health holds up.

   Also -- concerning the ability to bend mahogany, as mentioned in another reply. I agree with the poster that the fibers of mahogany are short for most bent-wood applications. But if you are following Sam's methods (laminated rockers, and no other bending), then you'll not have a problem.

   As to the softness of Mahogany, you might want to consider something for the bottom-most layer in the rocker laminations. You might want to use a harder wood there. But if that compromises the look that you're after, keep the mahogany. It'll do just fine for the first hundred years.

   Vast projects should not be founded on half vast ideas.

2. 
   johnhardy | Nov 18, 2003 05:04am | #10

   Sam also does seminars several times a year at his workshop in Alta Loma, Ca. Alta Loma is in the Los Angeles, Ca., area. The workshops are sponsored by UC Riverside and if you contact the school and get a catalog you'll see the next class (or two). That's how I attended a seminar, and it was well worth it. Since I live in Los Angeles, the total cost was the cost of the seminar, which I think was about $65.

   Sam is an American treasure, and I'd encourage everybody who has a chance to go see him. He's 88 years old now and I wouldn't wait too long. By the way, the seminar was on a Saturday, starting at 9:00, and when we got there he'd been working in the shop since 6:00 am. He's a workaholic who totally enjoys what he does.

   John

1. 
   douglesso | Nov 18, 2003 09:34am | #12

   John,

   Thanks for the info. I was fiddling with my prototype chair tonight. Any ideas how Sam dado's the back leg joints to meet the seat. The angle on the side is perpendicular to the face and the one across the seat is five tilted out at five degrees. I'm pretty much resigned to building a jig to hold the curved leg precisely while I make the cut. I started to wonder about it, because in all the stuff I've read about Maloof, to include his video, he doesn't show how he accomplishes this. Maybe you saw something at his seminar.

   Thanks for you help. It's quite exciting to retrace Maloof's steps on this chair. Doug

1. 
   johnhardy | Nov 18, 2003 10:00am | #13

   I didn't catch this at the seminar, but in the video I have he explains that he uses router bits that are cut at a 5 degree angle. They're rabbet bits but have a 5 degree angle. There are two of them, one which cants out and one which cants in (for the top and bottom). Highland Hardware carries them and I think Woodline also carries bits like this. If you call Highland just ask for the Sam Maloof 5 degree bits. There is also a 3rd bit which is a straight bit but which has the correct bearing. I have the set of 3 bits but haven't yet started my chair. You know, other projects get in the way ... :)

   Edit ... by the way, there is a guy here who builds Maloof rockers that are spectacular. You can see his work in the gallery. His name is Bill Lindau and if you contact him he can give you first hand information. His id is Blindau in Knots.

   Edit #2 ... there's another thing that Sam does here that you should know about. He uses dedicated routers for this sort of thing. I suspct that getting these bits accurately set (depth) is tricky, so he sets them and then doesn't change them. You'll have to play around with this is you want to use only 1 router.

   John

   Edited 11/18/2003 2:02:40 AM ET by johnhardy

   Edited 11/18/2003 2:12:02 AM ET by johnhardy

2. 
   douglesso | Nov 18, 2003 08:24pm | #15

   I've got a pair of Sam's bits from woodline.  One is exactly and inch in diameter and the other is 1.042 inches in diameter.  Getting the tennon into the seat at the correct angle is not a problem.  The bits work perfectly.  However, cutting the matching slot into the chair leg is.  Trying to figure it out is like trying to slove the rubiks cube blindfolded.  Well, maybe not that bad.  The width of the dado increases slightly on the inside face of the leg, and the five degree angle change from one dado to the next makes it tough to be really accurate.  I'll post some pictures later. 

3. 
   YesMaam27577 | Nov 18, 2003 12:44pm | #14

   Sam cuts the dado in the back of the seat with the special 5-degree router bits (see Woodline). He cuts the dado in the leg before he shapes the leg.

   I'm guessing that he also test-fits the leg before he shapes it. That test fit would allow you to sketch the balance of the shape on the leg, then get to the bandsaw or bench.

   Vast projects should not be founded on half vast ideas.

4. 
   douglesso | Nov 18, 2003 08:27pm | #16

   I suspected that he dado's the groove before shaping the leg, and then matches the template to the dado.  Thanks

2. 
   jonsherryl | Nov 17, 2003 05:49pm | #2

   Doug, the only feature of genuine mahogany that comes up a little short for use in a chair is its density. It is a relatively soft wood with an average specific gravity of only 0.45. This compares to yellow poplar at 0.40 and cherry at 0.47...So, it's borderline in terms of strength. You can compensate for this, in terms of structural integrity, by slightly beefing up the dimensions of spindles and other parts that will experience extreme stress...but it will still have a tendency to dent and wear a little more easily than other denser woods, such as black walnut (0.51) or hard maple (0.56).

   
   

   ---

   Edited 11/17/2003 9:54:16 AM ET by Jon Arno

1. 
   douglesso | Nov 17, 2003 08:01pm | #4

   Jon,

   I've had pretty good luck with Mahogany so I think I'll stick with it.  I may alter my design slightly to beef things up, especially along the back legs.  I plan on using ebony or dyed maple to accent the rocker in a few places.  I really love the feel of mahogany once the grain is filled, but it's a real pain to apply.

   Thanks, Doug

2. 
   4DThinker | Nov 17, 2003 11:06pm | #7

   Jon,

   You don't happen to know the specific gravity of bubinga, do you?  At one time several years ago I made a chair from bubinga.  But then made several copies out of hard maple.  The chair design puts compressive stress on several point or the frame, which the bubinga withstood.  But I had to consirable beef up those spots on the maple versions since the maple would crush at those points.

   4DThinker

1. 
   jonsherryl | Nov 18, 2003 05:22am | #11

   Thinker, bubinga is cut from several species in the genus Guibourtia from Africa. They range in average specific gravity from about 0.65 to 0.78. In other words, the softest of them rank with our domestic hickories and they go up to about the density of our live oak. Bubinga is often touted as a substitute for rosewood, because of its density and attractive reddish color, but it's not typically quite as fine textured or as marbled as the nicer rosewoods (or as oily.)

3. 
   jazzdogg | Nov 17, 2003 09:15pm | #5

   Douglesso,

   I've made some beautiful things from mahogany and thoroughly enjoy working with it. It absolutely glows and is a tactile delight after a sanded-in oil finish has been applied and waxed.

   That being said, however, when it comes to bending, I think I'll stick to species with a comparatively longer fiber like oak and ash; in my experience, mahogany's tendency to break during bending can make it unnecessarily challenging to bend.

   Hopefully the gentle curves of Maloof's sweeping rockers will cooperate with you. Please post photographs of your completed project!

   Best of luck,
   Paul

   Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
1. 
   douglesso | Nov 18, 2003 02:35am | #8

   Jazzdogg,

   Does the sanded oil finish fill the open pores in the grain? I made a large desk and used an oil based pore filler, but it was quite a chore to fill the pores and sand off the excess in areas, and that was a flat desktop.

   Thanks

1. 
   jazzdogg | Nov 18, 2003 04:40am | #9

   "Does the sanded oil finish fill the open pores in the grain?"

   Douglesso,

   You betcha! It's a relatively labor-intensive process, but completely without the likelihood of panic that pore fillers can induce as the clock ticks - especially with water-based pore fillers - and unlike surface finishes, you don't have to worry about maintaning a wet edge.

   For best results, I use Liberon finishing oil. I find it dries more quickly and harder than other oil finishes, and is a bit less sticky/gummy during the sanding process (I've heard that alcohol is one of the ingredients).

   After sanding the raw wood through 220-grit, I vigorously sand-in the Liberon with 220-grit silicon carbide abrasive (I use 1/8th sheets, folded in thirds. Mechanized sanding will ruin your sander). Work in one small manageable area at a time.

   The sanding creates a slurry of sawdust and oil that begins to fill the pores. I wipe away any surplus oil with a rag after 30-60 minutes. Be sure to dispose of the rags carefully to avoid spontaneous combustion!

   Wait a day, and then repeat the process with 320-grit. Wait another day and use 400-grit. Each sucessive wet-sanding session creates a finer slurry that fills the pores a little more. The wet-sanding method does a remarkable job filling end grain.

   You'll have to inspect the surface under good light and wipe away the bleedback about once an hour to avoid "zits" in your finish. This is important on the final coat, less so on the first and second because succesive sanding will remove them.

   I've cut test pieces finished following this method and found the oil penetrated about 1/4-inch into the wood.

   Wait several days and apply wax (I prefer Liberon's Black Bison).

   Let me know if you have questions,Paul

   Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.