I am going to attempt to lay hardwood in my house. This will be the first attempt. All pneumatics at the local rental stores are already taken currently.
I read the manual for the bostitch manual cleat nailer. I am left with the impression that if the cleat is partially driven, the head will not reset, and you will have to strike it again. If true, that makes me think I should consider buying this tool. But it leaves me with a few questions for some folks with experience with a manual flooring nailer:
1) For people that have actually done this, how much of your force do you use to strike the head to set the nail in one blow? 1/4, 1/2, 3/4? Can you compare it to the force you would use to drive a sinker into a stud?
2) Do the results diminish if you take two strikes to set the cleat?
3) Other than the force required to strike the tool, is there another big advantage/disadvantage to using this opposed to a pneumatic?
Replies
Just completed my Kitchen floor and ready for dining Rm. So memory is fresh. Strength? Barney Fife or Hulk Hogan? 16d into wet treated lumber. The nailer maul is about 3lbs. and for me it was a big swing the get the full set every time, what worked best for me was to have wife hold the nailer and me bash it with a two handed sledge swing. The nailer I rented would not reset if the nail wasn't completely set. The manual nailer limits how close you can swing the maul when nearing a wall. My dining room will be done with a pneumatic. I only had to face nail the starter strip and last wall strips because I predrilled the tongues and hand nailed and set the old way. I believe pneumatic palm nailer would make the end strips easier and then hand set nails. Will be trying the palm nailer on the dining rm floor. I belt sanded the sub floor till it was very flat then laid down 30lb felt, The prep work paid off. Only needed to sand the floor with 120 grit with my 5" orbital sander then 180 grit and finished off with straight hand sanding with 180
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
I did about 1000 sq. ft. with a pneumatic. That was tough enough. I can't imagine using a manual nailer.
I just finished a 400 sq.ft. room with 3/4" oak T&G. I bought the manual Bostitch at Lowe's for $139. It will not reset until driven all the way. I set the nails about 90% of the times with one blow, but I wouldn't want to do it all day. I took 3 days to finish the laying of the floor. You may be able to do it faster if you're a little younger than me. One consideration is the sub-floor, if it is OSB you should really use a flooring stapler rather than nails. You will have to hand nail the first few strips because the nailer is to wide to use and it's though when you get to the other side to get enough room to swing the hammer. You want to leave a space about 3/4" wide along the perimeter to allow for expansion of the boards. Lay down 15 lb. felt with a 4"overlay.
Jack
It's been 40 years since I used a manual nailer on hardwood flooring. I was 18 at the time and pretty tough. It was also pretty tough to sink the nails all day by hand. It is not easy to swing that hammer all day. The pneumatic nailers are the way to go. Maybe Arnie could do it easily, but for the rest of us it is best to use the power tool.
I've done this more times than I want to remember. Best way I think is to take a couple of shorts and test nail them on some ¾" subfloor, same as you'll be nailing into. You didn't say what type of wood you're laying down as each species might take a different amount of force.
When it gets too tight to swing the hammer near walls, I used to drill pilot holes in the flooring and use a regular hammer to drive them home. Another option is to drill pilot holes and screw these few pieces down. Then last one against the wall doesn't give you too many options, probably face nail and putty the nail/screw holes .......
If you have the grooves facing the wall on the tight side, cut the bottom off the next to last one, that way you can tip that last piece into place, otherwise you run the risk of cracking the top of the next to last board.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 11/21/2007 8:24 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob
I've got about 10,000 or so of 3/4 finished and unfinished stuff nailed in during the past couple of years. I have not touched my old Porter since I started pounding staples with the bostich. I cuss the hose sometimes but that's usually just before lunch or at the end of the day. I've gotten to the point where I just liquid nail and finish nail the wall courses with a finish nail shooter. Its quick and it stays down quite well.
Doing some of the finished 3/4 stuff with an air nailer, trimming out the base and toe with the air nailer I've become spoiled.
I couldn't recommend the old manual nailer to a first timer without some adult supervision.
Also, I don't even snap lines much anymore. I can make my little laser tool do everything but bring me a beer. I love that little gizmo.
I don't miss it. Carrying those bundles up staircases-- one at a time. Nope. Now and then with air is OK but not everyday. I tip my hat to the new guys-- go get it and I'll finish this chair.
dan
Dear Dan,
Yeah, prefinished finally pushed me to get an air stapler. I had no idea how well they held until I had to tear up a floor that had been stapled. I think that I only hit myself in the face about a half dozen times as my patience wore thin. Talk about tenacious, those things never let go!Happy Thanksgiving.Best,John
John
Its really an ingenious little item. I can't remember which magazine had the article about the staple vs. the barbed nail??
The short of it all is the staple does not sink straight in. The points converge a little giving it a bit of a squeeze. Though the surface of the staple shafts are smooth it has tremendous holding grip.
I still use my manual nailer with the barbs when my son or partner is using the air nailer from time to time. Not much. I find the nailing schedule is most efficient when I feed and chop and the other guys nail. As you know, this is where you quality control the grain matching, stair steps, and keep things "rolling" without standing around.
One thing I haven't read on this thread that I feel is important for all pneumatic tools and particularly important for the nailer: oil that tool. Often. Even the double slam jam-ups are easier to undo when the tool is slick.
By the way- he carries most of the bundles up the stairs these days. My 55th birthday present.
later
Dear Red,
Having laid more flooring than I care to admit to, perhaps I can offer an opinion.
1) I am not familiar with the Bostich manual nailer, but have used the Porter-Nailer which uses a "T" shaped nail. This had a ratcheting action that allows a nail to be set in one blow or several. It is a nice feature and allows for getting closer to walls then then old "one shot" nailers. The technique we used was to partially set the nail and then really ram it home with the final blow. This method is great for pulling together stubborn boards and will often draw two or three rows together. The older "one shots" are not as effective as the ratcheting types.
2) A manual nailer is quite the work out. It beats up your back, shoulder and forearm. As mentioned, you will be swinging a 3lb maul with moderate to heavy swings a few hundred or a few thousand times, so I would put it on par with mixing concrete or shoveling wet snow.
3) When nailing against a wall, keep the nailer back a few inches to keep wall divots to a minimum. Chances are the walls will need some repairs anyway.
4) If you are right-handed, then nailing against a wall to your right will require this technique: Place the nailer in its nailing position with your right hand, on your right side. Place your right foot on the little "tab" that sticks out from the base of the nailer and hold the nailer up. Step away with you left foot so that your feet are a bit wider than your shoulders, now with your right hand, swing the maul from your left shoulder, down across your body to the right and strike the nailer. It feels awkward as H@ll the first twenty or so times, and you will probably miss as often as not, but be patient, it will come. Again, the ratcheting really helps.
The same technique work lefties as well, just everything is on the other side.
5) Wait for the pneumatic.
When preparing my work area I do the following:
1) Whenever possible, check for plumbing and wiring that has been placed too close to the bottom of the subfloor. If you have access to the underneath of your floor, check for anything within say, 3" of the subfloor. Move anything that can be, otherwise mark it out upstairs on your work area as a "NO NAIL" zone.
2) Check for any loose fasteners in the subfloor. Apply screws as needed. Again, keeping in mind about pipes and wires.
3) Sweep and then vacuum the subfloor. Once you start nailing, you will bounce any loose material out of all those little crevices and it will make your life harder than it already is.
(I am assuming that you are doing a straight layout, perpendicular to the joists, no herringbones and what not.)
4) Mark out both ends of the floor joists on the wall.
5) Lay out your paper, across the joists, beginning from the end that you plan on ENDING. This is important. Using a staple hammer, tack down your paper (Tar or Rosin), overlapping approximately 4-6". Now, the reason that you begin your paper from the planned ending will be easy to see once you start nailing. As debris build up on the paper while you are working, you will be able to easily sweep it towards your planned ending with little tendency for material to get under the paper, which is a PAIN. If you do not follow this step, then you will be sweeping material under the paper constantly. It's sort of like petting a cat. If you start at the front, they hair lays flat, start at the tail and you are going against the grain.
6) Using permanent chalk (Red/Yellow etc.) snap lines along the joists. It is it always good to nail into the joists whenever possible.
7) Measure from your ending wall, back to your starting wall and make marks that are parallel to your ENDING wall, a good two or three rows from the STARTING wall. Snap a chalk line to mark out what will be your first row. Screw down (into the joists) some 3/4" plywood or hardwood rips, so that you can lay your starting row (groove side) against it.
8) I use a finish gun to face and then blind nail this first starter row.
9) Switch to the flooring nailer and go to it.
10) As you approach the far wall, there will come a point where you can't swing the maul anymore without hitting the wall. Switch to hand or finish gun to blind nail and the face nail the last couple of rows. If using a finish gun, be mindful of your hands as the nails can occasionally curl back through the face of the flooring, in particular when blind nailing.
11) Now, back to the beginning, remove the sacrificial 3/4" material that we started against. Rip a spline and glue it into the groove of you starting piece and the run your last couple of rows to the start wall.
That's probably enough for now. A couple of hints:
1) If you can't get the flooring to draw together, you probably have a crease in the paper that is trapped between the flooring. No amount of pressure will draw it together, you must remove the piece and the offending material.
2) Keep your butt joints at least 6" apart, row to row. Avoid "stair step" patterns and always have at least two rows separating butt joints that fall in line with each other.
In closing, I would say, wait for the pneumatic. I repeated that on purpose, because it eliminates quite a bit of work.
Best,
John
Edited 11/21/2007 9:14 pm ET by Jmartinsky
"Whenever possible, check for plumbing and wiring that has been placed too close to the bottom of the subfloor."
Amen to that! That 240 line made a bit of a, er, spark. Lesson learned.
Nice post, BTW.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Dear Mike,
240... YIKES! I imagine that you noticed that the first time! I've never hit any wires (that I am aware of) but I don't have very good luck with plumbing. Consider:1) Perforated a heating line. We did the work in the Spring, so nothing showed until the Fall when a section of the kitchen ceiling fell!2) Had a copper pipe blow in the ceiling of a house we had just laid new floors. We assumed from the vibrations. We weren't even done yet!3) Finished laying an entire first floor, in an empty house, on a Friday. Had a washing machine valve let go. It only ran all weekend! Not our fault, but we had to rip up the entire thing and do it again.Best,John
My basement is finished and I could not see the floor from the bottom... looks like I did not hit anything in a 600 sq foot install... I guess I got lucky! Wait for the Pneumatic. I actually purchased one and sold it 2 months later as I do not envision laying a lot of hardwood again any time soon. Sold it on eBay... lost about $35 is all...Drew
Lots of good info provided by many of the above posters, but I'd like to correct a couple misconceptions.
If your house is relatively new (built in the last fifteen years), and if it was built by a reputable builder, and if the original plans were signed of on by a Professional Engineer (PE), then there is no need to lay the flooring perpendicular to the joists. In a perfect world that might be nice, but it is not necessary.
Also, you should not really have to worry about hitting electrical wiring or pipes if you house was built according to code, since code requires that holes in joists be in the middle third of the joists, and wires and pipes run parallel to joists must be fixed to the middle third of the joists.
How can you tell if your house was built properly? One quick and dirty way is to go into the kitchen, rise up on your toes and then drop hard onto your heels. If the dishes rattle you have a problem and may want to lay flooring perpendicular to the joists. When I do this in my two year old house the only thing that rattles is the fillings in my teeth.
With the exception of the kitchen, which is tile, our entire main floor is hardwood all laid parallel ( basically north- south). About half winds up perpendicular to the joists and half winds up parallel. From walking or jumping up and down, it is impossible to tell which is which.
Chris
Dear Chris,
I would like to correct a couple of your corrections. I speak from twenty years of remodeling experience in mostly older homes, (pre WW2) and have seen some fairly scary construction over the years. 1) New homes: Now I am the first to admit that the bulk of my work is older homes, but the bulk of what I have seen built is lightly constructed in my opinion. It is the rare home that I find is built to the standards that you imply. I work in Greenwich, CT which is "Gold Coast" around here and the flooring is to be laid perpendicular to the joists, even if that means cross blocking or reorienting the joists. 2) Electrical/Plumbing: Yes, everything is supposed to be to code. A lot of times it is not. It only takes one goof to cause a few thousand dollars worth of damage. In a lot of older homes that have been remodeled several times, the mechanicals are usually a horror show of brass pipes, mixed with copper, b/x with that great insulation that crumbles and a host of other things. Houses built in the 1960's are notorious for plumbing that is set right against the subfloor. Nevermind things like radiant heat. I never take things for granted. You mention that your home is two years old. Now given, the major movements of a house happen in the first year, so you have already been through that. Here in CT where the studs are pretty much waterlogged, that movement can be considerable. Give your floors another three years or so and you may see some differences, or not. If your builder was very good, or you live in an area of the country that does not have huge humidity and temperature changes, then your floors may be fine. However, I would never advise anyone to run the flooring with the joists without the proper preparations. If you have double subfloors, say two layers of 3/4" plywood, double offset joints, all glued and screwed, then, yes, run the flooring anyway you want. The old method was to run 3/4" T&G subfloors at a 45 degree angle to the joists and then they ran the flooring anyway they wanted. Of course old floors also squeak, so there are some trade offs.Does any of this qualify as "Fine Woodworking"?Happy Thanksgiving!Best,John
Yep. A nice "POP", a bright flash, a bit of smoke and the AC stopped cold. Hmmm. Wonder why? ;-)
You can bet I always check now.
As for heating lines, the good/bad thing about PEX lines is that you can put a nail through them and they won't leak a drop -- at least until the nail rusts out in a year or so.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Dear Mike,
That's such a nice feature that PEX has! Glad that you were OK. Happy Thanksgiving.Best,John
Thanks. extremely useful. I had borrowed a book from the library earlier this year, but your suggestions went beyond the material. I did wait and use the pneumatic. Now I just have the hall remaining, which has led to another post.
Dear Red,
Glad to of been able to help. What is your question about the hallway?Best,John
Oh, I started typing it, but cancelled the post. Basically, the hall and the big room have two very flat subfloors. the "problem" is that they are not on the same plane. It is kind of like butting two desks together, and finding the legs on one side of one desk are shorter than all the others. So the hall slopes away from the big room.
Part of the reason is that the joists run perpendicular to each other for these areas of the house. Add to that some settling on the hall side of the house...
So I was trying to figure out how to properly prep the hall so that I could run all the hardwood in the same pattern. The subfloor is 3/4" ply, and the manufacturer had given the green light to lay the floor parallel to the joists in the small hall.
The hall is "L" shaped, with 48" long coming out of the big room before making the turn. Then the hall is 42" wide, by about 20 feet long. So at the widest part, the hall has 90". All that the manufacturer could suggest to this problem was to use leveling compound.
That seemed silly, as the floors meet at the doorway. At the 90" point, the hall floor is about 5/8" below the plane of the big room. I could have built that up with some additional subfloor, but then that led to having to redo the door to the basement, and then what do I do about the 20' length of the hall around the corner.
So in the end, I just decided to run the floor in the hall perpendicular to the joists, and not create more work for myself.
Dear Red,
OK, I think that I understand. You have a hallway that, drops 5/8" over 90"? If so, not that big of a deal. The rule of thumb in hallways, is typically to run the flooring with the long walls. Now with an "L" shaped hall, some decisions have to be made as to whether the flooring gets turned. If a runner is going to be installed, or it is on the second floor, this becomes less important. There are some "artful" ways of turning the corner, including using a border. As to running the flooring with the joists in a hallway, it is never my first choice and ideally would like to cross block under the subfloor, but like yourself, I have found that if I have to be flexible, the hallway is a good place.Best,John
Edited 12/3/2007 3:48 pm ET by Jmartinsky
Redwoodie,
You have other choices! For example one floor I face screwed.. that is a drilled large diameter holes halfway thru the plank and then ran flathead scews in and put a plug over the hole, with careful plug selection and by aligning the plugs carefully you'd be hard pressed to see where they were installed..
You could also use ornamental nails and install them in the face. Or you can do as I will and drill thru the sub floor and install screws in from the bottom..
That's particularly neat when we are speaking about really wide boards 22 inches wide. It also works if you are installing border trim or doing other unique touches to the floor..
Not every woood floor needs to look like a gym or be as boring putting in..
And don't forget when you are finished to use shellac as a finish coat.
I know but you're wrong! Shellac is a great finish for floors. IMHO everything else is harder to do and more expensive plus not as durable.
please ask any question.. I love to help.
Funny you should mention Decorative head nails, I visited a house that had random width wormy red oak planks(about 1800 sq/ft) that were put down with hand forged nails at nearly two bucks nail. Beyond my wildest budget, but stunning.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Bruce
Did I misread your passage or did you write 2 bucks a nail?
This is a new one for me??
dan
That is correct !! The home owner is eccentric and has more money than brains(well almost). He had the nails especially hand forged for that floor. He also had a die made so that the family crest was stamped into the head.
By the way, I know you said Bostich stapler. But what size ? I've got the dining rm. to lay yet and staples sound more interesting than the old basher!
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Edited 11/21/2007 9:22 pm ET by BruceS
Edited 11/21/2007 9:34 pm ET by BruceS
Bruce
As far as I know, they sell 2"staples for the pneumatic floor nailer I have. In the instructions that I think I lost, I remember seeing directions for changing the white plastic pad on the bottom of the nailer to align the nail entry point if you are installing engineered stuff that is less than the 3/4" thick stuff. In that case you would probably use a shorter staple?? I don't mess with any of that flooring. Here in the central part of NC there is enough flooring work to stay busy 6 days a week sun up to sun down-and that's traditional red oak. New construction is generally subbed out to teams to nail and then another gang comes in later to sand and finish.
In my niche, I am doing rooms and entire floors in older homes with 2 1/4 and 3 1/4" strip flooring. Along with that kind of work comes staircases and newel posts and handrail refits. Lots of people are doing kitchens and bathrooms that they would never have considered years ago with pre-finished flooring. I've come to like that and they seem to be holding up quite well.
I walk away from most of the exotic wood jobs as a general rule. Most of the face nail jobs I have turned down. I try to encourage the owners to consider the future and their investment. A well done wooden floor can last a long time. Along the way, it will need to be refinished. I try to avoid the sanding as a first choice even with blind-nailed floors and opt for the polishing screens and scotch pads to scuff and prep if the old finish isn't too bad. When its bad, out comes the big monster. For somebody like your friend with 2 dollar nails, I can't imagine his face when you go over it with 32 grit sanding belts and take off his initials on every nail?? Not to mention the bright steel heads shining thru. I think it looks like sh@#.
I know there's somebody out there saying: "a good flooring man would reset all of the nails one by one" before sanding. That's a choice. Maybe your friend has that kind of money but most of my customers would choke at the labor cost and happly
I have recently changed to applying shellac as a finish and I have had wonderful results. The customers like the quick drying floor and the lack of the varnish smell.
Good Luck on the work. Its fun to do now and then but it can wear your knees out if you do it day after day.
dan
BruceS
I've seen a lot of differant ornamental nails but I had never thought of having a family crest done on the head,, how cool would that be!
Ugh!. $2.00 each? Guess I'm cooled way down!
The floor was quite impressive. All of the nail holes were piloted and the nails driven with brass hammers. The heads were just shy of upolstery button tac size. Can never be sanded.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Dear Frenchy,
You are too good! Screwing a floor from underneath! It's bad enough doing a deck that way, never mind a floor! It must look great, however.Happy Thanksgiving!Best,John
Jmartinsky
There are tricks naturally, you line up your planks and mark where they fall, then pull the planks back up and drill the required holes from above (drilling up that many holes would sux) to allow for wood movement, it will shrink and swell based on how humid things get) without the pressure from cracking you need to drill larger holes than the screw (I use a 1/4 inch drill bit) which allows the screw to move back and forth based on wood movement.. Then to assure that the head doesn't get pulled thru I put a washer on.
You then put the rosen paper down and then snap your lines to ensure the planks are in the right location.
I use bar clamps up to 8 feet long to squeeze them together but once I'm beyond 8 feet I put blocks in and reverse the bar clamp.
Time of year is critical. I shoot for late,late fall. That way the wood is midway between the swelling caused by summer humidity and the shrinkage caused by winter dryness.
FORGET the manual nailer. Its very hardwork unless you've been doing it for years. Wait or find one you can borrow. I'm in NJ near Philly if you need to borrow mine.
I installed about 1800 sq ft of pre-finished Mirage (really nice stuff by the way) in my old house in NJ and another 600 sq ft in a in-laws.
You may want to consider why the all the pneumatics are gone, they make a hard job quite tolerable. The force you struck the tool does two jobs, setting the fastener and tightening the T&G joint between the flooring.. Plus you will be driving a nail every 8 inches, so lots of nails will be used..
I am not saying that the manual units don't do a good job, obviously they do, but you will wind up with Popeye arms after you are done..
Man my tendonitious in my elbow is just screaming thinking about using a manual flooring nailer, trust me your arm will love you for renting the pneumatic.
Good luck
Edited 12/2/2007 10:26 am ET by BOBABEUI
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